More British light Armor in early WWII

marathag

Banned
Ceme across this
20150801_094132.jpg


From the El Alamein Military Museum.

So, how did this armored oddity come about, and what could for example, the BEF do with these in France, for mobile AT?

Has a bit more punch than the Mk VI light.
 

Glyndwr01

Banned
Ceme across this
20150801_094132.jpg


From the El Alamein Military Museum.

So, how did this armored oddity come about, and what could for example, the BEF do with these in France, for mobile AT?

Has a bit more punch than the Mk VI light.
It's a conversion of the Bren gun carrier, only just proof against small arms fire!
Looks like a stuart (American M3 light tank) turret.
Due to the fact the engine ran down the centre of the back of the carrier it would be difficult to operate and bloody hot on the naddgers of the gunner/loader!

It would have made a small change if they used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Tank_Mk_VII_Tetrarch
in place of the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Tank_Mk_VI#Tank,_Light,_Mk_VIB
as they at least had the ability to face off against the PZ 1 and II.
 
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It's a conversion of the Bren gun carrier, only just proof against small arms fire!
Looks like a stuart (American M3 light tank) turret.
Due to the fact the engine ran down the centre of the back of the carrier it would be difficult to operate and bloody hot on the naddgers of the gunner/loader!

It would have made a small change if they used https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Tank_Mk_VII_Tetrarch
in place of the
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_Tank_Mk_VI#Tank,_Light,_Mk_VIB
as they at least had the ability to face off against the PZ 1 and II.
Or Britain could have bought the Vickers E 6 ton light tank instead of the machinegun armed light takes.

The Poles, Finns and Soviets used them, and the Soviets loved the things so much they built 11 to 12 thousand copies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickers_6-Ton

[URL='https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjs2LmfwpbeAhUCxYUKHSKRBuQQjRx6BAgBEAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fww2db.com%2Fvehicle_spec.php%3Fq%3D483&psig=AOvVaw0ksTfm3maorzoNuHzjS7NS&ust=1540176322867486'] [/URL]
 
there was a prototype Vickers Light Tank with a 2pdr in a revised turret with an open top - but it never went further than that. For mobile AT duties the Australian portee version of the universal carrier would do the job and cheaper.

But really this is going to take a pretty big departure in pre-war thinking - which can be done if the Army re-orientates itself away from the frontier focus to the continent again.
 

hipper

Banned
Hmm at first I thought it was a visually modified Bren gun carrier for deception purposes but the turret seems too detailed.
The Egyptians got a lot of stewart light tanks in 1945 so it may be some bizarre conversion.

The gun looks a bit funny
 
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I know the Aussies put a 2lber gun on a Bren Gun carrier, that could be a useful tank destroyer early war as the 2lber was perfectly capable of dealing with German tanks.
 
there was a prototype Vickers Light Tank with a 2pdr in a revised turret with an open top - but it never went further than that. For mobile AT duties the Australian portee version of the universal carrier would do the job and cheaper.

But really this is going to take a pretty big departure in pre-war thinking - which can be done if the Army re-orientates itself away from the frontier focus to the continent again.

The British Army considered the 2lb AT gun to be artillery and therefore these were manned by Royal Artillery gunners not oikey lowbrow, squaddie infantry types. Oddly when the 6lbs and 17lbs AT gun entered service they changed their tune and allowed these to be attached to and manned by trained infantry soldiers as part of the unit they operated with.
 
Getting back to the OP, I suspect if the BEF had more 2pdr armed light tanks in France in 1940, its probably just means these get abandoned in the retreat to Dunkirk.

The prototype with the 2pdr appeared in 1935 and was extensively tested by the MWEE in 1938 and also by the 9th Royal Hussars with indications that everyone found it a useful design - although the suspension needed strengthening (not uncommon in the later mark Vickers light tanks). The design was rejected most likely because it did not fit with the idea of armoured reconnaissance. - British Light Tanks, David Fletcher (Osprey).
 

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Glyndwr01

Banned
Getting back to the OP, I suspect if the BEF had more 2pdr armed light tanks in France in 1940, its probably just means these get abandoned in the retreat to Dunkirk.

The prototype with the 2pdr appeared in 1935 and was extensively tested by the MWEE in 1938 and also by the 9th Royal Hussars with indications that everyone found it a useful design - although the suspension needed strengthening (not uncommon in the later mark Vickers light tanks). The design was rejected most likely because it did not fit with the idea of armoured reconnaissance. - British Light Tanks, David Fletcher (Osprey).
I would expect a lot more German tanks destroyed!
 
I would expect a lot more German tanks destroyed!
If the Light Tank Mk VI, 2-pdr Tank Destroyer (Fletcher's Description) are still assigned an armoured reconnaissance role then I doubt there's that many more knocked out panzers - tactically they're usage might not change all that much from the MG/15mm Besa armed versions in the role so their impact might not be very much.

If they're shifted to a different role - replaced by universal carriers/armoured cars for the armoured reconnaissance role and used to fillout other British tank formations then they're probably going to get chewed up much like the rest of the BEFs armoured forces did during the campaign.

They might have more of an impact (proportionally) early in the western desert campaign where anything rather than nothing would be of use, against the Italians?
 
Technically a 'Porte is a vehicle that carries an Gun on it's original carriage and allow the gun to be dismounted and used as designed as well as from the back of the host vehicle. The lower two pictures are therefor not 'portee's' as such but self propelled AA guns.
 
I think it doesn't take much to get a 2 pounder A/T gun fitted to pte war British light tanks. The beauty of this is that at the outbreak of war this was pretty much all the British had. Some would be used to flesh out Armoured formations and the ready would be used in the Armoured reconnaissance role AOTL.

They would be more useful than the OTL MG armed tanks in the reconnaissance role as they would be at a distinct advantage to the German armoured cars they'd be up against. But alas most would be abandoned at Dunkirk.

If replacing the Vickers light tanks some would be deployed abroad pre war. They would be very useful against the Italians especially in East Africa where tanks where rare and very useful.

A few would also make it to the Far East where compared to early war Japanese tanks its virtually a main battle tank! How many would it take to save Singapore?
 
Britain was trying to phase out light tanks from 1939 but a lack of pre war investment and poor planning led to them having to go to France with the majority of their tanks force made up of Light tanks ie the Mk VI Light tank and Matilda I - both of which were armed with Machine guns like the Pz1 and Pz II

An obvious answer is the British like other nations (Russia and Poland for example) making use of the Vickers 6 ton design and making this the principle tank design during the Mid 30s.

The later 6 Ton type B designs (actually 7.5 Tons) mounted a gun (typically a 47mm gun - so easily a 2 pounder could be fitted)

And I would expect that had developemnt continued then a heavier say 10-12 ton design would be in Production come 1939

Replace all of the light tanks with the Vickers Design and you can get your 2 pounders!
 

SwampTiger

Banned
The problem for a British light tank with 2 lbr is doctrine. The light tanks were for scouting and colonial policing. They were not supposed to face "real" tanks. With that said, the Belgians built their self propelled anti-tank T-13 close to your idea. The Vickers light tank was the inspiration for the Czech LT vz. 34. One wonders what might have been with CKD up-scaling the Horstman suspension for the LT vz. 38 or Vickers doing so with a Kestrel powered Valentine.
 
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