The elder Margaret was the fourth of six girls so she had three older sisters... Eleanor, the eldest had only girls (but the younger of them would be married to earl of Northumberland), but the second Joan had most likely three sons so he would be the heir of the Lancastrians going for proximity.

Lancaster’s claim was not based on direct male (they used the excuse who Lionel was dead before his father as base for the exclusion of Philippa and her line, not her sex)
Sisters are coequal, they're not ranked senior. Any titles go into abeyance.
Do you have dates for Joan's other sons as that will figure in too?. Thomas being born c1480.

Edit: I feel like we're replicating arguments of the period on the succession :winkytongue:
 
Last edited:
Sisters are coequal, they're not ranked senior. Any titles go into abeyance.
Do you have dates for Joan's other sons as that will figure in too?. Thomas being born c1480.

Edit: I feel like we're replicating arguments of the period on the succession :winkytongue:
Blood proximity (and royal succession) work differently: sisters need to be counted in birth order for establishing their sons order in claiming succession.
Here suggest c1482 for Walter and c1483 for Christopher with their sisters born after them
 
Blood proximity (and royal succession) work differently: sisters need to be counted in birth order for establishing their sons order in claiming succession.
See that's the thing. I'm not aware royal sisters were ranked until the arrangement of Henry future VII and Elizabeth.
They certainly aren't ranked in comital succession hence abeyance.
If you have something that shows they were ranked for that period that would be very helpful.
Here suggest c1482 for Walter and c1483 for Christopher with their sisters born after them
Thus not existing yet to be counted.
 
See that's the thing. I'm not aware royal sisters were ranked until the arrangement of Henry future VII and Elizabeth.
They certainly aren't ranked in comital succession hence abeyance.
If you have something that shows they were ranked for that period that would be very helpful.

Thus not existing yet to be counted.
Well either titles goes in abeyance or they need to be sorted under some order. We have seen some titles going to a girl over her half-sisters under blood proximity as the last holder was the full brother (or his child) of said girl...
France and Outremere can give you good examples of how blood proximity was applied when succession can not go in abeyance...
 
Well either titles goes in abeyance or they need to be sorted under some order. We have seen some titles going to a girl over her half-sisters under blood proximity as the last holder was the full brother (or his child) of said girl...
France and Outremere can give you good examples of how blood proximity was applied when succession can not go in abeyance...
I think part of the problem is the lack of precedence in England.
With the comital (i.e. Earl) titles and below the King basically ruled on the end of abeyance for both titles and wealth. So proximity could be an acceptable argument to him or not. Wealth appears to have been divided based on the importance of husbands/fiances wrt the Crown. The title itself tending to go the better placed (or indeed lack of a better alternative).
With the Royal succession it was mostly clear cut with the added complexity of entails until Richard II. And then the dispute only erupted when the Yorks benefited from both interpretations (male line only and female transmission/representation [1]) as the Lancaster line failed.
The Wars of the Roses does seem to have brought in ranking sisters to English royalty but only seems to be at its conclusion with the clear victory of Henry Tudor after Bosworth and during his reign.
With regards to France I assume you're referring to Edward III's claim and the legality behind it?
Outremer I'm less familiar on their succession rules as they seem to follow usual Anglo-French custom.

[1] thanks for the reminder on the difference there.
 
Two - the Queen Consort of England
1460 for the Yorkist women and children remaining in England was a time of anticipation. The Battle of Sandwich occurred early in the year, but after that, there was very few sightings or letters from the Yorkists in Calais and Ireland. That ended in June when Warwick and Edward landed at Sandwich with an army and began to march towards London. Throughout this time a restless Margaret was feeling cooped up at Fotheringhay Castle in Northamptonshire; determined to not be as useless as she felt, she began to send personal letters to the men that resided on the lands she had inherited and compelled them to rise up and join Edward, Earl of March's army. Unsurprisingly, a lot did not answer the call as were Lancastrian supporters, however, some did, feeling more loyalty towards the woman who had personally called upon them and their bravery than a Lancastrian King who they knew was half-mad and had never met. Although the two hundred men Margaret managed to call to arms was not a significant amount, any amount of new men were useful to the cause. The victorious Battle of Northampton occurred in July, which was Edward's first battle, and ended in the capture of Henry VI, the Tower of London is also surrendered by Lord Scales. However, York makes the error of returning to England to place his hand upon the throne, claiming it. With little support from other nobles, and having shocked Warwick and Sailsbury, York is not given the throne but instead the Act of Accord is written up which allows Henry VI to continue being King for the rest of his natural life with York in power but disinherits Edward of Westminster in favour of York and his heirs. This places Margaret's Ned as fourth in line for the throne.

The Act of Accord, however, revitalises the Lancastrian cause as Margaret of Anjou will do anything to ensure her son's succession. In December, the devastating Battle of Wakefield occurs which is more like a Yorkist massacre than a battle. The Duke of York, Earl of Rutland and Earl of Salisbury are all killed - their heads displayed in the city of York. Fearful, Cecily, now the Dowager Duchess of York, sends her younger sons to Low Countries. There is talk of Ned being sent with them, but Margaret adamantly refuses to allow her thirteen-month-old son to go with them, in fear of him catching a sickness. The Yorkists now have a new motive: revenge.

As January 1461 came around with little conflict, Margaret began to grow concerned for her son. As the only daughter of John Beaufort, she would be a valuable prize to be married off to some Lancastrian nobleman should they be victorious, and her having a son - and thus heir - would lessen her value. She feared what they would do to the child she was already so painfully attached to. Would they bar him from inheriting her estates and leave him with nothing? Would they lock him away as he is the heir to the Yorkist cause? She even grew concerned for what would become of Cecily, Dowager Duchess of York, whom she had grown fond of for her strength and pride.

The next month saw the wheel of fortune turning over and over, first with the decisive Yorkist victory at the Battle of Mortimer's Cross but then the resounding defeat at the Second Battle of St. Albans. Despite the latter defeat, the Yorkists were granted access to London in early March and Edward was proclaimed King of England, where he wrote a letter to Margaret to deliver the news, in which he calls her by her not yet official title, though only the beginning survives:

Dear Margaret, Queene of England

London hath yielded to the cause of our selves, and I have become King. There is yet more battles to be won before I shall lay sight upon your virtuous self and our son, who will be Prince of Wales...


Before the month of March had ended, with the Battles of Ferrybridge and Towton occuring, the latter of which would be known as the bloodiest battle fought on English soil, the crown was officially won for the Yorkists. Margaret of Anjou and Prince Edward of Westminster fled to Scotland whilst the family of Edward were all called to London. Margaret Beaufort, Ned, Cecily Neville and her daughters all arrive in London in April, with George and Richard arriving from the Low Countries soon afterwards. After her arrival in England, Margaret was received warmly by the husband she hadn't seen in nineteen months, which is remarked on by several courtiers in their writings, and they were said to have spent the first several nights dining privately with their son, Ned, whom Edward was said to have been overjoyed to meet. Their son's hair was remarked to be blonde in his youth, like his mother's, though it was recorded to have darkened to bronze (more alike to his father's light brown hair) whilst having his mother's expressive grey eyes. Ned was consistently remarked to be a 'moste handsome youth' according to various sources, which suggests he took more after his father looks wise as Margaret was not considered to be a great beauty, only her eyes, brilliant intelligence and wit receiving enthusiastic comments.

Upon the 28th of June 1461, Edward and Margaret had a joint coronation. The same day, Ned was named Prince of Wales and Duke of Cornwall and the King's brothers - George and Richard - were named Duke of Clarence and Duke of Gloucester respectively.


m beau ned smaller.jpg

Portrait by Jacopo Bellini from the 15th century representing Margaret Beaufort, Queen of England and Edward, Prince of Wales
 
Last edited:
I think part of the problem is the lack of precedence in England.
With the comital (i.e. Earl) titles and below the King basically ruled on the end of abeyance for both titles and wealth. So proximity could be an acceptable argument to him or not. Wealth appears to have been divided based on the importance of husbands/fiances wrt the Crown. The title itself tending to go the better placed (or indeed lack of a better alternative).
With the Royal succession it was mostly clear cut with the added complexity of entails until Richard II. And then the dispute only erupted when the Yorks benefited from both interpretations (male line only and female transmission/representation [1]) as the Lancaster line failed.
The Wars of the Roses does seem to have brought in ranking sisters to English royalty but only seems to be at its conclusion with the clear victory of Henry Tudor after Bosworth and during his reign.
With regards to France I assume you're referring to Edward III's claim and the legality behind it?
Outremer I'm less familiar on their succession rules as they seem to follow usual Anglo-French custom.

[1] thanks for the reminder on the difference there.
No, I was referring at the fact who in France often the feuds were either inherited by the eldest girl or splitted between sisters...
I was thinking more than anything else to the two Jeanne, cousins of Edward (the Queen of Navarre and the Duchess and Countess of Burgundy and the succession in Artois...
In Outremere, were a custom like abeyance would be inapplicable, the eldest girl inherited everything and her younger sisters followed (unless blood proximity prevented the application of the normal male preference primogeniture)...
 
Last edited:
No, I was referring at the fact who in France often the feuds were either inherited by the eldest girl or splitted between sisters...
Titles included. E.g. both would be Countess of Troyes if their father was Count?
I don't recall the eldest sister being considered sole heir unless entailed by her father.
I was thinking more than anything else to the two Jeanne, cousins of Edward (the Queen of Navarre and the Duchess and Countess of Burgundy and the succession in Artois...
Said Queen of Navarre also had her rightful counties usurped by her uncles.
The County Burgundy wasn't French domain at that time so could have followed different rules.
And Artois is indeed a mess!
In Outremere, were a custom like abeyance would be inapplicable, the eldest girl inherited everything and her younger sisters followed (unless blood proximity prevented the application of the normal male preference primogeniture)...
Interesting. Could be held as example to create precedence depending who wins the English succession dispute.

My note about precedence is about English precedence. And lack thereof. Wealth and land were particible, titles weren't.
 
Titles included. E.g. both would be Countess of Troyes if their father was Count?
I don't recall the eldest sister being considered sole heir unless entailed by her father.

Said Queen of Navarre also had her rightful counties usurped by her uncles.
The County Burgundy wasn't French domain at that time so could have followed different rules.
And Artois is indeed a mess!

Interesting. Could be held as example to create precedence depending who wins the English succession dispute.

My note about precedence is about English precedence. And lack thereof. Wealth and land were particible, titles weren't.
No, titles also would be given to the eldest girl or sometimes split between girls (so the eldest inherited a title and the sister another).
While Jeanne was deprived of her rightful inheritance after her uncles died childless nobody tried to pretend who her cousins had any right to it equal or superior to hers... as daughter of the eldest son Jeanne was the heiress, her cousins would have inherited only if she died childless.

While Artois was an half mess it was stealed from Robert following blood proximity with a kind of entail much similar to that who deprived Philippa and her heirs of the succession to the English crown AND after that inherited following male precedence primogeniture (essentially going intact from mother to eldest daughter for two or three generations)
 
Last edited:
Anne of France would be a good match for little Ned.
I was just thinking the same.

I rushed to chase a Portuguese bride for baby Ned but it turns there is none available. Anne of France is one of the few realistic options available and apparently the perfect one.

If not her, there's only Kunigunde of Austria left.
 
I was just thinking the same.

I rushed to chase a Portuguese bride for baby Ned but it turns there is none available. Anne of France is one of the few realistic options available and apparently the perfect one.

If not her, there's only Kunigunde of Austria left.
The King of Portugal’s daughter Joanna is too old, but he has two nieces (daughters of his younger brother) available who are also first cousins of Isabella of Castile on their mothers side: Eleanor of Viseu (born 1458), in OTL Queen of Portugal as wife of John II and her sister Isabella (born 1459), OTL Duchess of Braganza who would be perfect, specially if her sister married as OTL
 
The King of Portugal’s daughter Joanna is too old, but he has two nieces (daughters of his younger brother) available who are also first cousins of Isabella of Castile on their mothers side: Eleanor of Viseu (born 1458), in OTL Queen of Portugal as wife of John II and her sister Isabella (born 1459), OTL Duchess of Braganza who would be perfect, specially if her sister married as OTL
Indeed she would, since Infanta Joana is seven years older than Ned. But I think Edward would prefer Louis XI's own daughter rather than the King of Portugal's niece.

But I'm still rooting for an Anglo-Portuguese match. I hope Margaret can have a daughter soon, a York princess born around 1462 might eventually marry João II.
 
Indeed she would, since Infanta Joana is seven years older than Ned. But I think Edward would prefer Louis XI's own daughter rather than the King of Portugal's niece.

But I'm still rooting for an Anglo-Portuguese match. I hope Margaret can have a daughter soon, a York princess born around 1462 might eventually marry João II.
No, not if the Portuguese match is seen as the better option. Isabella of Viseu would be first cousin of both John II of Portugal and Isabella of Castile... Mary of Burgundy is another good option. I see a direct French match with Louis XI‘s daughter as pretty unlikely from both sides... A better French matches would be Louis XI’s nieces Maria or Louise of Savoy (double first cousins of Charles VIII and Anne) or Yolande d’Anjou daughters Jeanne, Yolande or Marguerite (who are nieces of Marguerite of Anjou).
Still Isabella of Viseu, Mary of Burgundy (and eventually Kunigunde of Austria, who is a little too young, so would be better if her elder sister Helena survived) are descendants of John of Gaunt by his daughter Philippa (born from his first wedding)
 
Last edited:
I think Anne is the most prestigious bride for little Ned. And a very capable future queen.

She is very prestigious, but she doesn't bring a lot of benefit other than an alliance with France. She doesn't bring any land; a marriage to her would most likely include England giving up an rights to France; she doesn't put their descendants in line for the throne of France due to the Salic Law. In most other time periods, I would definitely go for the French match but when there is other matches - such as Mary of Burgundy - which would bring a greater advantage I am disinclined.
 
I think Anne is the most prestigious bride for little Ned. And a very capable future queen.
Neither thing is good enough for making her the best candidate around, specially after Marguerite d’Anjou...

She is very prestigious, but she doesn't bring a lot of benefit other than an alliance with France. She doesn't bring any land; a marriage to her would most likely include England giving up an rights to France; she doesn't put their descendants in line for the throne of France due to the Salic Law. In most other time periods, I would definitely go for the French match but when there is other matches - such as Mary of Burgundy - which would bring a greater advantage I am disinclined.
That alliance with France also is something in which Edward would not be so interested as already in OTL many of the matches he arranged for his children were anti-French...
Isabella of Viseu and Mary of Burgundy are the best matches available around for his heir as they would bring good and useful alliances
 
Three - the Mother of the Prince of Wales
By the time 1461 had ended, it became apparent that the Queen of England was expecting a second child. People were overjoyed and all, including Edward and Duchess Cecily, hoped that they would have a second son. Margaret, while excited, feared that she would not love this child as much as she loved Ned - as her love for her son was indescribable and she couldn't understand how she could feel that again for another baby. Also, Northern uprisings had been put down as a result of Warwick's efforts.

May 1462 saw the birth of Prince John Plantagenet, after which Margaret was pleasantly surprised to find she adored him as much as she did Ned. Though, she did suffer from a short period of depression following the birth. The same year saw Warwick treaty with the Scots, and be lavished to an almost absurd amount with titles, land and money. These endowments made Margaret wary of the Earl, whose wealth and array of lands were only second to the King now. In fact, Margaret and Edward were reported to have quarrelled over the matter for over a fortnight - both remembered to have willful, stubborn personalities - before the King forced the matter to be put to rest following the investment of Prince John as Duke of York. Elsewhere, Margaret of Anjou (now in France) entered an agreement with Louis XI 'The Spider' of France called the Chinon Agreement in which Louis XI would give her men, supplies and money in order to overthrow King Edward IV, in return Louis XI would gain Calais. However, when Louis told the Dukes of Burgundy and Brittany about this, Burgundy refused to allow French troops to pass through their lands and the Bretons only gave modest assistance. Louis also became less inclined to keep to this agreement as he realised that to take Calais he would have to start up conflict with Burgundy to get there. In the end, Margaret was only given eight hundred men and had a lack of funds. Still, she sailed for Scotland, soon taking Alnwick and Bamburgh Castles - this meant there was Lancastrian resistance in the North once again.

Margaret Beaufort also began to hear more of her husband's indiscretions during this year, especially as he acknowledged an illegitimate daughter known as Grace Plantagenet by a woman called Elizabeth Lucy. Whilst viewing his lustful, greedy acts with disdain, she offered for Grace to join the Royal Nursery, lest her husband have a child that is out of her circle of influence, son or not. The offer was accepted, as was the proposition for Elizabeth Lucy to become one of her Ladies In Waiting. Margaret wanted to make his mistresses loyal to her and ensure that they had as little political influence over Edward as possible. For these actions, Margaret was viewed favourably by the commons and nobility who described her as 'fair of heart'. This was also a time of a very short-lived friendship with her cousin, Henry Beaufort, who soon defected back to the Lancastrians leaving Margaret feeling betrayed.

1463 and 1464 saw continuing Lancastrian resistance. In January '63, Warwick managed to retake the stolen castles. The Lancastrian rebels were then, due to Edward's policy of conciliation, pardoned and given control over the castles. This, unsurprisingly, resulted in a backlash when the North soon rose up once more under Sir Ralph Percy, and the Yorkists lost control of Northumberland. The Battle of Hedgeley Moor (1464) occurred in the North soon after, during negotiations with Scotland for an agreement, which killed Sir Ralph Percy. A month after Hedgeley, the Battle of Hexham occurred, which saw the deaths of leading Lancastrians Somerset, Ros and Hungerford. Due to a lack of leadership, the rest of the rebellion soon fell in the North. By the end of the year, England had treaties with both France and Scotland (that they wouldn't assist Margaret of Anjou) and had stabilised the North.

Edward, ever eager to add more prestige and wealth into his family, had Margret named the Countess of Somerset after Henry Beaufort's death. He justified this as she was the daughter of the eldest son, and he placed an attainder placed upon Henry Beaufort’s immediate family. Upon Margaret's death, their son John was to become Duke of York and Earl of Somerset, which made Edward vindictively gleeful as his father's old rival's title would become the title of his blood. Margaret herself was pleased to have a title of her own, and her relationship with Edward continued to warm.

A power struggle between Margaret and Warwick began to swiftly emerge. Warwick favoured an alliance with France, proposing that Prince Ned would marry Princess Anne of France but the Queen staunchly disagreed. The arrangement with France would include England giving up any rights to French lands and Louis would not dower her with land but instead a reasonable amount of money, also due to Salic Law there was no chance of Anne inheriting. However, the French did agree to hand over Prince Edward of Westminster though they did not have possession of King Henry VI.

The King was described to be torn between the two for days, often leaving the castle without either of them. However, in September, Edward decided to turn down the marriage alliance with France, largely based on Margaret constantly reminding him of the glory he could gain by conquering French lands. Edward wanted to be remembered as a warrior King. Margaret was smug, and Warwick was fearful that his influence over Edward was slipping too far.

The month of September was also seen as eventful due to non-political matters as Queen Margaret announced her third pregnancy, and the King brought his new mistress - Elizabeth Woodville, daughter of Jacquetta of Luxembourg - to Court.



15th-13.jpg

Portrait of a young Prince John, Duke of York
 
Last edited:
Top