Map Thread XVIII

[ThirdMan2005]

View attachment 413243

This one has no perfectly tangible POD, because it started as an attempt to create better borders for the Near and Middle East. ("Better" in this case meaning "making it less likely for people who hate each other to be stuck in one country arbitrarily drawn up by colonialist jerks".) But then I decided to set it in a world that avoided the mass killing of Armenians and Assyrian Christians. A vague backstory coalesced. Thus it ended up being a depiction of this particular region in an ATL that avoided any real World Wars. As a result, this world featured a dismantling of the Ottoman Empire by European powers, and a longer-lasting colonialism (that did have the up-side of resulting in a far more neat and orderly decolonisation).

This is not to say that there were no unpleasantries. Turkey went through a revanchist phase that didn't end well at all (but is a very calm social democracy these days). Settling on definitive borders for the Central Asian states was not easy. Persia's expansionist designs required foreign intervention (although a change in dynasties has turned the territorially reduced Empire into a land of peace and commerce). Zionism still led to conflict, and ultimately to the (British-backed) expulsion of Arabs from the "State of Zion". Some diplomatic wrangling got the Hashemites to take in the refugees (and spread them all across the Kingdom, which has resulted in their being absorbed into the larger populace).

Some of the worst problems involved the forced population exchanges in the Levant. The coastal Levantine Federation, orginally a French idea, unites the Christians, the Alewites and the Druze. They began fircibly removing a lot of the Sunni and Shi'a Arabs from this new country. As a result, their own kinsmen were largely expelled from Hashemite Arabia. Conversely, the Arab Muslims cast out of the coastal Federation ended up in the Hashemite Kingdom. This was a very messy process, with a needless human cost. Lebanese Shi'a Arabs, moreover, feeling unwelcome in the distinctly Sunni country of the Hashemite Dynasty, set up their own state. They continue to cling to the goal of regaining the land they have lost. (Their situation is a bit like the Palestinians of OTL, except they are fully self-governing.) Their improvised statelet, unrecognised by both the Hashemite Kingdom and the Levantine Federation, but not really interfered with either, has embraced revolutionary syndicalism. Probably hoping to get support from Indonesia— hoping in vain, mostly.

By and large, the whole region is far more peaceful and developed than in OTL. "Islamic radicalism" is seen as a nineteenth century phenomenon in this world. "Terrorism" is a word associated only with the radical fringes of the syndicalist movement. The arch-conservatives of Nejd, for instance, are seen by their fellow Muslims and by the world at large about the same way we in OTL regard the Amish. (And indeed, their ATL branch of fundamentalism has carried them into an inward-facing tendency rather of that type.) The idea, which has gained some traction in OTL, that there is some sort of disconnect or natural hostility between the Islamic world and "Modernity" is almost entirely absent here.

If you want it more peaceful, I would put Jeddah and Mecca as "Holy Cities International Territory" to stop other Muslim countries from being angry at rules the Hashemite Kingdom could put in. Also I would make Jerusalem an independent city-state.
And last of all, the area of OTL Israel and Sinai not controlled by Zion or Suez International Territory should become its own country, also including some land east of the Sinai peninsula.

 

[ThirdMan2005]

In this case... quite. Although it's in part because the Caliphate of Paris is such a success. If it had been magically absent, but all other things remained equal, some sort of autocracy would have risen up out of the ruins of Europe, no doubt. Or rather: something very much like the Holy Union would just cover the whole continent. (So "Muslims saved Europe" is literally what happened here. Suck on that, nazis!)




Exactly.




Not at all. I see the world becoming more religious, not less. It's just that the mindset has shifted towards a more... eucemenical one. It has a lot to do with the fact that by 2200, the general attitude among Muslims is that they represent the civilised and well-mannered portion of humanity (something they can back up with concrete achievements), quite unlike those Christians ("so often violent and boorish"). That causes a certain haughtiness that will come to bite them a century later, though.




Well, one hopes. The one diametrically opposed to this one is interesting but inevitably horrible and I don't like working on it as much. The two would work best if presented together, though. (Together, they illustrate the point. this one shows how the predictions of fearmongers would not be terrible, if they did come to pass. The other must show that the proposed "solutions" would be terrible.)

There are of course many possibilities in between -- one of which I'd expect to actually resemble the real future -- but presenting the two extremes together would allow for a nice contrast.




A somewhat nebulous desire to stp being a paranoid state with a siege mentality, and to allocate a lot of the absurdly high military budget to economically worth-while goals. And giving up on irridentism and being open to trade instead. The thinking of the young officers is that if they actually have something to offer, the associated states will have a reason to want to federate with them again. (Which is correct, by the way.)




Sure, but I don't think the affinity for actual paganism runs deep. If it did, they'd have to stop being nazis.




Nah, the whole idea that being reactionary also has to mean giving up technology always surprises me. you've got groups that reject technology, but the key point is far more often to give up "Modern" values and ideas. That said, being arch-reactionary and generally hostile to others isn't a good way to get ahead when it comes to science and technology. (See: the Nazis and their disdain for "Jewish science".)

Just wondering, in the muslim Western Europe, how are agnostics/atheists viewed?

 

[Library of Alexandria]

IT'S BACK!

Now with more Japanese invasions...

Mukden Incident

• A - Second Encirclement Campaign ends (Jul 1931)
• B - Mukden Incident: The Japanese Kwantung Army stages a false-flag operation against a railway in Korea as a pretext for invading China (18 September 1931)
• C - Kwantung Army invades Manchuria. Tokyo protests the action but eventually caves in and beginning reinforcing the Kwangtung Army with additional detachments (20 September 1931)

This reminds me, what was the reasoning for naming the cliques? (IITL and OTL). Is it based on name or geography?

 

[XFE]

This reminds me, what was the reasoning for naming the cliques? (IITL and OTL). Is it based on name or geography?

A mix of both. The Fengtian Clique is for example, named after Fengtian province (today's Liaoning province); and the Jin Clique is named for Shanxi Province's traditional name; and Guangxi Clique for Guangxi Province.

The Ma Clique is named after the Ma family, which ruled over Qinghai, Gansu and Ningxia. I suppose they are named so as they don't have a centre of power, so to speak; or it is to highlight their Hui ethnicity (Ma means Muhammad).

 

[Linbot]

This reminds me, what was the reasoning for naming the cliques? (IITL and OTL). Is it based on name or geography?

Generally they are named after the province in which they were based or had some connection to (ex: Shanxi Clique, after the province, or Anhui Clique, after the province where many of its leaders were from.

Others were named after their leadership (ex: Ma (Muslim) Clique).

A few were named after their geographic location (ex: Kuominchun “Northwest Army”), or the Beiyang Army after the city.

@Xianfeng Emperor knows a lot more about this than I do.

EDIT: Ninja’d

 

[buihurbarb]

Austro-Hungarian flag map. How does it look?

 

[XFE]

EDIT: Ninja’d

Sorry for stealing your thunder

 

[Minchandre]

You don't think having lots more Jewish immigrants will cause at least a little bit more tension with the Palestinians?

There will be enough Jews in this scenario that the Arabs in Palestine won't have a chance. Since they aren't idiots, they'll probably realize that pretty quickly and stop widespread violence, especially if the British actually commit instead of pussy-footing around (but HaShomer will be enough to deal with them even without British support - man for man, the Jews are better equipped and especially better organized, with formal, trained militias facing up against violent mobs).

The only problem I see with this map is that it's being very optimistic about Arab emigration. I can't imagine those kinds of numbers happening without strong "encouragement" of one kind or another. OTL, a lot of the unrest came from distant landlords in Beirut or Damascus selling land to Jews out from under the feet of local felaheen. That still happens here, except more. Meanwhile, higher Jewish immigration puts even more impetus on the Hebrew Labor movement (to only hire Jews for basically anything). We're going to see large numbers of dispossessed, unemployed Arabs who probably can't even afford to emigrate, and we'll need massive urbanization in Damascus and Beirut to absorb them (maybe Cairo, but then we need a way to get them there). This scenario superficially avoids forced expulsion, but something ugly is lying underneath the surface.

Well, and feeding everyone is going to be a little dicey in the short term until the Green Revolution.

EDIT: On the other hand, this plan saves at least half a million lives as well, and may end up butterflying the entire Final Solution (we'll still definitely see forced labor camps with horrible conditions, but the Death Camps may not occur).

 

[Clandango]

Austro-Hungarian flag map. How does it look?

Nice enough, but fairly standard. Perhaps try for one with Hungary minus Austria and Bohemia? Though keeping Galicia and Lodomeria, Bosnia and Herzovigina, Dalmatia, etc, as many of them were officially claimed by the Hungarians or Croats, or were claimed by the Austrians through the centuries old claims of the Hungarians. Anyways, did you pick any special or symbolic place for the background?

EDIT: On the other hand, this plan saves at least half a million lives as well, and may end up butterflying the entire Final Solution (we'll still definitely see forced labor camps with horrible conditions, but the Death Camps may not occur).

I would say the Nazis wouldn't want to lose so many slave laborers, or let Jews escape, but they didn't exactly get into that mindset until later on, and did things more for the slave part than the labor they could get. Their concentration camps did have economic uses at times, though as Auschwitz's main export was clothing.... yah, gives you an idea how those economic projects went. I expect there would still be loads of concentration camps, and the sorts of people both Nazis and Soviets scooped up would still end up there. I also feel it would be mostly Western European Jews who would manage to escape, even though they likely would have no property outside a bag of clothing. Eastern Euroepan Jews would still have pogroms, mass shootings, all that sort of thing. Due to their clothing they were seen as very, extremely Jewish. I say that in relation to one guy I read mentioning how they were fine killing the 'Yids' but were uncomfortable when German Jews, who basically looked, talked, and acted just like they themselves did, were sent to them.

 

[theg*ddam*hoi2fan]

Here's the twists:

-- The Caliphate of Paris is very much like the Caliphate of Baghdad, a centre of science and philosophy that has dragged large swathes of Europe out of self-inflicted ruination. In a somewhat ironic twist of fate, the Caliphate has its hands full dealing with fundamentalist Christian/identitarian terrorists and separatists, who are backed by the Holy Union of Saint Benedict (that huge confederal thing in Eastern Europe, which is deeply reactionary and irridentist).

Interesting... I like the subversion I’m guessing that the Islam practiced in the Caliphate of Paris and New Afrika is - as well as being very encouraging to science and the like - fairly liberal on other fronts too?

 

[Gwrtheyrn Annwn]

I stand corrected on the part of casualties (although I'm fairly certain during the treaty making in Paris the British made quite a fuss about how much manpower they put into the war, so that's probably where I'm getting it from). Also, I don't think TTL's WW1 would have been easy, but I also think that WW1 A-H would've done very little to Germany's southern flank, considering how terrible they were at fighting pretty much everyone else. Same with the inept Italians. The war would've been a long, hard slog to victory, but without British manpower in France, the Western Front would've been a much easier time. And then everything they had could be thrown at the East.

They lost a lot men yeah, but I imagine their complaining was more to try to convonce the other Allies to let them get what they wanted from the treaty than anything else.

Its a fair point, A-H and Italy were pretty useless in OTL WWI (though I would argue not quite as bad as they are often portrayed, especially A-H) but they should, at least, be an added distraction that splits German attention and forces.

As the OP, I also forgot to mention that Bulgaria joined the war on the side of the Hamburgs. (And the hungarians also didn't like the war, so they rose up). About 60 pages back i brought up those two.

But why? That would put them in the same alliance as the Serbians who they vehemently resented after the 'betrayal' of the Balkan Wars. Indees they only joined WWI IOTL to try to regain the territory they had lost in the Second Balkan Wars, as well some land that they claimed from Romania (who is also in the Hamburg Pact I believe).

 

[KaiserEmu]

At last, it's finished!
I don't think Australia gets enough alternate history attention, especially Tasmania. So I decided to change that. I'm really pleased with how this map turned out; it's nearly as good as it was in my head!
Please ask questions; the more the better!

EDIT: The image isn't showing up here (probably too big), so I've put in a smaller preview.
Link to the full-size image.

Tasmania, officially the Republic of Tasmania, is a sovereign island nation, comprising the island of Van Diemen’s Land and approximately 300 smaller islands. It is the smallest country in Australia, bordered by Australasia to the north of the Flinders Straits, by the Tasman Sea to the east, and the Southern Ocean to the south and west. The country has a population of 1.2 million, heavily decentralised along the north coast and central midlands. The largest city is New Rotterdam (Nieuw-Rotterdam in Tasmanian English and Dutch), and the capital is Ontdekking.

Tasmania was inhabited by the Palawa nation for about 30,000 years before the first European settlement in the early 19th century. European discovery of the of the island occurred in 1642, when Dutch explorer Abel Tasman sighted and charted the southern half of the island, naming it Van Diemen’s Land after the incumbent Governor-General of the Dutch East Indies. The land remained mostly ignored until 1804, when Dutch refugees from the Napoleonic Wars set out to establish their own state in “Tasman’s land”, establishing the city of New Rotterdam. Unknown to them, a few weeks later a British military outpost was established at Fort Launceston to guard the Flinders Straits against a French attack. The Aboriginal population was estimated to have been between 3,000 and 7,000 at the time of colonisation, but was almost wiped out within 30 years by a combination of violent guerrilla conflict with settlers, intertribal conflict, and from the late 1820s, the spread of infectious diseases to which they had no immunity. The two settlements each grew over time, the Dutch settlements attracting refugees from various occupations in Europe and Africa, while the British established convict settlements in the north, while remaining isolated from each other until an encounter between settlers near modern-day Ontdekking, named by the Dutch settlers to reflect their discovery that they were not alone in settling the island. The British promptly set about establishing colonial rule over the island and its surroundings, with the colony officially renamed after its discoverer in 1857. In 1896, the colony’s inhabitants rejected joining the Federation of Australasia, and instead established the Commonwealth of Tasmania (Gemenebest van Tasmanië). The nation became a Dominion of the British Empire in 1931 under the Statute of Westminster, but controversially remained neutral in World War II. In 1951, the nation became a republic, adopting the Song of Tasmania as its national anthem.

Today, Tasmania is a prosperous developed nation, transitioning from an agricultural and industrial economy to a greater focus on digital technology, becoming the first nation to offer e-residency in 2006. The nation also has a heavy focus on sustainability and environmentalism, with almost 40% of the nation environmentally protected. In addition, almost all power is generated sustainably, mostly from hydroelectricity. The enormous Abel Tasman Dam provides a significant amount of this energy, and proves that the Dutch tradition of taming the water has definitely been carried over to Tasmania. Dutch and English are both official languages, and all students are required to be fluent in both, initially being taught in their mother tongue until Level 9, where all classes are bilingual. The nation has a parliamentary system, with the Prime Minister holding the most power in the running of the country, while the President serves a mostly figurehead role, similar to the Governor-General in other Commonwealth nations, and is nominated by the Parliament. The current prime minister is Alexander Pechtold, and the current President is Eric Abetz. With the ninth-highest human development index and the third-highest ranked democracy globally, the country ranks highly in quality of life, health, education, economic freedom, civil liberties and political rights. Tasmania is a member of the United Nations, Commonwealth of Nations, Pacific Pact and Oceanic Economic Cooperation Community.
​

PS. The coat of arms is mine, based off Tasmania's OTL coat of arms. So is the flag.

 

[Isaac Beach]

SNIP

Beautiful work man! You have made me sufficiently jealous of the ATL version of my home state (minus the eh, genocide, but that's true of both timelines so). I finally get what you mean when you said I was close but not on the money; it is Dutch, but still British, but neither. Cool! The idea of e-residence is also fascinating, partly because I'm under the impression we're moving in that direction legislatively in real life, due to the high number of Chinese immigrants, so this map may prove suspiciously prescient, aha.

A couple questions:
- What are Tasmania's wider neighbours? You noted Australasia, but the way you phrased 'the smallest country in Australia' implies to me at least that there are more than two? Am I reading too deeply?
- What's the ethnic makeup like? You mentioned refugees from Europe and Africa, but it's unclear whether the latter refugees are Black Africans or European Africans.
- What's the biggest city and how are they housed? The biggest city IOTL is Hobart at 200,000, largely in sprawling suburbs. It'd be interesting to see if the Dutch influence maybe changed that course.
- When did gay marriage roll about, if it has at all? This is peculiar because the Netherlands was the first country to pass same sex marriage in 2001, while Tasmania was the last Australian state to decriminalize sodomy in 1997. How you'd solve that crux is a bit funny.
- Does Tasmania ITTL still have a logging industry or catamaran manufactures if near half the land's locked up and they've transitioned to digital economy?

(Also it's not an issue for me because I just looked at the Deviantart page, but it appears the image isn't showing up.)

 

[XFE]

-Beautiful map-

Unfortunately it's not showing up unless I quote the message.

 

[KaiserEmu]

Beautiful work man! You have made me sufficiently jealous of the ATL version of my home state (minus the eh, genocide, but that's true of both timelines so). I finally get what you mean when you said I was close but not on the money; it is Dutch, but still British, but neither. Cool!

Thanks! It took long enough, but I’m glad that you like it.

The idea of e-residence is also fascinating, partly because I'm under the impression we're moving in that direction legislatively in real life, due to the high number of Chinese immigrants, so this map may prove suspiciously prescient, aha.

Interesting! I actually got the idea from Estonia, which implemented it a few years ago.

A couple questions:
- What are Tasmania's wider neighbours? You noted Australasia, but the way you phrased 'the smallest country in Australia' implies to me at least that there are more than two? Am I reading too deeply?

Intentionally ambiguous. It could just be Australasia (NZ joined the federation, as compromise was a bigger thing in order to try to get both them and the Tassies in), keeping stuff reasonably similar to OTL, or there could be more Australian nations. I’m keeping my options open because I’m considering a timeline on the latter at some point, if I have sufficient skill and everyone else has sufficient interest.

- What's the ethnic makeup like? You mentioned refugees from Europe and Africa, but it's unclear whether the latter refugees are Black Africans or European Africans.

Ethnicity is still predominantly white. The initial African refugees were Afrikaners attempting to flee British occupation in the Cape, ironically. Later migration was a mix of Europeans and Africans, who are the largest minority group (ahead of the country’s indigenous people, albeit not full-blooded indigenous, who were sadly still gone by the early 20th century). African-Tasmanians faced some discrimination, but not massive amounts due to the national narrative of being a country of refuge. In recent years East Asian migration has been growing significantly.

- What's the biggest city and how are they housed? The biggest city IOTL is Hobart at 200,000, largely in sprawling suburbs. It'd be interesting to see if the Dutch influence maybe changed that course.

Biggest city is New Rotterdam (OTL Hobart), where the city proper is mostly mid-density apartment housing. The metropolitan area, including its satellite cities (Helmond, Hillegom, Zeehaen etc) has a total population of just over 400,000.

- When did gay marriage roll about, if it has at all? This is peculiar because the Netherlands was the first country to pass same sex marriage in 2001, while Tasmania was the last Australian state to decriminalize sodomy in 1997. How you'd solve that crux is a bit funny.

Good question. Legalised by parliamentary vote in 2006, after a two-year debate. Sodomy was decriminalised in 1975. Oddly enough, the biggest proponents of gay marriage were in the Anglo north and New Rotterdam, while regional Dutch populations were most against it - due to the heavily Christian nature of many early migrants from the Netherlands.

- Does Tasmania ITTL still have a logging industry or catamaran manufactures if near half the land's locked up and they've transitioned to digital economy?

Absolutely. Logging and harvesting other natural resources provided the majority of Tasmania’s wealth early on and sustained the country, but as fish stocks depleted, forests were cleared and silver in the amount Darwin (Queenstown) area ran out, the country began transitioning its economy, initially to a more industrial model, but embracing digital technology earlier than any other nation. Hence the environmentalism; a lot of Tasmania’s environment was destroyed (including the construction of the ATL Franklin Dam) and thylacines nearly (but not quite ) made extinct before protection of the environment became a big issue in the late 70s and 80s. Logging etc is still big business, just not as big as it was. Another big employer is the Royal Tasmanian Navy (yes, royal), with its base at Hoorn. Shipbuilding has become another big business in past decades.

(Also it's not an issue for me because I just looked at the Deviantart page, but it appears the image isn't showing up.)

Unfortunately it's not showing up unless I quote the message.

Fixed.

 

[Mina-van-Mako]

At last, it's finished!
I don't think Australia gets enough alternate history attention, especially Tasmania. So I decided to change that. I'm really pleased with how this map turned out; it's nearly as good as it was in my head!
Please ask questions; the more the better!

EDIT: The image isn't showing up here (probably too big), so I've put in a smaller preview.
Link to the full-size image.

7.8/10, not enough Emus.

No, really, you made a huge piece of work here, it's impressive

 

[Library of Alexandria]

They lost a lot men yeah, but I imagine their complaining was more to try to convonce the other Allies to let them get what they wanted from the treaty than anything else.

Its a fair point, A-H and Italy were pretty useless in OTL WWI (though I would argue not quite as bad as they are often portrayed, especially A-H) but they should, at least, be an added distraction that splits German attention and forces.

But why? That would put them in the same alliance as the Serbians who they vehemently resented after the 'betrayal' of the Balkan Wars. Indees they only joined WWI IOTL to try to regain the territory they had lost in the Second Balkan Wars, as well some land that they claimed from Romania (who is also in the Hamburg Pact I believe).

Bulgaria joined in to take Thrace from Turkey (Which they would have like to have done). Serbia was not in the Hamburg Pact, they just took land from A-H during the war. (I wrongly mentioned that they were at war with them, they were not).


The Bulgarians allied with the Romanians in spite of them, not due to them. The Bulgarians were pretty friendly towards Hohenzollern Germany (Prussia of the balkans and all) and really didn't like the Ottomans.

 

[Gwrtheyrn Annwn]

Bulgaria joined in to take Thrace from Turkey (Which they would have like to have done). Serbia was not in the Hamburg Pact, they just took land from A-H during the war. (I wrongly mentioned that they were at war with them, they were not).

The Bulgarians allied with the Romanians in spite of them, not due to them. The Bulgarians were pretty friendly towards Hohenzollern Germany (Prussia of the balkans and all) and really didn't like the Ottomans.

The Bulgaria reasoning makes some sense but how did Serbia take land from A-H during war without being at war with them?

 

[Analytical Engine]

There will be enough Jews in this scenario that the Arabs in Palestine won't have a chance. Since they aren't idiots, they'll probably realize that pretty quickly and stop widespread violence, especially if the British actually commit instead of pussy-footing around (but HaShomer will be enough to deal with them even without British support - man for man, the Jews are better equipped and especially better organized, with formal, trained militias facing up against violent mobs).

Since when does "shouldn't stand a chance" stopped people before? Hezbollah and Hamas "shouldn't stand a chance" against the modern Israeli military, but it doesn't stop them from trying.

There will probably still be at least low level violence for some time.

 

[Library of Alexandria]

The Bulgaria reasoning makes some sense but how did Serbia take land from A-H during war without being at war with them?

They were given it it the peace treaty. It's like how Holstein was taken from Germany IOTL when they didn't declare war on them (as far as I know, at least).