Map Thread XV

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It's alternate history. That's like saying a bigger Holocaust and a Nazi-win on WW2 are disrespectful to write. What people write in alternate history does not reflect on the personal political views of said writer.

It isn't alternate history, though, it's future history. The POD is this year. For Israel to somehow transition in 62 years from its current "wow we'd really love to not be driven into the ocean" mentality, where its greatest sins have been disproportionate retribution against Palestinian insurgency, to a "literally kill all Arabs" mentality, where it is literally trying to kill all Arabs... That implies that people alive today would be able to be swayed to that position, and that's quite frankly insulting. I don't care that it doesn't reflect on the personal political views of the writer, the fact is that the writer (presumably) views this as a plausible sequence of future events carried out by real life non-historical people.

It's alternate history. I know Israeli Jews who make "Israel gone mad" timelines. I'm an American, I've made confederate victory scenarios and Nazi America scenarios.

Historically, groups of people that fled persecution would then in turn persecute others. I name Puritans as an American example, the Cossacks of Siberia as a Russian example, hell, there actually is an Israel National Socialist style movement. National Bolsheviks.

I don't see what the big deal is whatsoever.

I've been looking for the past half hour and for the life of me I can find no evidence of an Israeli National Bolshevik Party except for a single reference on this distinctly shady website, which, because I am not completely guillible, I'm going to not take as incontrovertible fact. There was the paramilitary organization Lehi, which did try and petition Nazi Germany to deport its Jews to British Palestine instead of committing genocide against them, but seeking the salvation of your people with a Zionist ulterior motive isn't even close to subscribing to actual racial purity-type capital-F Fascism. Lehi was arguably lowercase-f fascist, by virtue of being both nationalistic and militaristic, but there's no evidence that even the most hardcore Zionists ever once considered outright extermination of the Palestinian Arabs.
 

Isaac Beach

Banned

I agree that genocidal Jews is overplayed to the extreme so much that it's become something of a stereotype and a trope. However 62 years is certainly long enough, however absurd it might seem, for such a scenario to occur.
Germans were swayed to support a plainly antisemitic demagogue on a platform of their own racial superiority that lead them into a war that they knew would cause the deaths of millions, this within 3 decades and after a terrifying, horrid war that most of the population would have been alive for and which they were forced to accept was their fault, WWI. People can be persuaded to do horrible things, especially if they feel humiliated or threatened, and Israel is arguably the most existentially threatened country in existence. So while it's quite pessimistic of the Jewish people, it's plausible.
 
@secondmoonofuranus it happens to be very likely that a large chunk of the Israeli population could become genocidal maniacs in the space of 62 years. I mean, Hitler managed to sway Germany into blaming the Jews for all their problems in a fairly short time, didn't he? Under the right circumstances, a scapegoat becomes a target, simple as that, and as you say the disproportionate reaction to Palestinian terrorism and borderline apartheid-esque policies of current Israel could, as I said, under the right circumstances, lead to Israel becoming a genocidal state.

Humanity is tribal by nature, which is why identity politics is so successful (Us vs. Them, with 'Them' being anyone convenient at the time). I believe any group of people could become monsters in really any given time frame with the right pressures.
 
It isn't alternate history, though, it's future history. The POD is this year. For Israel to somehow transition in 62 years from its current "wow we'd really love to not be driven into the ocean" mentality, where its greatest sins have been disproportionate retribution against Palestinian insurgency, to a "literally kill all Arabs" mentality, where it is literally trying to kill all Arabs... That implies that people alive today would be able to be swayed to that position, and that's quite frankly insulting. I don't care that it doesn't reflect on the personal political views of the writer, the fact is that the writer (presumably) views this as a plausible sequence of future events carried out by real life non-historical people.



I've been looking for the past half hour and for the life of me I can find no evidence of an Israeli National Bolshevik Party except for a single reference on this distinctly shady website, which, because I am not completely guillible, I'm going to not take as incontrovertible fact. There was the paramilitary organization Lehi, which did try and petition Nazi Germany to deport its Jews to British Palestine instead of committing genocide against them, but seeking the salvation of your people with a Zionist ulterior motive isn't even close to subscribing to actual racial purity-type capital-F Fascism. Lehi was arguably lowercase-f fascist, by virtue of being both nationalistic and militaristic, but there's no evidence that even the most hardcore Zionists ever once considered outright extermination of the Palestinian Arabs.
There was a legitimate Jewish ultranationalist party, less than a 100 years after the Holocaust, called the Kach. As a Jew, whos grandparents say that Arabs are "not evolved enough for democracy" and that all Arabs should be expelled from Israel, I can tell you with certainty that if anything, a people as cornered and fortress-psychology-ized as the Jews can definitely become genocidal in a radical political upturn.
 
@secondmoonofuranus it happens to be very likely that a large chunk of the Israeli population could become genocidal maniacs in the space of 62 years. I mean, Hitler managed to sway Germany into blaming the Jews for all their problems in a fairly short time, didn't he? Under the right circumstances, a scapegoat becomes a target, simple as that, and as you say the disproportionate reaction to Palestinian terrorism and borderline apartheid-esque policies of current Israel could, as I said, under the right circumstances, lead to Israel becoming a genocidal state.

Humanity is tribal by nature, which is why identity politics is so successful (Us vs. Them, with 'Them' being anyone convenient at the time). I believe any group of people could become monsters in really any given time frame with the right pressures.
Additionally seeing the map I'd say that UN is either nonexistent or dysfunctional. Europe probably does its own UN style thing but very likely having to obey Chinese masters, while US is, well the US. Probably some Post-trump backwater in which you can see various revolutions do they'll probably be more interested in themselves.

Following most nations don't have to obey UN humanitarian laws I'd guess that would be possible if you can control the media or life of your citizens enough. With the lone superpower mighty china being the supporter of this neoauthoritarianism I'll guess many nations will find it okay to be authoritarian-fascist
 
Could y'all please like. Not put genocidal "Nazi" Israel in your scenarios? No matter your opinion on the Palestine-Israel conflict, it's just disgusting and disrespectful to insinuate that Israeli Jews, the descendants of people themselves fleeing genocide and pogroms, would only a little over a hundred years later proceed to commit genocide and carry out pogroms themselves.

This conversation should really get put into political chat. But given that 1890s Germany didn't resemble 1940s all that much (it went from what was essentially an unremarkable 'great power' with a tiny colonial empire to a xenophobic madhouse), it's not all that far-fetched. And then we have Israeli politicians like Ayelet Shaked, who has said that “the entire Palestinian people is the enemy” and called for its destruction, "including its elderly and its women, its cities and its villages, its property and its infrastructure." That's fairly hardcore, if the report is accurate.

The horrible thing about Hitler and the Nazis isn't that they were monsters — it's that they were human. By monstering them, we somehow pretend that it's not something "we" would ever do. The horrible truth is, humans are monsters, and if we aren't careful, this kind of thing will return time and time again in varying disguises.
 
PRC-Wank is done! No More Shitposting! Yay!

Ching-Chang-Snip

POD- Actually in 2017, but effects aren't noticeable until 2020 when china interferes in the US election
POD explained: in 2017, AltruisticHedonist posts a PRC wank on alternatehistory.com
Because he also kills a fly, through a difficult chain of events the Chinese president stumbles over the post in the forum, deciding that this is the ultimate plan for 2070. As of 2070, AltruisticHedonist is the only Non-Chinese owner of a medal of Imperial Chinese Honor.
 
Alright all, that's fair, sorry for making a fuss about it.

Cool cool. Sixty years into the future can certainly leave a lot of gaps for Israel to turn into anti-Muslim pogroms and the like. Heck, I'm pretty sure within the late 21st century, Earth's geopolitics would be radically different as well. China and / or India might be the next superpower and American politics may no longer be divided into the typical Democrats vs Republicans, but instead may have been broken into new political parties, ideologies, etc. Sixty years is a lot in terms of political and ideological shifts.
 
OK, this is based on this scenario by Venusian Si...

In this world, the late Roman penetration of Christianity into the German lands would lead to a reaction, in the form of a Mohammed-like figure, who in the story as it would be told would take a walk at night in a holy grove, and be overcome with visions. Syncretizing Christianity with various elements of Germanic belief, this monotheistic-with-some-frills religion would be an expansionist one, claiming to be an original truth than Christians and Jews had forgotten and would have to be reminded of, by the sword if necessary. So when the Germanic invasions got underway, it would be a religious crusade as well as a territorial migration...

Some elements carried over from Germanic myth: there were still sacred groves, although human sacrifice was forbidden, for nature was holy, a gift from God to man, a thing of beauty and occasionally terror - the notion, so often popular in Christianity, that we inhabited a Fallen world which would be put to order during the End Times (all those annoying mountains flattened out, for instance) was missing. Similar to Islam in it's universality and tolerance to the "people of the book" (never mind it took a couple centuries for the writings of the Enlightened One to be put onto vellum), the new faith was also different in many ways: it did not have the whole "succession problem" of Islam, in that descent from the Enlightened One was not considered necessary for a ruler, nor was the division of ruler and ruled that led many Islamic states OTL to create armies of slaves they could rely on. Jarls and Kings continued to sit relatively secure on their thrones and Moots and Things of various sorts remained influential, as long as they stuck to the principles of the faith. Submission was to God.

(I have named the faith "Submission" in honor of the very fine "Viking Islam" TL created by Anthony Mayer back in the 00's on soc.history.what-if. Some of it can be found here or here but the search function on yahoo groups is, alas, crap.)

Christianity would not be wiped out, but would survive on the southern side of the Mediterranean, and retained footholds in the Balkans and Iberia from which it would be able to carry out a reconquista of sorts (more successfully in the west than east), aided by a tendency of Submission states (I'm not saying Submissive, sounds silly) towards fragmentation (the old multiple sons problem in the absence of a semi-divine universal ruler), and would, like Islam OTL, expand by horse and camel across the Sahara and by boat from Arabia to East Africa. The contest between Christianity and Submission would continue, with Submission (once it had gotten the trick of primogeniture down) gaining an edge from the generally dictatorial tendencies of the Christian states (with the Roman papacy snuffed in the cradle, the tendency was for secular rulers to also be the leaders of their own churches, and the OTL influence of Germanic semi-democratic traditions removed, the Roman High Imperial model tended to be the norm), which if allowing impressive coordination and resources under strong, competent rulers, also tended towards inflexibility and disaster under long-lived bad ones. Competition would continue in the Americas, and beyond.

In the modern day China, "pagan" China is unquestionably Top Country, having turned more outward looking and never fallen as far behind technologically as OTL (conflicts on three continent discouraged complacence, and if China did fall behind for a while, it never fell so far that it couldn't extract unacceptable costs from a would-be conqueror). The worlds of Christianity and Submission have to some extent kissed and made up in a more secular and scientific era, although neither is quite as secular as the OTL Christian-more-or-less west (think of a world made up of variants on OTL religiosity and you'll be not too far off. :p ) and are concentrating on (1), not being bought and sold by the Chinese, and (2), dealing with advanced global warming, worse in a TL where industrialized modernity is rather more widely spread...

So, here's the map. Some spelling errors are deliberate to indicate divergence in languages and spelling conventions, so don't be so swift to tell me I screwed up there. China has a lot of economic influence all over the place, but it's busy and note-filled enough, so taken it as given.




german_islam_by_quantumbranching-db3svbq.png
 
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OK, this is based on this scenario by Venusian Si...

In this world, the late Roman penetration of Christianity into the German lands would lead to a reaction, in the form of a Mohammed-like figure, who in the story as it would be told would take a walk at night in a holy grove, and be overcome with visions. Syncretizing Christianity with various elements of Germanic belief, this monotheistic-with-some-frills religion would be an expansionist one, claiming to be an original truth than Christians and Jews had forgotten and would have to be reminded of, by the sword if necessary. So when the Germanic invasions got underway, it would be a religious crusade as well as a territorial migration...

Some elements carried over from Germanic myth: there were still sacred groves, although human sacrifice was forbidden, for nature was holy, a gift from God to man, a thing of beauty and occasionally terror - the notion, so often popular in Christianity, that we inhabited a Fallen world which would be put to order during the End Times (all those annoying mountains flattened out, for instance) was missing. Similar to Islam in it's universality and tolerance to the "people of the book" (never mind it took a couple centuries for the writings of the Enlightened One to be put onto vellum), the new faith was also different in many ways: it did not have the whole "succession problem" of Islam, in that descent from the Enlightened One was not considered necessary for a ruler, nor was the division of ruler and ruled that led many Islamic states OTL to create armies of slaves they could rely on. Jarls and Kings continued to sit relatively secure on their thrones and Moots and Things of various sorts remained influential, as long as they stuck to the principles of the faith. Submission was to God.

(I have named the faith "Submission" in honor of the very fine "Viking Islam" TL created by Anthony Mayer back in the 00's on soc.history.what-if. Some of it can be found here or here but the search function on yahoo groups is, alas, crap.)

Christianity would not be wiped out, but would survive on the southern side of the Mediterranean, and retained footholds in the Balkans and Iberia from which it would be able to carry out a reconquista of sorts (more successfully in the west than east), aided by a tendency of Submission states (I'm not saying Submissive, sounds silly) towards fragmentation (the old multiple sons problem in the absence of a semi-divine universal ruler), and would, like Islam OTL, expand by horse and camel across the Sahara and by boat from Arabia to East Africa. The contest between Christianity and Submission would continue, with Submission (once it had gotten the trick of primogeniture down) gaining an edge from the generally dictatorial tendencies of the Christian states (with the Roman papacy snuffed in the cradle, the tendency was for secular rulers to also be the leaders of their own churches, and the OTL influence of Germanic semi-democratic traditions removed, the Roman High Imperial model tended to be the norm), which if allowing impressive coordination and resources under strong, competent rulers, also tended towards inflexibility and disaster under long-lived bad ones. Competition would continue in the Americas, and beyond.

In the modern day China, "pagan" China is unquestionably Top Country, having turned more outward looking and never fallen as far behind technologically as OTL (conflicts on three continent discouraged complacence, and if China did fall behind for a while, it never fell so far that it couldn't extract unacceptable costs from a would-be conqueror). The worlds of Christianity and Submission have to some extent kissed and made up in a more secular and scientific era, although neither is quite as secular as the OTL Christian-more-or-less west (think of a world made up of variants on OTL religiosity and you'll be not too far off. :p ) and are concentrating on (1), not being bought and sold by the Chinese, and (2), dealing with advanced global warming, worse in a TL where industrialized modernity is rather more widely spread...

So, here's the map. Some spelling errors are deliberate to indicate divergence in languages and spelling conventions, so don't be so swift to tell me I screwed up there. China has a lot of economic influence all over the place, but it's busy and note-filled enough, so taken it as given.




german_islam_by_quantumbranching-db3svbq.png


Prussia

Gottland


._.
 
Hey look! A map!

Nice map - too much Japan-wank for my tastes, alas. It's going to hard enough for Japan to take and hold Korea [1] in the face of Ming resistance, turtle boats or no turtle boats, without them then going on to conquer half (a third?) of China.

[1] Indeed, surprised some of our resident Korea-boosters haven't shown up already to say it couldn't be done. Must be asleep or something... :p
 
Found this a week or two ago and will try my hand at covering it in worlda style someday. Thought you guys might like it:

Hey, that's SRegan's map. Guy hasn't been too active lately, alas: he did produce some fine maps. (I tried to do a cover of the world map he did first, but then he posted that bit of awesome and I thought "nope, can't top that.") More power to you if you have the chutzpah to take it on!
 
A Work In Progress, thank you SRegan for the basemap off the resources. Basic premise is that America is strangled almost in it's cradle in TTL's War of 1812, while the French Republic literally is strangled in its cradle. The result is an explosive socialist and libertarian style revolutions.

Ah, so north America hasn't been modified yet, then. Is that a Revolutionary Eastern Half of the British Empire?
 
Hey, that's SRegan's map. Guy hasn't been too active lately, alas: he did produce some fine maps. (I tried to do a cover of the world map he did first, but then he posted that bit of awesome and I thought "nope, can't top that.") More power to you if you have the chutzpah to take it on!

Huh so that was him.

Perhaps a cover isn't the right word. If I were to take that on, it would only be making a worlda version of that part of the world rather than a full on oneshot focusing on the entire world that you do with your covers.
 
It's a very nice map, I really love how you took the standard Worlda format and spiced it up with the extra stuff on the sides. Plus, that China color choice is beautiful, I don't get why China isn't blue more often. Probably it's France's fault. Just one question: What's up with Africa? Like, I get it, but I don't get it. Anyways, good map, good idea, and great pizzaz.

France, probably. I wanted to call back to the RoC flag though, to contrast with the Reds.

Africa is the reason this map took so long. I didn't just want to color it beige for "other" or just use various colonial colors. So it's divided mostly between European Colonial Possessions overlapping with various zones of control for the Indian Ocean defense pact, or whatever I called it. Kind of a dumb solution, but I like how the colors turned out.
 
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