Map Thread XIX
- Thread starter water123
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Skallagrim
Banned
Catholic victory is tempting to explore, although it runs into the stumbling block that the Catholic aim was to keeps the HRE united under the supremacy of a Catholic monarch, while at the same time, forcibly coverting the all Protestants would be as impossible as the Protestants converting all the Catholics. Ironically, I think that the best case (as in: most likely to yield stability) for the Catholics would be a "true" opposite to the scenario I've depicted: one wherein the most doggedly Protestant regions are kicked out of the HRE, while the remainder is thoroughly cleansed of Protestantism.
This is, of course, even more implausible!
I see you are doubling down on insisting the Italians did not annex Ethiopia. I think it should count as the Wikipedia page on the war pretty much states at one point the Soviets were the only country in Earth that went out of their way to say they did not recognize it. If that doesn’t count, then the British occupation of Ogaden doesn’t count, even if they did want to annex it. What story do you have behind the Italian bit between Russia, Turkey and Iran/Greece? Also may want to add a dot for Denmark down in the Virgin Islands. East Timor also got forgotten. Same with Guam, but I don’t know if the Spaniards actually occupied it for very long. Brits get Mosquito Coast?
-Austria-Serbia-Bulgaria-Saxony-Brandenburg-Russia-Lithuania-Sweden-Finland-Norway-Denmark...
-Austria-Serbia-Bulgaria-Saxony-Brandenburg-Russia-Lithuania-Sweden-Finland-Norway-Denmark...
All those protestants and orthodoxers may be a problem.
Have a little one-shot electoral map.
This depicts the first general election in the united Republic of Kornonia. As a reward for the Republic of North Kornonia's participation in the Great War, it was permitted to double its size by annexing its southern neighbors: from east to west, the Kingdom of Raminia, the Principality of Nerris and Amada, the Grand Duchy of Tulazia, and a scrap of the defeated Cheshan Empire populated by ethnic Kornonians. Taking that last territory was rather hypocritical, given that the substantial Snablian minority in Raminia and Amada was not split off into a different nation-state.
North Kornonia had the democratic system of greatest longevity prior to the War. It had four major parties. The Conservative Party of North Kornonia and the Liberal Party of Kornonia (which had been faster to update its name to match the country's) were the oldest. The Radical Party of North Kornonia, a splinter from the Liberal Party, was actually shut out of the national parliament entirely at this election, a consequence of both its opposition to a war in which the country won a valuable and surprisingly easy victory and savvy Liberal exploitation of that fact. The Kornonian Federalist Party broke originally from the Conservatives, but also absorbed many former Liberals once the latter party committed to centralist government. In this election, in fact, the Liberals called for the complete abolition of the provincial level of government, poisoning their relationship with the Federalists.
Tulazia had its own democratic tradition, with politics divided between the Conservative Party of Tulazia and the Liberal Party of Tulazia. In Nerris and Amada, prior to the war, the Prince had managed to escape relinquishing more than nominal authority to elected institutions, and the Party of the Court and the Party of the Fields were quite informal, non-ideological associations, the former more or less representing Nerris and the latter Amada.
In the Kingdom of Raminia, however, absolutism had reigned, and few pre-formed political organizations existed to contest the elections as national parties. Two groups stood out as secret resistance organizations to the Raminian regime: the leftist Party for Human Liberation and the autonomist Snablian League. Each of the big three parties of the North established a puppet ticket to run in Raminia: for the Liberals, the Kornonian National Party, emphasizing the Liberal Party's leadership in uniting Kornonia; for the Federalists, the Kornonian Federalist Party in Raminia; and for the Conservatives, the Conservative Party of Raminia. But politics is local, and in much of the land (especially the areas that North Kornonia occupied during the war) the delegates returned had no ties to any particular faction, or were loosely aligned into new parties like the Party for Honor and Piety or the Traditional Kornonian Party.
Thus the Liberals, despite winning a majority of North Kornonia's 99 seats, controlled far less of Raminia's delegation than they expected, and the ensuing government included ministers from seven parties: both the Liberal and Conservative branches from North Kornonia, Tulazia, and Raminia, plus one member of Nerris's Party of the Court.
This depicts the first general election in the united Republic of Kornonia. As a reward for the Republic of North Kornonia's participation in the Great War, it was permitted to double its size by annexing its southern neighbors: from east to west, the Kingdom of Raminia, the Principality of Nerris and Amada, the Grand Duchy of Tulazia, and a scrap of the defeated Cheshan Empire populated by ethnic Kornonians. Taking that last territory was rather hypocritical, given that the substantial Snablian minority in Raminia and Amada was not split off into a different nation-state.
North Kornonia had the democratic system of greatest longevity prior to the War. It had four major parties. The Conservative Party of North Kornonia and the Liberal Party of Kornonia (which had been faster to update its name to match the country's) were the oldest. The Radical Party of North Kornonia, a splinter from the Liberal Party, was actually shut out of the national parliament entirely at this election, a consequence of both its opposition to a war in which the country won a valuable and surprisingly easy victory and savvy Liberal exploitation of that fact. The Kornonian Federalist Party broke originally from the Conservatives, but also absorbed many former Liberals once the latter party committed to centralist government. In this election, in fact, the Liberals called for the complete abolition of the provincial level of government, poisoning their relationship with the Federalists.
Tulazia had its own democratic tradition, with politics divided between the Conservative Party of Tulazia and the Liberal Party of Tulazia. In Nerris and Amada, prior to the war, the Prince had managed to escape relinquishing more than nominal authority to elected institutions, and the Party of the Court and the Party of the Fields were quite informal, non-ideological associations, the former more or less representing Nerris and the latter Amada.
In the Kingdom of Raminia, however, absolutism had reigned, and few pre-formed political organizations existed to contest the elections as national parties. Two groups stood out as secret resistance organizations to the Raminian regime: the leftist Party for Human Liberation and the autonomist Snablian League. Each of the big three parties of the North established a puppet ticket to run in Raminia: for the Liberals, the Kornonian National Party, emphasizing the Liberal Party's leadership in uniting Kornonia; for the Federalists, the Kornonian Federalist Party in Raminia; and for the Conservatives, the Conservative Party of Raminia. But politics is local, and in much of the land (especially the areas that North Kornonia occupied during the war) the delegates returned had no ties to any particular faction, or were loosely aligned into new parties like the Party for Honor and Piety or the Traditional Kornonian Party.
Thus the Liberals, despite winning a majority of North Kornonia's 99 seats, controlled far less of Raminia's delegation than they expected, and the ensuing government included ministers from seven parties: both the Liberal and Conservative branches from North Kornonia, Tulazia, and Raminia, plus one member of Nerris's Party of the Court.
Agreed about Italian Ethiopia, Danish Virgin Islands and Spanish Guam. Also Portuguese East Timor. Also I am pretty sure that Italian bit is from the Roman Empire. Thought I am pretty sure it is likelier that it was a part of the Ottoman Empire sooner than that. There was a brief time in 16th century where Ottomans had won big against Iran before the modern border was established (which is a pretty old border. Not sure when exactly but is atleast from the 18th century).
Ah, well perhaps one dominated by a country which is either landlocked or historically doesn’t have a large navy. A mega-Austria (could be anything from a mega-HRE to a “Europe of a hundred flags under the Habsburg crown”), a mega-Hungary (Attila’s legacy?), a Polish-Lithuanian-everything else union?
Like @Skallagrim on the previous page I offer my own version of a Protestant victory in the Thirty Years' War. Even if this scenario is only implausible I hope you will find it interesting.
In addition, I draw inspiration from some elements of my chronology. If you want to discover it, the link is in my signature.
The Twenty Years' War was the most devastating conflict for Europe since the beginning of its history. The war had simply begun in 1618 with a revolt in Bohemia, which was soon quelled by the Habsburgs. But soon the war spread throughout the Holy Roman Empire. The imperials continued to fly from victory to victory facing only the weak armies of the Protestant Union. Denmark's entry into the war, financed by France, did not change anything during the war. It was in 1629 that the Emperor made the mistake of dismissing one of his most competent generals, Wallenstein. When the Swedes entered the conflict (again with the help of France) no one in the Holy Roman Empire succeeded in driving back the Lion of the North. The Battle of Breitenfeld in 1631 marked the overthrow of the war in favor of the Protestants. The emperor tried to recall Wallenstein to his side, but the latter chose to join Gustav II Adolf of Sweden who promised him in exchange for his defection the Duchy of Mecklenburg and the Bohemian crown.
The imperials failed to regain control and lost Prague and the rest of Bohemia. Bavaria soon suffered the many ravages of war. In 1638 the Protestant armies came dangerously close to Austria and the overwhelmed Emperor opened talks.
The conditions of war were terrible for the imperials. Gustav II Adolf created "The Great Protestant Union" with the Protestant states of the Holy Roman Empire and became de facto independent from the Empire. The purpose of the Union was to "liberate" the Protestant Germans from the yoke of the Catholics and the Emperor. Gustav II Adolf proclaimed himself "Great Protector of the Union" and his Kingdom became the leader of the Union.
After the war, the Union lost its main ally, France. The latter, although she had succeeded in partitioning the Spanish Netherlands with the United Provinces and the downfall of the House of Habsburg, regretted that her Swedish remedy was worse than the Habsburg disease. Dissension was also felt between the member states of the league. Brandenburg cannot stand that Stockholm has not ceded to it one Eastern Pomerania, Saxony is looking at Silesia held by Wallenstein, the Duchy of Jülich and Berg seeks to obtain from Prussia the Dukedoms of Cleves and Marck obtained by Brandenburg, Calvinist Hesse-Kassel's acquisition of the Lutheran Hesse-Darmstadt is only with difficulty accepted by the other Protestant states and the more or less forced integration of the United Provinces disturbs many of the great Dutch merchants who do not want Swedish tutelage.
For Sweden, the post-war period was a period of great prosperity. The war with Denmark in 1642 had enabled the withdrawal of Skåne and Norway and the entry of the Jutland peninsula into the union. Sweden's other great adversary fell was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The war was brutal and the former Polish Empire was partitioned between Sweden with the Protestant Union and Russia, which obtained the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Between the two only a rumpy kingdom remained in Krakow.
In this war Brandenburg succeeded in obtaining the crown of the former Polish Kingdom with the blessing of Sweden. Furthermore a marriage was concluded between Frederick William of Brandenburg and the daughter of Gustav II Adolf of Sweden, Christina.
But the Great Protestant Union made many enemies and Europe began to unite against it. France was reconciled with the Habsburgs and the Catholic world was once again unified under one banner. The presence of a very ambitious king in Paris and the creation of a Rhine League under the blessing of France did not bode well for the Union. Great Britain, for its part, is less and less able to withstand the competition of the United Provinces throughout the world and the fear of a conquering France seems to be taking a back seat to London. In Russia, "appetite comes with eating", and Moscow's acquisition of Lithuania motivated the Tsar to challenge the "Swedish lake" in the Baltic. Tensions in Livonia are becoming more and more frequent. In the south of Germany the very militaristic Bavaria no longer hides the ambition to re-found the Holy Roman Empire and to fight the Reformed heresy.
In the Great Protestant Union tensions are also on the rise. Prussia's ambition has frightened most of the member states since the annexation of Poland. The house of Wallenstein in Prague is also very ambitious, the fact that it welcomes the many Catholic minorities of the union on its lands (and that the King of Bohemia is himself a papist) disturbs many of the other member states. Tensions between Calvinists and Lutherans are also frequent and prevent the Union from uniting its members under common leadership. The numerous quarrels between the United Provinces and the Duchy of Munster (secularized and given to Frederick V of the Palatinate after the war) also undermined the internal relations between the states. Denmark, too, were frustrated by their defeat to Sweden and prepared to stab the union in the back by signing secret deals with England to get Norway back.
But in 1680 a shock wave will sweep through Europe, the very old King of Sweden Gustav II Adolph has just died in Stockholm. The only descendant he left, Christina of Sweden, is married to Frederick William, Duke of Brandenburg and King of Poland... The War of the Swedish Succession has just begun...
In addition, I draw inspiration from some elements of my chronology. If you want to discover it, the link is in my signature.
The Twenty Years' War was the most devastating conflict for Europe since the beginning of its history. The war had simply begun in 1618 with a revolt in Bohemia, which was soon quelled by the Habsburgs. But soon the war spread throughout the Holy Roman Empire. The imperials continued to fly from victory to victory facing only the weak armies of the Protestant Union. Denmark's entry into the war, financed by France, did not change anything during the war. It was in 1629 that the Emperor made the mistake of dismissing one of his most competent generals, Wallenstein. When the Swedes entered the conflict (again with the help of France) no one in the Holy Roman Empire succeeded in driving back the Lion of the North. The Battle of Breitenfeld in 1631 marked the overthrow of the war in favor of the Protestants. The emperor tried to recall Wallenstein to his side, but the latter chose to join Gustav II Adolf of Sweden who promised him in exchange for his defection the Duchy of Mecklenburg and the Bohemian crown.
The imperials failed to regain control and lost Prague and the rest of Bohemia. Bavaria soon suffered the many ravages of war. In 1638 the Protestant armies came dangerously close to Austria and the overwhelmed Emperor opened talks.
The conditions of war were terrible for the imperials. Gustav II Adolf created "The Great Protestant Union" with the Protestant states of the Holy Roman Empire and became de facto independent from the Empire. The purpose of the Union was to "liberate" the Protestant Germans from the yoke of the Catholics and the Emperor. Gustav II Adolf proclaimed himself "Great Protector of the Union" and his Kingdom became the leader of the Union.
After the war, the Union lost its main ally, France. The latter, although she had succeeded in partitioning the Spanish Netherlands with the United Provinces and the downfall of the House of Habsburg, regretted that her Swedish remedy was worse than the Habsburg disease. Dissension was also felt between the member states of the league. Brandenburg cannot stand that Stockholm has not ceded to it one Eastern Pomerania, Saxony is looking at Silesia held by Wallenstein, the Duchy of Jülich and Berg seeks to obtain from Prussia the Dukedoms of Cleves and Marck obtained by Brandenburg, Calvinist Hesse-Kassel's acquisition of the Lutheran Hesse-Darmstadt is only with difficulty accepted by the other Protestant states and the more or less forced integration of the United Provinces disturbs many of the great Dutch merchants who do not want Swedish tutelage.
For Sweden, the post-war period was a period of great prosperity. The war with Denmark in 1642 had enabled the withdrawal of Skåne and Norway and the entry of the Jutland peninsula into the union. Sweden's other great adversary fell was the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The war was brutal and the former Polish Empire was partitioned between Sweden with the Protestant Union and Russia, which obtained the Grand Duchy of Lithuania. Between the two only a rumpy kingdom remained in Krakow.
In this war Brandenburg succeeded in obtaining the crown of the former Polish Kingdom with the blessing of Sweden. Furthermore a marriage was concluded between Frederick William of Brandenburg and the daughter of Gustav II Adolf of Sweden, Christina.
But the Great Protestant Union made many enemies and Europe began to unite against it. France was reconciled with the Habsburgs and the Catholic world was once again unified under one banner. The presence of a very ambitious king in Paris and the creation of a Rhine League under the blessing of France did not bode well for the Union. Great Britain, for its part, is less and less able to withstand the competition of the United Provinces throughout the world and the fear of a conquering France seems to be taking a back seat to London. In Russia, "appetite comes with eating", and Moscow's acquisition of Lithuania motivated the Tsar to challenge the "Swedish lake" in the Baltic. Tensions in Livonia are becoming more and more frequent. In the south of Germany the very militaristic Bavaria no longer hides the ambition to re-found the Holy Roman Empire and to fight the Reformed heresy.
In the Great Protestant Union tensions are also on the rise. Prussia's ambition has frightened most of the member states since the annexation of Poland. The house of Wallenstein in Prague is also very ambitious, the fact that it welcomes the many Catholic minorities of the union on its lands (and that the King of Bohemia is himself a papist) disturbs many of the other member states. Tensions between Calvinists and Lutherans are also frequent and prevent the Union from uniting its members under common leadership. The numerous quarrels between the United Provinces and the Duchy of Munster (secularized and given to Frederick V of the Palatinate after the war) also undermined the internal relations between the states. Denmark, too, were frustrated by their defeat to Sweden and prepared to stab the union in the back by signing secret deals with England to get Norway back.
But in 1680 a shock wave will sweep through Europe, the very old King of Sweden Gustav II Adolph has just died in Stockholm. The only descendant he left, Christina of Sweden, is married to Frederick William, Duke of Brandenburg and King of Poland... The War of the Swedish Succession has just begun...
Last edited:
Skallagrim
Banned
Well, the Protestant set-up lasted longer than five minutes, but I don't think it's going to reach the five decade mark!
This is the most optimistic scenario I have been able to imagine while remaining realistic and without falling into the ASB. I will soon try to do the opposite, the most optimistic Catholic victory possible.
Once again, another map update. It's March 1942, and the USSR has capitulated after Moscow was captured.
They do actually. Since the Free American Empire is in the Axis, it operates the Philippines as a base alongside the Japanese.
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