Maoist radicalism wins out in China-- How big of a boost for international Maoism?

[Elidor]

Lin should be able to keep China together without nuclear hellfire happening, and tamp down the Cultural Revolution. That alone will make him popular. But I'd argue that Maoist radicalism doesn't truly win out under Lin Bao, because compared to the Gang of Four he's quite a moderate.

Well I was interested in a Maoist China radical enough to export revolution and for there to be a substantial "Maoist International" of pro-China groups and regimes. It doesn't have to be most radical of all possible Chinas.

The Cultural revolution will end on schedule, but will be seen as a good thing and be likely imitated in Peru, Nepal et al. That in itself is quite radical by OTL standards

True, but he was more Maoist than Marxist-Leninist, which is what mattered.

Point taken.

I do think Che's ego is probably big enough that he eventually breaks with China eventually.

Yep. I can see that happening, just as the Cultural Revolution is being phased out, we'll have Che arguing for a permanent CR.

Maoism has always been an ideology with more than a few screws loose. Modern Maoists are probably in their own league there.

In the US, "Modern" Maoists run the gamut from:

Kasama (Mostly sane, if misguided. Not too different from your average Trot/Anarchist group)
Freedom Road Socialist Organization (Big-Tent Pro-CCP Socialists)
MIM / LLCO / RAIM ("Third-Worldist" Extremists. Fond of bashing "AmeriKKKa")
RCP (A Political Cult, totally based around a single individual)

WWP and PSL aren't Maoist, but they support any regime/movement that is anti-US, and remotely "socialist".

So, yeah, a varied bunch-- not as screwy as one might expect. ITTL There'd probably only be a single CPUSA (M-L) pushing Maoism in the US. Its numbers might actually be bigger than the pro-soviet CPUSA. The SDS split might still happen, but the New Communist Movement might unify around a pro-China party instead of splintering into pieces.

A more pragmatic solution would be to send millions of Red Guards to a less hotter flashpoint. Africa.

Maybe ITTL, UNITA remains pro-Chinese rather than go all the way towards embracing Anti-Communism. The Cubans fighting the Chinese in Angola might be very interesting.

Or failing that, there is always Somalia, or perhaps Tanzania.

There's also the chance that the Gang of Four end up prevailing ITTL. If that happens, China ends up as North Korea crossbred with the Khmer Rouge. Drew does this in Fear, Loathing and Gumbo on the Campaign Trail '72, though with Mao Yuanxin ultimately sidelining Jiang Qing. The "Greater Mao" is ultimately seen in a much better light due to the horribleness of the "Lesser Mao," as amazing as that sounds.

Yeah, but if we work with POD of Mao dying '68 or '69, A Lin Biao takeover is more likely. Besides, even the Gang of Four's radicalism had limits, and had mostly agreed to clamp down on the more radical groupings such as the aforementioned "Shengwulian group" and "workers communes" forming across China.

Of course, there is always a chance of Lin being succeeded by somebody even more radical than the Gang of Four. Some of the members of the Cultural Revolution Group might back Lin against Jiang Qing in their power struggle, and thus be in that position. Once more, the cultural revolution being seen as a good thing might mean that a new one is unleashed every generation or so.

Maybe the headlines of 1986 would consist of Chen Boda's China launching the Second Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution.

 

[gladiator8085]

I don't think it's impossible to hide 50 million corpses. I mean word would get out, people would notice eventually.

Worked for the USSR in the 1930's. After all, many leftists such as W. Lincoln Steffens only saw Stalin's Potemkin villages and were overawed. He said, "I have seen the future and it works"

 

[eliphas8]

Worked for the USSR in the 1930's. After all, many leftists such as W. Lincoln Steffens only saw Stalin's Potemkin villages and were overawed. He said, "I have seen the future and it works"

Yes but that's comparatively small scale. A famine and isolated work camps no one would ever see and far fewer dead people. The failures of both the cultural revolution and the Great Leap Forward where by far more obvious.

 

[Elidor]

Chinas problems where too well known to be widely popular.

You are projecting what is essentially a 2013 attitude into the 1970s. Even non-Maoist leftists considered China to be a success story, and model for the developing world.

Yes, that is how deluded the academics were.

I don't think it's impossible to hide 50 million corpses. I mean word would get out, people would notice eventually.

Even Today, There are people out there who deny that the Famine was anthropogenic and contest the "50 Million" statistic, insisting it was no worse in China than it was in any other country struggling with a natural famine at the time.

Maoist rebels in neighboring Nepal fought a successful civil war from 1996 to 2006, while insisting that the GPCR was a good thing and the Chinese Famine was not man-made-- even then, people were literally willing to kill (and if need be, die) for them. Even after they gave up the bullet for the ballot, they were still able to gain 3 million+ votes, more so than any other party in Nepal.

Maoism is essentially a political religion. Just like a Young Earth Creationist is unconvinced by any number of biological, astronomical and geological arguments against their position that the earth is only few thousands of years old; So is the Maoist unconvinced by any fact you care to bring against their thesis that Chairman Mao was one of humanity's heroes.

 

[Plumber]

Well I was interested in a Maoist China radical enough to export revolution and for there to be a substantial "Maoist International" of pro-China groups and regimes. It doesn't have to be most radical of all possible Chinas.

The Cultural revolution will end on schedule, but will be seen as a good thing and be likely imitated in Peru, Nepal et al. That in itself is quite radical by OTL standards

Yeah, but if we work with POD of Mao dying '68 or '69, A Lin Biao takeover is more likely. Besides, even the Gang of Four's radicalism had limits, and had mostly agreed to clamp down on the more radical groupings such as the aforementioned "Shengwulian group" and "workers communes" forming across China.

Of course, there is always a chance of Lin being succeeded by somebody even more radical than the Gang of Four. Some of the members of the Cultural Revolution Group might back Lin against Jiang Qing in their power struggle, and thus be in that position. Once more, the cultural revolution being seen as a good thing might mean that a new one is unleashed every generation or so.

Maybe the headlines of 1986 would consist of Chen Boda's China launching the Second Great Proletarian Cultural Revolution.

Yikes, good point there. The Cultural Revolution being seen as a good thing increases the likelihood of there being another one, a more extreme one. The very opposite of OTL, where the Cultural Revolution pushed China towards capitalism as a reaction.

Maybe ITTL, UNITA remains pro-Chinese rather than go all the way towards embracing Anti-Communism. The Cubans fighting the Chinese in Angola might be very interesting.

Or failing that, there is always Somalia, or perhaps Tanzania.

It would be particularly interesting if Che was involved with UNITA as they fought the Cubans! Though of course, he's probably going to be off somewhere else starting revolts with Hoxha's money (wait, what money?)

Maoism is essentially a political religion. Just like a Young Earth Creationist is unconvinced by any number of biological, astronomical and geological arguments against their position that the earth is only few thousands of years old; So is the Maoist unconvinced by any fact you care to bring against their thesis that Chairman Mao was one of humanity's heroes.

Yes. Mao is China's Stalin, but he is also China's Lenin. Without Mao, there is no Maoism, and no ideological justification for the PRC. That's why the people who Mao purged and tortured did not tear down his image once they got into power under Deng.

 

[Elidor]

It would be particularly interesting if Che was involved with UNITA as they fought the Cubans! Though of course, he's probably going to be off somewhere else starting revolts with Hoxha's money (wait, what money?)

Maybe he oversees the construction of those Bunkers for a while, before going to fight for MLLT in Ethiopia, which will conveniently be both anti-Derg and anti-Somali.