wolf_brother
Banned
An earlier rise of the machine gun, though certainly not one we'd be familiar with, due to the successful use of the mitrailleuse opens up lots of possibilities in military affairs.
So does that mean France will end-up like OTL, not keeping very many of its former holdings, or will it keep some part of Africa?
It isn't clear to me why there can't be a southern German patriotism apart from a Northern one, leading to two nations rather than one.
Actually one reason is clear enough; there is no southern counterpart to Prussia, no one domineering Catholic German state that can plausibly threaten to conquer their neighbors directly--and if one were to rise its potential victims could count on Prussian aid. (Except maybe Bavaria at this point, but then Bavaria would come closest to fitting the bill of the one strong south German state the others would fear!)
I didn't realize until just a few moments ago that the Kulturkampf was not an Empire-wide policy at all but a matter of policy in the Kingdom of Prussia alone. And that it was directed against the Church's power in secular spheres, prompted largely by the rise of the Catholic Center party, which was pro-Imperial, but still a strong parliamentary bloc Bismarck could not control […] One proximate cause of the timing of the Kulturkampf in Prussia was the Vatican Council (now known as Vatican I) proclamation of the doctrine of Papal infallibility. It occurs to me the Vatican Council itself is likely to be butterflied at least in timing, agenda, and specific resolutions, and perhaps butterflied away completely.
The Wikipedia article on the First Vatican Council does not give me a lot of insight into precisely why it was convened at that particular time. In general, it presented itself as a response of the Church to the "manifold errors" of modern liberalism, and if I am reading between the lines correctly the Council chose to so strongly re-affirm and formalize as dogma the doctrine of Papal infallibility at that time because specific recent political events had undermined their confidence that Catholic doctrine would prevail due to their alliances with secular power.
It's hard for me to judge whether in this timeline they'd be more alarmed or less, or whether events in this timeline would cross the threshold of triggering a specific response of this nature at this very moment. Or how likely it was there would inevitably be some such council making much the same declarations sooner or later, versus the possibility of more piecemeal reforms and pronouncements and other maneuvers.
Anyway if the VC is merely a convenient hook to hang the general drift of 19th century Church policy on, and we presume that whether concentrated in one Council or scattered over a serious of ad hoc events, the outcome would be much the same, then presumably the general drift of the anti-Papist movements that considered the power of the Church an enemy to be defeated would also be much the same overall.
And now I'm thinking more about how Abacarism, related movements, and butterflies in general might look from an Ultramontane Catholic point of view. I think it's still early for them to take notice of the flock of anti-imperialist, native-spiritual movements as a perceived whole. But perhaps not, considering the explosive impact on Brazil!
I wonder, with Bavaria going against Prussia, does it remain in the Zollverein? Of course OTL German states that sided with Austria in 1866 didn't leave Zollverein, but...
As per my PM, I wonder if the better French performance is going to have much of an impact upon Britain's army reforms of the time. From a cursory review it appears that a lot of the reorganisation reforms were inspired by Prussia's success, although there was a fair bit more to the reforms than just that. Specifically relating to the reform's recommendation to make the self governing colonies principally responsible for their own defence
Does anyone know much about the Cardwell reforms? I would be interested in reading more
An earlier rise of the machine gun, though certainly not one we'd be familiar with, due to the successful use of the mitrailleuse opens up lots of possibilities in military affairs.
I'm also wondering how the Abacarist and Belloist influences in the Ottoman Empire might be felt during the Russo-Turkish war of 1877. OTL, it was a close-run thing, with the Ottomans mainly losing because their competent war minister got killed on the eve of the conflict. With Belloism shaking up the Ottoman government, we may see an Ottoman victory, or at least a draw.
There are several angles here. One, as has been said before, is that Bismarck won't want to turn the Catholics in the Southern states against unification of Gerrmany under Prussian hegemony. Then, ITTL, while still at the helm, he isn't the hero and maker of the new Empire as IOTL, he's just a powerful Prussian PM who has made the best out of a war that could have gone better. That may make him more insecure, depending more on those allies that fear the Catholics, or more cautious, trying to avoid fights he might lose. Third, if ultramontanism becomes tainted in Germany by association with French pro-papal politics, this may weaken political Catholicism substantially, by reducing or splitting it.This doesn't mean the Kulturkampf is unavoidable, but if you're looking to change the direction of Prussian domestic politics I'd suggest looking for something to change within Prussia.
Third, if ultramontanism becomes tainted in Germany by association with French pro-papal politics, this may weaken political Catholicism substantially, by reducing or splitting it.
Are they imported from the USA?It was mentioned that they were using Gatling-style mitrailleuses
Are they imported from the USA?
The mitrailleuses used by the French army (one of the first armies, if not the first, to employ this new weapon) were Reffye mitrailleuses, based on the design of the Belgian Montigny mitrailleuse.
They proved to be very useful but suffered from an unadapted doctrine of use, being still attached to the artillery corps at the rear rather than to infantry.
Pius IX's turn to reactionarism was chiefly caused by the assassination of his Interior Minister (and close friend), Pellegrino Rossi, by Italian radical nationalist republicans. However he'd always been an authoritarian figure, and one not likely to give into liberal reforms. That is, he 'liberalized' the Papal States to the extent that it modernized them and made them more efficient; anything that challenged his rule or that of the Church in any way he squashed quite viciously. So even with a tempered Garibaldi, you're unlikely to get a major change in the doctrine or direction of the Church in the mid-19th century.
This doesn't mean the Kulturkampf is unavoidable, but if you're looking to change the direction of Prussian domestic politics I'd suggest looking for something to change within Prussia.
What's more, if the regime is fully parliamentarian as Plon-Plon wanted it (indirect election of the Senators instead of imperial nominations and full responsibility of the ministers before the Corps Législatif instead of a vague and ambiguous responsibility, to quote his more important ideas), his control over foreign policy would be weak.
Is he still married to the very pious and catholic Princess Clothilde ITTL?
Are they imported from the USA? The mitrailleuses used by the French army (one of the first armies, if not the first, to employ this new weapon) were Reffye mitrailleuses, based on the design of the Belgian Montigny mitrailleuse. They proved to be very useful but suffered from an unadapted doctrine of use, being still attached to the artillery corps at the rear rather than to infantry.
To be fair, they also had an range that more suited them to artillery use than to the infantry. I've covered this before in another thread, but comparing the mitrailleuse to the Gatling is like comparing a roman candle to a sparkler.
According to my current outline, which is admittedly rough that far in the future, France today will have either three or four DOMs/TOMs in Africa, not counting Ile Réunion. Their combined population will be about eleven million, although one of them will account for three quarters of that.
There’s at least one other reason: the Zollverein. By this time, the southern German economies, and many of their institutions, were synchronized with northern Germany, which would mean that Prussia is still the natural attractor even if Berlin and Munich are temporarily on opposite sides of a war.
I’m hardly an expert, but I’d argue that while the First Vatican Council was in part a reaction to the general drift of European politics, it also had a specific trigger: the conquest of the Papal States by Italy. And that conquest, in turn, was triggered by the Papal States’ erstwhile protector, Napoleon III, being otherwise occupied, along with a good deal of France. So a drawn Franco-Prussian War and a surviving Bonapartist empire means, at least for the moment, survival of the Papal States – Napoleon IV will be more anti-clerical than his predecessor, but it will take time for him to break with established foreign policy, especially since, by this time, foreign relations are mostly the legislature’s call.
So, maybe, no First Vatican Council, no proclamation of papal infallibility, and no immediate fear that the Pope will try to direct German politics through Prussia’s bishops. Domestic factors such as the rise of the Catholic Center would remain, though, and Bavaria’s betrayal would still fuel anti-Catholic sentiment in Prussia.
But let’s walk things back a little further. Pio Nono started out as a liberal, and became a reactionary only after the 1848 revolutions. It’s already been established that the 1848 uprisings happened in this timeline, in substantially the same way as OTL – they took place soon after the POD, and in a place relatively unaffected by it. But one of the people who was immediately affected by the POD was Garibaldi, who was a successful army commander for the Piratini Republic, and a member of its cabinet after it gained independence, as opposed to moving on to Uruguay. By 1848, this Garibaldi would have more experience in practical politics and compromise to temper his idealism.
So maybe, while 1848 is substantially the same elsewhere in Europe, it’s different in Rome? Maybe Garibaldi could prevail on Mazzini and the Roman liberals to approach the Pope and negotiate a reform package rather than chasing him out of the city? No doubt Pio Nono would still become more conservative later, as the 1848 tide recedes and the demands for reform become more than he’s willing to grant, but he might not be the reactionary we know. And while France would still be the guarantor of the Papal States’ independence, it would take on that role in the context of its general support for Italian unification, and would do so with at least grudging Italian consent.
Could there possibly be, in this setting, a First Vatican Council that’s more like our Second – one that seeks to incorporate the liberalism of the time into Church doctrine rather than reacting against it? I have my doubts – even if Pio Nono is more liberal, there wouldn’t be a clear majority of bishops to support such a step. But maybe, by 1870, there would be a definite tension between the ultramontane, deeply conservative wing of the Church and the more liberal elements, with the French “ultras” in Eugénie’s coterie being not only somewhat behind French public opinion but also behind Rome.
And how would all this feed back into the Kulturkampf? For one thing, the Prussian Catholics might not be as politically united – instead of a powerful Catholic Center, there might be a Catholic liberal party and a Catholic conservative party which form natural ideological alliances rather than carving out a distinct political space based on religion. They’d still try to influence liberalism and conservatism in Catholic directions, but that isn’t quite the same thing. So Bismarck won’t feel the need to neutralize a growing opposition bloc, because there won’t be any such bloc, which would leave the Bavarian Dolchstoss as the only source of an anti-Catholic backlash. Things might be nasty for a while, and as noted above I’d expect Prussian liberals to use the backlash as a platform to secularize the state, but I don’t think it would last long, because the anger against Bavaria would eventually recede and (unlike OTL) Bismarck wouldn’t be egging on the anti-Catholics.
Although, in Brazil, the Malê revolt was more the straw that broke the camel’s back during the Time of Troubles than a major local influence. The separatist republics weren’t Muslim or Muslim-influenced, and although the cult of the yamali spread among northern Brazilian slaves and played a part in the revolt of 1857-58, the cultists worshipped legendary Muslims rather than adopting actual Islam. And of course, the Abacarist doctrines weren’t developed until the Malê were already in Sokoto and Paulo Abacar was able to receive an orthodox Islamic education, although he was no doubt thinking about issues of God and liberty while he led a guerrilla fight in the mountains. So I’m far from sure the Church, much less its ultramontane wing, would make the connection between Abacarism and Brazil’s troubles.
I also doubt there will be much Abacarist influence in Cuba – Abacarism is taking root in places where there’s already an Afro-Islamic presence, and the Afro-Cubans were pretty thoroughly Christianized by that time. On the other hand, Spain will definitely come up against Abacarism in Morocco, and there may be indirect influences elsewhere. And as you say, “Abacarism combines the errors of Islam with the errors of liberalism in one devilish mix,” so Spanish and French ultras may indeed see Abacarism even where it isn’t, and I could definitely see this becoming a point of church-state contention. But that’s mostly in the future at this point.
Bismarck will want them to stay in the Zollverein, because (a) he’ll still want to use it as a platform for German unification, and (b) as noted above, the more integrated the southern German economies are with the NDB’s economy, the less likely it is that southern German nationalism will re-form around an alternate pole. And Bavaria will want to stay in, because it has no realistic alternative – what’s it going to do, use all those seaports in the Alps? A customs union with France won’t help (even assuming that France is interested), because only the Palatinate has a border with France, and goods from the rest of Bavaria would have to transit Zollverein states to reach French ports. Austrian seaports are far away and nowhere near as good as Hamburg, Bremen or Kiel. So I’m guessing that it will be a bad marriage that stays together for the sake of the exports.
According to Wikipedia (yeah, I know), the Cardwell reforms were already under way by 1870, and that the impetus was Prussia’s success against Austria in 1866. The main features appear to have been abolishing the sale of commissions, introducing short-service enlistments, reorganization of regiments, and devolving self-defense responsibilities to the “white dominions” – all of which, I think, were bound to happen sooner or later. So I think we still get something like the Cardwell reforms, at more or less the same time. On the other hand, the British army after the Cardwell reforms was still geared toward colonial warfare – it wasn’t until the Haldane reforms of 1906-12 that the army really became reoriented toward a large land war – so the British army in this timeline may still be substantially less prepared for the Great War than its OTL counterpart.
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