Making a confusing, overly-complex political system

Here's an idea: What if some country made an overly complicated political system that ended up being so complicated and confusing, that it functioned as free and fair because nobody would be able to figure out how to abuse it for their own gain.

Some guidelines:
-The system shouldn't be confusing on purpose, like OTL North Korea which gives people titles that have nothing to do with their duties so that foreign powers won't know who to target for assassination. It should just end up overly complex after many years of exceptions and loopholes.
-What the HRE was to administrative division, this is to branches and departments of government.
-Every branch of government operates on its own rules.
-The phrases "Separation of Powers" and "Fusion of Powers" should be meaningless. Some things should overlap and some things should separate, with no real rhyme or reason behind them.

Here are some ideas:
-Lots of branches of government, each of which has a role to play in creating, enforcing, and interpreting the law.
-Overlapping authorities, meaning there are at least two ways to do just about anything.
-This includes multiple ways of resolving contradictions when the two methods end up with different results.
-There are two executives, the monarch and the elected representative. There are many houses of legislature, and which houses are involved depend on the type of law being passed and who it affects.
-There is an independent judiciary, but it also shares law enforcement power alongside the two executives and an independent auditing branch.
-Have elements of the UK Parliament and legal structure, which has centuries of tradition and documents to draw from that all represent very different views of government where the Judiciary's duty is to make sense of it all; combine it with the clusterfuck of special privileges made from cloak-and-dagger politicking that was the HRE government; add to it the United States's system that gives subnational entities the authority to govern themselves and limited authority to override the central government.

I made a writeup with histories of the various houses of legislature. This is only for national government; the individual subnational governments will be similar but each will have its own bizarre differences and special powers. Some subnational entities are fully sovereign with respect to law, except when they aren't, while other entities are completely subordinate to the national government or nearly so, depending on the nature of the deals that the King and/or Parliament have made with them over the course of centuries.

The tentative PoD is that Anglo-Saxon England unifies very early and successfully invades the HRE when the latter goes through a rough patch. The next few centuries are filled with efforts to make the different petty lords happy that build up quickly. Efforts to simplify government are usually so radical by necessity that they are seen as an underhanded way of usurping authority, hence the complexity.

A Law is generally introduced in the Popular House or the House of Nobles, then they vote on which other house to send it to next depending on what the law actually entails. The next house makes changes, and the next, and the next, then it gets approved by the Royal House, the House of God, and the House of Nobles, none of which bother to convene except when politics demand it. If it fails to get approval from one or more of them, it has to get approval from some other houses; each house has a number of points that go toward overriding the veto. Exactly how many points is needed to override depends on which house refused to approve it, and changes depending on the circumstances of the case as decided by the House of Law. Once it has gone through enough houses enough times, people just decide it's good enough and send it to the Office of the King, which is not the King himself but a rubber stamp with his face on it. The law is stamped and made into law. The law is then interpreted by each House according to their respective judicial branches, most of which are vestigial in nature.

Royal House-
The oldest house. Formerly consisted only of the King and his legitimate sons, it now consists of all the King's family, defined as people who are present in the royal line of succession. It was started in the 11th century as a way for the King to stop his children from feuding; it sort of worked but for a while it was pure cloak-and-dagger. In the modern era, the house is generally seen as inconsequential. While most laws technically have to be approved by it, in practice it abstains unless the Royal Family, the succession, or the Royal Residences are directly concerned. The King was originally the head of this House; now it is his designated successor, usually the crown prince or princess; the title therefore is First Prince.

House of Nobles-
The second-oldest house. In the 13th century, a group of nobles took the King hostage and forced him to include them in governance. The result was this house. Originally, only designated noblemen were allowed to participate, but since the 16th century all landholding members of the Nobility sit in the House. This is subdivided into sub-houses based on noble rank, although some noble families are allowed to sit on higher sub-houses. From its founding, the House of Nobles has had the ability to nullify any decree by the King, and the ability to submit petitions to the King which could be made into law if the King consented. Later, in the 18th century, the ability to introduce and pass legislation unilaterally was added. The House of Nobles is considered a major government House, even in the modern era, although it has less authority than it used to. The Speaker of the House of Nobles is an inherited title attached to a certain holding, although that holding has changed a few times since the House's founding.

House of God-
The third-oldest house. Not long after the House of Nobles was established, the Catholic Church persuaded the King to establish a House for bishops residing within the Kingdom. The Church could originally nominate anyone to sit in the House without needing Royal approval. However, this right was revoked during a dispute between the Crown and the Church in the 15th century. After the Protestant Wars, the Protestants were allowed to appoint their own officials to the House of God. In modern times, members of minority religions are also represented. The makeup of the House of God was originally regulated by individual acts of legislation, but now it is apportioned according to census, and many members are elected from members of their respective religious communities. The position of Speaker is chosen by the House itself in a secret conclave that is said to mimic that of the Vatican. The House of God has no ability to introduce laws but most laws do require its approval.

During the three-house era, all three houses needed to consent for the King to pass laws and decrees. When subsequent Houses were founded, the rule was changed so that different types of law required different Houses to vote.

House of the Hammer-
The House of the Hammer is responsible for introducing regulations on trades, businesses, and industries.It has existed in some form since the 13th century, but it was not made a full government institution until the 17th century. The House was initially led by blacksmiths and carpenters, hence the name. It represents craftsmen, tradesmen, professionals, and originally merchants as well. The wealthy merchants sought to control the House, but the other members overwhelmed them, leading to the establishment of the House of Gold not long after. In the 19th century, unions were added to the House, leading to its current form. Citizens who are certified in certain professions or who are dues-paying union members are allowed to vote for Men of the Hammer. The House votes for its speaker, but usually it's the eldest member of a major union who gets the role.

House of Gold-
The fifth house. After the House of the Hammer was established, the merchants sought to control it, but they were frustrated in their attempts. Eventually, they reached a deal where they had their own House, but with fewer powers than the other Houses. Seats are decided by auction every term; in essence, a member of this house must pay each term to keep his or her seat. Originally, the proceeds from the auction went to the richest members, but this was changed so that the money is instead sent directly into the government budget. In the 19th century, the growth in wealth following industrialization led to more power for the House of Gold as well; at its apex, it was responsible for collecting taxes and other revenues while its own members were exempt from most of them. Its powers were severely curtailed before long, and many of its more egregious members were barred from holding seats. Even so, today the House of Gold still has significant power as it represents the moneyed interests and corporations. The position of Speaker is decided in a special, separate auction.

House of Commoners-
The most powerful house, probably. In the late 18th century, popular movements among peasants, petty landowners, and the 80% of society which were not represented in Houses led to the creation of the House of Commoners. Originally, every county elected a single representative, but as urbanization grew and some counties became more populous than others, it was changed to the current practice of establishing electoral districts with nearly equal population. The leader of this house is termed the Popular Minister; he is considered Head of Government and is elected not by house members but directly in a national election. The PM has power over the other houses, except when he doesn't, which is often.

Special houses- these have relatively weak legislative authority, but are still important in running the government. They might be considered separate branches of government, except they have overlapping authorities in many areas

House of Law-
With the establishment of the House of Commoners, there was a call for law enforcement to come under control of the People after abuses by the Crown. However, the other houses felt that the leaders of the House of Commoners were plotting to usurp control of the government, and sought to keep it in the hands of the King himself. As a compromise, the House of Law was established to make it independent from both. The house represents law enforcement officers, judges, lawyers, and everyone else involved in the legal process. The House of Law is responsible for prosecuting crime, conducting investigations, and administering punishment. It has proven invaluable as a neutral party in reducing corruption, working closely with the Administrative House, but as always it's never clear exactly who is supposed to do what.

Administrative House-
Not an official house in that it has no sitting members and no ability to legislate, but it has powers over other houses that make it important all the same. The Administrative House is responsible for maintaining the bureaucracy that keeps all the other houses functioning by examining and auditing government workers in each House. It also operates the Postal Service. Later, it also became responsible for audits of higher officials, as well as revenue collection and appropriations although it has virtually no discretion when it comes to the latter. The head of the Administrative House is called the Administrative Secretary, and is promoted to the position internally for an indefinite term until he or she retires.

Minor government houses- these houses have legislative authority but are severely limited in scope. Most of these were founded in the 20th century.

House of the Quill-
With the adoption of enlightenment ideals in the 18th century, a house for learned individuals was established. As many enlightenment philosophers and thinkers belonged to secret societies, the House of the Quill became the unofficial house of secret societies and fraternities. As popular resentment towards these groups grew in the 19th century, it was changed so that only universities and their professors would be included. The House was never powerful, but it pioneered the push toward compulsory education; it still has broad powers where education is concerned. The House of the Quill also provides expert opinions for the other Houses, making it somewhat influential. The leader of the house is termed the Quill President, and is traditionally decided after a week of various debates that concern not only policy but also knowledge in a number of fields.

House of the Shield-
Possibly the least powerful house. With jingoism, compulsory military service, and the general expansion of the military in the 19th century, and with total war a constant fear, the military was made an official organ of government and given broad powers to both legislate and appropriate in times of war and sometimes in times of peace as well. When the World Wars ended, it was renamed the House of the Shield and its powers were curtailed to cover only defense and Veterans' Affairs. Generals and Admirals have seats here, making this the smallest house in terms of membership. The leader of the house is the highest-ranking officer; if more than one have the same rank, the most senior prevails. The leader is referred to as the Commander.

House of Nationalities-
Established in the late 20th century as a way of addressing past grievances against various ethnicities, the House of Nationalities represents historically oppressed ethnic groups and other minorities, including immigrants. Generally, the elected or selected chief of each recognized ethnic group sends one representative, and the House itself determines which ethnic groups are recognized. Most immigrant communities are also represented here, although there is talk of expelling some of the more affluent immigrant groups from the House. Nobody knows what the House of Nationalities' actual powers are; it's not supposed to be powerful but occasionally they show up unexpectedly and change things around so who knows. The leader of this house is called the Speaker, but the members are generally called chiefs.
 
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I'm no expert, but I heard that the republic of Venice had a complicated system. Although it was more about the election process, which included lots.
 
I'm no expert, but I heard that the republic of Venice had a complicated system. Although it was more about the election process, which included lots.
Well you could try combining the Lebanese confessional constitution with functional representation as above and seen in say the original Hong Kong electoral system (under British rule), crossed with the system used to elect the Irish Presidency in days gone by, add a rotational monarchy as per Malaysia, add some Princely states, some free Hanseatic style cities, and some tribal territories like the NW frontier Districts, and some various indigenous reservations, have different court systems for each race and religious faith, along with customary law in tribal areas and communities. Add various overseas territories, crown dependencies and fiefs held by various members of the peerage and have the various layers of Monarch and Peer intermarry so all the lines of fealty are totally tangled. Then just for fun issue some Royal Charters to companies to run various territories as concessionary states ie the EIC and HBC.
That should do for a start, but perhaps one could also add self governing religious statelets, free Abbeys and every complicated state needs independent Imperial Knights and Prince-Bishops, oh and some fully sovereign religious orders.
 
See; Holy Roman Empire. That thing was next to impossible to fully understand, and multi tiered enough despite only respresenting the aristocracy/top tiers of society. If it was pushed to semi democratize; adding on another series of layers for the represenative portions of government and those represenative portions of each of its 300+ parts (Say, the new Imperial condtiution mandates all members have a government with a popular assembly, or for added fun an estates general!) and you have a true fragmentation of authority scattered over 1001 bodies, with membership requirements for each one that highly limit overlap (one, after all, can only be of one estate/class in one realm) that would prevent consolidation of power
 
You could pretty much just copy the administrative system of any late-stage empire. Rome/Byzantine beaurocracy are of course famous, I'm sure Manchu or Ming would be around the same level of "sophistication." Modren America as well, maybe the EU?
 
I'm no expert, but I heard that the republic of Venice had a complicated system. Although it was more about the election process, which included lots.

I was toying with the idea of a lottery deciding who got to be the head of one of the houses, but which one?

You could pretty much just copy the administrative system of any late-stage empire. Rome/Byzantine beaurocracy are of course famous, I'm sure Manchu or Ming would be around the same level of "sophistication." Modren America as well, maybe the EU?

I based the administrative house directly on the ROC's legislative yuan.

See; Holy Roman Empire. That thing was next to impossible to fully understand, and multi tiered enough despite only respresenting the aristocracy/top tiers of society. If it was pushed to semi democratize; adding on another series of layers for the represenative portions of government and those represenative portions of each of its 300+ parts (Say, the new Imperial condtiution mandates all members have a government with a popular assembly, or for added fun an estates general!) and you have a true fragmentation of authority scattered over 1001 bodies, with membership requirements for each one that highly limit overlap (one, after all, can only be of one estate/class in one realm) that would prevent consolidation of power

Basically the inspiration for the thread.
 

Md139115

Banned
I wrote something a year ago for a role play that involved the US disintegrating just after the revolution. This was the executive branch of an enlarged Pennsylvania, based on the original body of that commonwealth immediately after independence:


The executive branch is concentrated on a 21-person Supreme Executive Council, whose members are elected by districts formed from the combination of 20 contiguous legislative districts. As with the Assembly, the Councilors sit for three year terms with one-third of the seats of the Council up for election each year. In the early days of the Republic, the Council was formed by one representative from each county of the Republic (and one from the City of Philadelphia) but the continued expansion of the Republic made such an arrangement vastly unwieldy, so after reaching a high of 46 members in 1849, the present arrangement was adopted. The President and Vice-President of the Republic are elected from the Council by the Assembly for one year terms, with the Council vetoing the choice if they find it unacceptable. In practice, this makes coalition governments and/or compromise deals the norm in the Republic, as the likelihood of controlling both the Assembly and the Council by one party at the same time has historically been rare. In addition to the President and the Vice President, there are 19 other senior executive offices of state that must be filled by Council members, creating what President Walt Whitman described as “undoubtedly the most bizarre and awkward working environment on Earth.” The duties of the Council are to fill military commissions, conduct foreign policy, enforce the laws of the Republic, grant pardons and commutations, pass emergency ordinances (which, as per the constitution, may only last for a maximum of three months), call the assembly into emergency session, and make executive and judicial appointments. Votes are by simple majority, with the President serving as tie-breaker. The President of the Republic also has the responsibility of acting as head of state, and as commander-in-chief of the uniformed services.


Of course the obvious issue with such a government is that it essentially requires that the opposition parties always head at least some of the major departments of government, creating a situation where, hypothetically, the liberals are in power but the socialists control Justice and Labor and the Conservatives have the Army, Navy, and Foreign Office, and the far right has Interior.
 

Alcsentre Calanice

Gone Fishin'
Jacques-Louis_David_-_Portrait_of_Emmanuel-Joseph_Sieyès_-_WGA06098.jpg


Count Sieyès replied to your question.
 

Aurantiacis

Gone Fishin'
Have foreign condominiums to keep both sides happy. This could be cranked up to like steroids when you have seperate zones and exclaves and enclaves for neighboring entities
 

Deleted member 114175

Complex, but not complicated.

Every individual becomes their own sovereign nation, with the ability to govern themselves.

True Anarchism?
 
Complex, but not complicated.

Every individual becomes their own sovereign nation, with the ability to govern themselves.

True Anarchism?

People get dead very very fast in "wars". Government is soon reformed in very simple way as militas of folks seeking not to get killed for their shiney objects while they sleep form co-operative security groups.
 

xsampa

Banned
Male Rising's World technically counts as one giant example of this. For example, in terms of simple administrative entities there are:
1. States
2. Autonomous regions. IIRC, autonomy means you get to have foreign relations and sign treaties.
3. Codominions
4. Princely States
5: Dominions
6. Legatum. Basically mandates, trust territories but the Court of Arbitration (think World court with teeth) has right to remove them if you misbehave.

The complex ones
7. Watershed authorities: councils of countries that oversee rivers and their watersheds
8. Treaty unions. Unions of states/regions bound by a treaty with multiple levels. Sometimes, as with TTL's China, TUs can form the core of a recognized nation [core+autonomous+vassals] and also reach into the periphery.
9. Multinational blocs.
 
What about something like a charter company forming a concessionary state, and one may vote for the officers of the company, but the weight of one's vote is determined by how many shares they hold in company stock?
 
Why hasn't anyone mentioned overlapping jurisdictions or states that share territory with other states? How about a state primarily composed of overlapping jurisdictions?
 
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