Make Man In High Castle Plausible ?

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Starting to watch Episode 3 and I'm pondering if there is a way to make the overall plot plausible ?

I think the background is reasonable (FDR death in 33, isolationist US, etc)

Also fairly reasonable is the idea that absent US aid the UK and USSR can't hold out against Germany.

Absent oil embargo and US aid I think Japan could probably beat China.

Though in both cases it might take until middle/late 40's for final victory.

So US conquest in 47 (per book IIRC) is out of the window.

But give Germany the rest of the 40's early 50's to build up, add in German atomic weapons (and potentially the US scrambling to catch up) then perhaps some time in the 50's we could see this playing out.

So 1962 could be the early years of the US conquest.

Admittedly it requires a running of the table for the Axis but it could happen on a more drawn out timeline.

Thoughts ?
 
Hate to be a negative Nancy but they couldn't even cross the English channel at the height of their power, let alone the Atlantic. And defeating the soviet union opens a whole new can of worms. The novel was never intended to be a plausible alternative history. But feel free to try prove us wrong! I would happily read such a timeline given it was plausible enough :)
 
ASB. The earliest POD possible is Germany winning WW1. That gives Germany the chance to develop atomic weapons, intercontinental jet bombers, AND ICBMs before the Americans do on their own--something that isn't impossible if Germany is the world's 2nd largest economy and far and away the pre-eminent scientific powerhouse...both easy outcomes of a victorious Germany in WW1.

Then, have that Germany Nuke the US government into capitulation, Germany and Japan move in and voila. Man in the High Castle.

The problem is no nazis...hence, ASB.
 

Martynn

Banned
TMITHC (book) is actually quite plausible - it just has some problems with the right dates.

According to the book the Germans win the BoB yet somehow Britain holds out - without LL - untill late 1944/early 1945 - and the Axis doesnt conquer Cairo until the summer of 1945.....

However I give Dick great credit for making a TL where at least the basics are solid - he just failed to think about the exact dates. So here an attempt:

- Roosevelt is assassinated in early 1933 - Garner becomes president

- Garner supports a balanced federal budget and opposes deficit spending. As a result he does not make any "New Deal" like investments and reduces spending for the military substantially

- When war breaks out in Europe in September 1939, the US unemployment rate is still over 20% and US infrastructure lies in ruins. The Army has less than 50 000 men - the Navy is even weaker.
Since under Garner there was no Vinson Trimmel Act, no naval act of 1936, no naval act of 1938, in late 1941 the US Navy has 1/3 its OTL strenght only 3 aircraft carriers (8 OTL) 6 Battleships (17 OTL) 12 cruisers (37 OTL) 56 Destroyers (171 OTL).

- In 1940 Bricker gets elected president. He has to deal with a country left in ruins by Garner - on top of that he is a great opponent of centralized government - thus he fails to mobilize the war economy. Production figures would have been perhaps a tenth of OTL production - meaning just some 400 tanks and 3000 aircraft in 1941, 2500 tanks and 5000 aircraft in 1942 and 3000 tanks and 8500 aircraft in 1943. With these production figures Cash and carry and LL is out of the window - this means:

- Britain does not run out of cash since it can buy almost nothing from the US - but without the aircraft received through cash and carry in 1940 (2000 pieces) it does much worse in the BoB.

- With no LL British troops in NA are far weaker and Britains food situation becomes dire by the summer of 1941.

- During the winter of 1941/42 tens of thousands of Britons starve to death - coupled with the loss of Malta - which is conquered by the Germans in the summer of 1942 - this leads to Churchill beeing kicked out of office.

- Cairo is conquered by the end of 1942 - this in combination with the ever increasing mortality rate due to the famine - leads to a British surrender by early 1943.

- By late 1943 the Soviet Union collapses. At the end of 1942 the first signs of famine started to appear, by the spring of 1943 tens of thousands were dying every month. Due to the loss of the Caucasus the Red Army was deprived of its oil - and due to the famine there was rebellion and unrest throughout the entire country. The German offensive of 1943 pushed the remaining Soviet forces across the Urals - after the Soviet surrender, Siberia and Central Asia were classified as preserves where the remaining population of the USSR could live out their lives.

- On the other side of the globe the Japanese attack against Pearl Harbour in 1941 had been a full success. 2 out of 3 aircraft carriers,2 out of 6 battleships, 1 out of 12 crusiers and 3 out of 56 destroyers were sunk.

- In the Battle of Midway half a year later - the Japanese reduced the US Navy by a further aircraft carrier,2 Battelships, 5 cruisers and 12 destroyers - additionally they conquered the island successfully.

- With the US navy neutralized - the Japanese conquered Hawaii by the end of 1942, with the British surrender in early 1943 - they swiftly annexed India and conquered Australia and New Zeeland by the end of 1943 - at the end of 1943 they even annexed parts of Siberia.

- By early 1944 the US was the only remaining threat to Axis hegemony. Germany and Japan decided to invade it. After the British surrender, Germany had taken over a large part of the Royal Navy, the Japanese on the other hand had sustained very few casualties.

- In late 1944 - during the presidential election - the US was attacked with a coordinated attack by both Germany and Japan simultaneously. The US army which had been expanded from less than 50 000 in 1939 to more than 500 000 in 1944 -fought bravely - but was eventually overwhelmed by the numerically and tactically superior invading force. After one and a half years of fighting - the US surrendered and was divided into a German and Japanese zone - with the American Midwest - renamed Rocky Mountain states - serving as a buffer between the two victorious empires.
 
TMITHC (book) is actually quite plausible - it just has some problems with the right dates.

The trouble is a transatlantic invasion is pretty much never going to be plausible for the Nazis. It's difficult for them to build a sufficient fleet, and pretty damn near impossible for the US to not notice that construction and take its fingers out of its ears and react.

And Japan is NEVER going to threaten the West Coast. Their logistics were laughably bad.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Much less the reality the US had 14 battleships as

Much less the US had 14 capital ships and four fleet carriers as powerful as anything the Japanese had in 1933 in commission or on the ways, much less the reality the US economy was something like five times that of any other power in the 1930s, New Deal or no New Deal.

Dick was, at times, an engaging writer but a lousy historian, economist, and strategist - and his abilities as a logistician are pretty suspect as well.:rolleyes:

Best,
 
Much less the US had 14 capital ships and four fleet carriers as powerful as anything the Japanese had in 1933 in commission or on the ways, much less the reality the US economy was something like five times that of any other power in the 1930s, New Deal or no New Deal.

Dick was, at times, an engaging writer but a lousy historian, economist, and strategist - and his abilities as a logistician are pretty suspect as well.:rolleyes:

Best,

The problem is that Mr. Dick apparently brought into the idea that the Allies in WW2 were scrappy underdogs, always on the verge of losing until they pulled off an unlikely victory. The truth may be more complicated, but that doesn't make an engaging story.
 
The problem is that Mr. Dick apparently brought into the idea that the Allies in WW2 were scrappy underdogs, always on the verge of losing until they pulled off an unlikely victory. The truth may be more complicated, but that doesn't make an engaging story.

In fairness to Dick, when he wrote the book in the Sixties, a lot of information about WWII that's now in the public domain was still classified. He didn't have all the facts.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
The fact the entire novel is based on a Great Man theory run rampant

The problem is that Mr. Dick apparently brought into the idea that the Allies in WW2 were scrappy underdogs, always on the verge of losing until they pulled off an unlikely victory. The truth may be more complicated, but that doesn't make an engaging story.

The fact the entire novel is based on a Great Man theory run rampant is where it runs off the rails, and it's not like social and economic history should have been unknown to anyone who spent anytime at Cal.

Cripes, growing up in the San Francisco Bay area in the 1940s would make the realities of Twentieth Century economic mobilization in wartime pretty clear, one would think.

Best,
 

TFSmith121

Banned
Are you kidding?

In fairness to Dick, when he wrote the book in the Sixties, a lot of information about WWII that's now in the public domain was still classified. He didn't have all the facts.

Are you kidding? All he had to do was look at a map.

It's fantasy; he may as well have set it in Middle Earth.

Best,
 

Martynn

Banned
The trouble is a transatlantic invasion is pretty much never going to be plausible for the Nazis. It's difficult for them to build a sufficient fleet, and pretty damn near impossible for the US to not notice that construction and take its fingers out of its ears and react.

And Japan is NEVER going to threaten the West Coast. Their logistics were laughably bad

The Nazis dont need to build a fleet - with the victory and occupation of Britain - they would get dozens of warships and hundreds of merchant ships from the Royal Navy - enough to pull up a "Torch" like invasion with some 200 000 men directly from Europe against the US.

The same applies to the Japanese - their losses in this TL would have been much much smaller than OTL - it would have sufficed to land just 100 000 soldiers on the West coast.

Remember in this TL the US economy and infrastructure lies in ruins - Garner did not manage to lead the US out of the great depression and did not build up the navy as Roosevelt did - Bricker is opposed to the very idea of a centralized government - thus there is no centralized production - and no conscription.

In late 1944 when the Axis attacks the US is around the level it was in late 1940 OTL - and a late 1940 OTL US army would simply not have been able to repell a decent invasion force.

US weakness in this TL might seem strange to us since OTL under Roosevelt the US did so much better - however it is perfectly plausible.

After all in a parallel reality where Ghenghis Khan died as a child - no one would believe you that the Mongolic tribes conquered half of Eurasia....
 
The Nazis dont need to build a fleet - with the victory and occupation of Britain - they would get dozens of warships and hundreds of merchant ships from the Royal Navy - enough to pull up a "Torch" like invasion with some 200 000 men directly from Europe against the US.

Just one point: who would man all those ships? You surely don't think that UK crews can be impressed into service?
 
And whose to say the Royal Navy would not pull a high seas fleet type maneuver and send the ship's out to sea and scuttle them rather than let the Germans have them?
 
The idea of Germany and Japan invading the US seems pretty ridiculous no matter what.

If Germany is successful against the USSR they are going to have a huge expanse of new territory to administer which is going to eat up a lot of manpower.

If in this timeline the US is isolationist and not a threat to Germany why would they spend all the resources trying to build a giant invasion fleet to carry an Army across the Atlantic along with the shipping that would be required to support it.

I think the most Japan could possibly muster would be to capture Hawaii, that would be stretching them logistically. They would also be occupied for quite awhile trying to govern all the parts of China they had conquered.

The US had industry disbursed throughout the country so even if Germany and/or Japan was able to land forces and establish a beachhead the US would still have the resources to continue the fight. There would also be large partisan activity requiring the Axis to devote a lot of troops to maintain control over any occupied areas. Even if they magically had enough logistics and shipping to supply them they wouldn't have the manpower to occupy the USSR, China and the US at the same time.
 
Furthermore, we can see from the discussion of a timeline based on Hitler's intentions in Zwietes Buch that any plan to retool Germany's economy to make it plausibly assault the United States would lead to insane strategic and economic decisions.
 
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