Ludendorff captured in Lüttich

11th September 1914: Ludendorff arrives in Britain in captivity. Befitting his rank, he is imprisoned in furnished rooms in the Tower of London. Russian troops take Lemberg.

14th September 1914: 1st Battle of the Masurian Lakes inconclusive. All rail links east of Antwerp now destroyed by Belgian and BEF detachments.

15th Sept: German forces besiege Valenciennes in Northern France. Learning from the tactics employed at Namur, Sir John French orders semi-guerilla tactics from some of his battalions outside the town.

19th Sept: BEF attack on the flank of von Kluck's siege army succeeds in destroying 3 German "Big Berthas".

24th Sept: Siege of Przemsyl begins.

25th Sept: Siege of Valenciennes lifted. Under increasing strain, von Bulow and von Kluck fall back to Quievrain, just over the border in Belgium.

26th Sept: Terrified of a Russian advance, German OHL orders several regiments east.

28th Sept: Allied artillery begins to hammer German positions at Quievrain. BEF troops come under attack at Fort Breendonk near Antwerp.

29th Sept: BEF and Belgian troops dig in around Antwerp. One BEF battalion killed to the last man near Tongerlo.

30th September 1914: Allied infantry offensive begins the Battle of Quievrain.

2nd October 1914: More British troops arrive in Antwerp. Breendonk falls. Battle of the Vistula River ends-no German advance.

3rd October: Brilliant tactics by von Bulow and von Kluck drive the Allies out of Quievrain-the town, however, is flattened.
 
The problem of Germany is in East Prussia: The Russians attacked with two armies against one German army; the German commander, von Prittwitz first wanted to attack one of them (forgot which one), but then the other one approached, he panicked and wanted to retreat behind the Vistula. He was changed, and some troops from the West were moved - although Hindenburg and Ludendorff pointed out that they'd come too late anyway.

We could see the Russians overrun East Germany very well. They even took half of East Prussia IOTL. The question is how far they'd come.
 
Wendell said:
Exactly! Is it possible?

I'm intrigued by the idea! That's an interesting one to consider later on, I might well add that to the timeline. Do you think he might atempt a coup if he returned?

@Max Sinister: My knowledge of the Eastern Front is a bit lacklustre, so any advice you can offer would be gratefully received.
 
Nice developments, but I'm wondering a bit what the French army is doing meanwhile.

Also, who is facing the German army between Quiévrain and Breendonck?
 
SteveW said:
I'm intrigued by the idea! That's an interesting one to consider later on, I might well add that to the timeline. Do you think he might atempt a coup if he returned?

@Max Sinister: My knowledge of the Eastern Front is a bit lacklustre, so any advice you can offer would be gratefully received.
I think he could possibly attempt a coup-even if it is merely one to replace the Kaiser with the Crown Prince.
 
Difficult to tell what Ludendorff would do in such a case. I can see him rather in the same role as OTL - Germany goes republican after the Kaiser has lost so badly, and some people, Ludendorff among them, want to change that.
 
Max Sinister said:
Difficult to tell what Ludendorff would do in such a case. I can see him rather in the same role as OTL - Germany goes republican after the Kaiser has lost so badly, and some people, Ludendorff among them, want to change that.
Better Ludendorff than Hitler. Then again, Ludendorff did spend some time in the Nazi Party, IIRC:mad:
 
benedict XVII said:
Nice developments, but I'm wondering a bit what the French army is doing meanwhile.

Also, who is facing the German army between Quiévrain and Breendonck?

Good point, I'd forgotten about that. I imagine Brussels has fallen, but I'm not entirely sure as to who will hold the line there. Maybe a joint Belgian-British force?

As for the French army, I imagine the burden around Quievrain will lie mainly with them.
 
6th October 1914- Franchet d'Esperey attacks near Dentergem but is repulsed.

7th October- Under orders to keep the Germans off French territory in the North, Joffre orders troops to dig in from near Quievrain as far as the Luxembourg border.

9th October- German artillery begin shelling Antwerp's forts.

10th October- Breendonk comes under siege. 2nd Battle of the Vistula begins, Hindenburg boosted by redeployments from the Western Front.

11th October- Asquith orders two more gunboats to Antwerp. Belgian army blows up Liers station and all its junctions.

14th October- von Kluck fails to defeat Allied troops entrenching near Quievrain.

17th October- Russian forces fall back towards Warsaw. German lines are holding in central East Prussia.

18th October- In a stunning blow to the German assault on Antwerp, partisans blow up 3 sections of the Brussels-Breendonk road, slowing German supply efforts.

19th October- von Kluck again fails to break Allied lines near Quievrain. OHL gives the order to dig in.

21st October-German troops attack Belfort as a diversion.

22nd October-a small British gunboat on the Scheldt shells a German infantry post, killing 49.

24th October- Asquith sends Kitchener to take over the Scheldt Front.
 
Nice developments.

I guess the French would entrench along the Semois from Givet to the Luxembourg border. Would provide nice defensive position.

In the West, I would say the front would run along the Dender, slightly Northwest of Quiévrain, through Denderleeuw, Alost and Dendermonde, where it would join the outer ring of the Antwerp forts. Most of that section would be held by the BEF, I'd think. Maybe the Belgian 4th division could be sent to that sector after the retreat from Namur. This also means Brussels and Leuven would be occupied.

Also, the Belgian government was very keen not to have partisan warfare to avoid reprisals against civilians. This said, Belgian units (esp. the cyclists) were excellent at infiltrating German lines in Aug.-Sept. 1914 to perform various reconnaissance or sabotage work. Btw, with the reverses they suffer, I'd guess German exactions against the Belgian civilian population would be even more horrendous in TTL.

If Germany does not control the Belgian North Sea harbors, this will change the entire face of the submarine warfare.
 
benedict XVII said:
Nice developments.

I guess the French would entrench along the Semois from Givet to the Luxembourg border. Would provide nice defensive position.

In the West, I would say the front would run along the Dender, slightly Northwest of Quiévrain, through Denderleeuw, Alost and Dendermonde, where it would join the outer ring of the Antwerp forts. Most of that section would be held by the BEF, I'd think. Maybe the Belgian 4th division could be sent to that sector after the retreat from Namur. This also means Brussels and Leuven would be occupied.

Also, the Belgian government was very keen not to have partisan warfare to avoid reprisals against civilians. This said, Belgian units (esp. the cyclists) were excellent at infiltrating German lines in Aug.-Sept. 1914 to perform various reconnaissance or sabotage work. Btw, with the reverses they suffer, I'd guess German exactions against the Belgian civilian population would be even more horrendous in TTL.

If Germany does not control the Belgian North Sea harbors, this will change the entire face of the submarine warfare.
1. Your point about the Front between Quievrain and Antwerp- I like it a lot, apart from the idea of joining with Antwerp. What I am working on is that the front would continue to the Dutch border, so that if the Germans even tried to attack Antwerp from the West, they would leave their flanks open.

2. Excellent point about submarine warfare, again I had not considered that. Which ports did the U-Boats operate from in Belgium? (I guess Ostend and Zeebrugge)
 
SteveW said:
1. Your point about the Front between Quievrain and Antwerp- I like it a lot, apart from the idea of joining with Antwerp. What I am working on is that the front would continue to the Dutch border, so that if the Germans even tried to attack Antwerp from the West, they would leave their flanks open.

OTL the Germans could not attack Antwerp from the West. That's what allowed the retreat of the Belgian army towards the Yser. Not sure which Dutch border you're talking about: Sea Flanders or North Brabant?

2. Excellent point about submarine warfare, again I had not considered that. Which ports did the U-Boats operate from in Belgium? (I guess Ostend and Zeebrugge)

Ostend and Zeebrugge indeed.
 
benedict XVII said:
OTL the Germans could not attack Antwerp from the West. That's what allowed the retreat of the Belgian army towards the Yser. Not sure which Dutch border you're talking about: Sea Flanders or North Brabant?

.

Sea Flanders.
 
I considered that but then I thought-

In TTL the Schedlt is still open, and British naval forces are nearby.
If there is a gap occupied by the Germans between (say) Zeebrugge and Antwerp, the troops there are effectively fighting a mini two-front war, and thus can be neutralised for now before being dealt with later. It depends on what I think I will do with Kitchener.
 
BUMP!

I'm going to write this up as a coherent TL in afew days so any more ideas on the future direction? I know Wendell would like to see Ludendorff launch a coup if he returns.
 
SteveW said:
BUMP!

I'm going to write this up as a coherent TL in afew days so any more ideas on the future direction? I know Wendell would like to see Ludendorff launch a coup if he returns.
It does not matter to me what happens. I was just tossing around ideas.
 
SteveW said:
I considered that but then I thought-

In TTL the Schedlt is still open, and British naval forces are nearby.
If there is a gap occupied by the Germans between (say) Zeebrugge and Antwerp, the troops there are effectively fighting a mini two-front war, and thus can be neutralised for now before being dealt with later. It depends on what I think I will do with Kitchener.

I think this is a bit unrealistic as a salient: it would be almost 100km deep. Reducing it would be a key strategic objective for the Anglo-Belgians in Antwerp, as it cuts them off with the bulk of Allied armies further south. Crossing into Dutch Sea Flanders would be terribly tempting for both parties: the Germans to cut the Scheldt supply route to the besieged in Antwerp, and the Allies to surprise the Germans in the salient. How would the Dutch government react to this breach of their neutrality? It's a pretty isolated part of the country after all...
 
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