Ludendorff captured in Lüttich

[Max Sinister]

I posted that thread somewhen before, but it got lost in a crash... here it is again...

When Germany in WW1 invaded Belgium, they had to take the fortress of Lüttich / Liege first. This was not an easy nut to crack, however; in fact, it was about the strongest fortress in Europe.

So the Germans started to attack it, but not very successful.
And then one day Ludendorff who had nothing else to do came along, thought the fortress was already taken by the Germans, went to one door, knocked, and the Belgian soldiers opened.

It could've gone both ways, but IOTL, Ludendorff had the guts to demand capitulation, and somehow the Belgians really gave in. Lüttich had fallen (only some forts continued to fight for some days), the German army could fight elsewhere, and Ludendorff was the hero of the day.

So WI the Belgians had had the backbone to arrest that overconfident German general? The German march to the west would've been hampered, since Lüttich could probably hold out for a long time, and they would miss the troops - esp. since they also couldn't win OTL. And, one of the most competent generals was lost (and not even considered good by anyone, even if released or liberated later), and would be lacking in the East. Hindenburg still would be there, but he's not considered by everyone to be the brain of the team... in fact, Ludendorff later claimed that Hindenburg had slept through the battle of Tannenberg. Thus, the Russians might throw the Germans back behind the Weichsel / Vistula, taking the area where Germany got most of grain and milk from... peace in 1915 with the Allies winning?

 

[SteveW]

I posted that thread somewhen before, but it got lost in a crash... here it is again...

When Germany in WW1 invaded Belgium, they had to take the fortress of Lüttich / Liege first. This was not an easy nut to crack, however; in fact, it was about the strongest fortress in Europe.

So the Germans started to attack it, but not very successful.
And then one day Ludendorff who had nothing else to do came along, thought the fortress was already taken by the Germans, went to one door, knocked, and the Belgian soldiers opened.

Oddly I'm actually sat in Liege right now! This is a really interesting idea, Max. I believe Liege fortress was actually a ring of 12 fortresses. So if that extra fort had held out longer, that might delay the Germans by a further week (maybe more), and give the burgeoning Resistance chance to organise and maybe blow up the bridges over the Meuse.

I suppose the eventual result for Liege will be that the Germans will have to divert more heavy weaponry to the area, flatten the fortresses, and kill General Leman in the process. And Ludendorff, imprisoned in a besieged fort, would doubtless have suffered the same fate.

 

[Max Sinister]

Nah, what Ludendorff captured wasn't one of the forts, but the main citadel. (Don't know whether it still exists today.) That's why it was so important, because after its fall, the soldiers in the other fortresses fighting didn't make much sense...

 

[SteveW]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Liège

The town actually fell a good few days before the last fortresses. Not sure about which fort Ludendorff knocked on though- but it can't be the Liege Citadel because that's not only derelict but also up a hill. Leman had to be carried out of the last fortress.

 

[Max Sinister]

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure it was the citadel. Got to check my sources, though... but let's not disgress too far from the POD. How could the war turn out?

 

[sunsurf]

And, one of the most competent generals was lost


(and not even considered good by anyone, even if released or liberated later)


Hindenburg still would be there, but he's not considered by everyone to be the brain of the team...

Anybody else see any contradictions there? How good and competent was he?

Why was he not even considered good?

 

[Andrei]

And, one of the most competent generals was lost


(and not even considered good by anyone, even if released or liberated later)


Hindenburg still would be there, but he's not considered by everyone to be the brain of the team...

Anybody else see any contradictions there? How good and competent was he?

Why was he not even considered good?

Ludendorf was one of the best German generals in WWI
However , if he had been captured like Max suggested , nobody would have considered him to be good , even if he would have been freed later.
He wouldn't have had the chance to prove his talents.

It seems that some historians credit Ludendorf for the victory over the Russians at Tannenberg , not Hindenburg. In TTL , Ludendorf is captured and Hindenburg has to lead the German troops against the Russians whithout Ludendorf's help.

Still , I doubt the Russians could have won at Tannenberg even in those circumstances because the Russian armies were poorly lead and the Russian commanders didn't like each other so they didn't cooperate.

 

[Archdevil]

Ludendorf was one of the best German generals in WWI
However , if he had been captured like Max suggested , nobody would have considered him to be good , even if he would have been freed later.
He wouldn't have had the chance to prove his talents.

It seems that some historians credit Ludendorf for the victory over the Russians at Tannenberg , not Hindenburg. In TTL , Ludendorf is captured and Hindenburg has to lead the German troops against the Russians whithout Ludendorf's help.

Still , I doubt the Russians could have won at Tannenberg even in those circumstances because the Russian armies were poorly lead and the Russian commanders didn't like each other so they didn't cooperate.

The German plan at Tannenberg was actually made by Hoffmann, a colonel who was chief of operations of the German armies. Hindenburg and Ludendorff merely signed of on his plan and the Russians were defeated.
Without Ludendorff, Hindenburg could still have used Hoffmanns plan and won the battle regardless.
After this it gets more complicated as Ludendorff was the brain of the H-L duo, while Hindenburg the symbolic old war hero brought back from retirement.
Succes on the Eastern front could be smaller, although the aforementioned Hoffmann could have filled Ludendorffs shoes as a capable chief of staff.

 

[SteveW]

but let's not disgress too far from the POD. How could the war turn out?

Well, first things first, the Belgian Resistance blow up or certainly mess up the railway bridges over the Meuse, slowing down any German reserves from getting further in Belgium. This buys the Allies another week, and although there are counter-attacks from Belgian forces elsewhere, the Germans eventually take all of Liege's fortresses on August 23rd, 1914. General Leman dies as Fort Fleron is flattened. The Germans have taken significant casualties, however, harassed by Belgian army detachments and local resistants.

On the 25rd, Von Buelow's forces reach Namur and prepare to lay siege. They can not attack as a full force as some units have had to be diverted to help besiege Mauberge, whose garrison had been reinforced whilst Liege held out [in OTL, the German 2nd Corps did have to be left behind to attack a weaker Mauberge fortress]. However, the Belgian detachments who have retreated from Liege are now being supported in the field by British and French troops, who have arrived a day previously. General French orders the 4th Middlesex to scatter into platoons and wage guerilla-style warfare on the German siegecraft and forces. Finding themselves frequently under attack from the relief effort, the Germans do not manage to take Namur until the 6th September, 1914.

Now, that's as far as I can go tonight, I need to do some more research. Does that seem on the right lines so far?

 

[benedict XVII]

Sorry, but I'm pretty sure it was the citadel. Got to check my sources, though... but let's not disgress too far from the POD. How could the war turn out?

To get things straight.

The Belgian 3rd division that was defending Liège had not had the time to organize properly the defence of the city itself nor in the interstices between the 12 forts of the ring. Realizing this, Lüddendorf led a coup de main, which led to the capture of the bridges in the heart of the city. The capture of the citadel was pure propaganda, as it had no military value whatsoever. Nevertheless, a secure crossing of the Meuse was impossible as the troops would have been under the fire of the forts. This is the reason why Luddendorf had to bring heavy artillery from Germany to reduce the forts one by one, which took another 2 weeks.

All in all, historians think that the resistance of Liège delayed the German plans by anywhere between 2 days and 2 weeks. My own personal estimate is 5-6 days. In any case, even 2 days was just enough to allow the French army massed in Lorraine to turn to meet the German advance from Belgium and avoid being being cut off from the rest of France. In that sense, the resistance of Liège truly did save France in August 1914, and it is rightfully that Liège became the first city ever to be awarded the Légion d'Honneur, by French President Poincaré.

The resistance of the Liège forts also had a huge impact on morale in the Entente. If the little Belgians could throw sand in the superb German war machinery, everything was then possible.

Another rectification: Liège was a reasonably good fortress, which had been partly modernized in the years before the war, but calling it one of the best in Europe is a vast overstatement. In Belgium only, Antwerp was much more impressive, not counting Verdun or even Maubeuge in France, Metz in German Lorraine or Premszyl in A-H.

 

[benedict XVII]

Well, first things first, the Belgian Resistance blow up or certainly mess up the railway bridges over the Meuse, slowing down any German reserves from getting further in Belgium. This buys the Allies another week, and although there are counter-attacks from Belgian forces elsewhere, the Germans eventually take all of Liege's fortresses on August 23rd, 1914. General Leman dies as Fort Fleron is flattened. The Germans have taken significant casualties, however, harassed by Belgian army detachments and local resistants.

On the 25rd, Von Buelow's forces reach Namur and prepare to lay siege. They can not attack as a full force as some units have had to be diverted to help besiege Mauberge, whose garrison had been reinforced whilst Liege held out [in OTL, the German 2nd Corps did have to be left behind to attack a weaker Mauberge fortress]. However, the Belgian detachments who have retreated from Liege are now being supported in the field by British and French troops, who have arrived a day previously. General French orders the 4th Middlesex to scatter into platoons and wage guerilla-style warfare on the German siegecraft and forces. Finding themselves frequently under attack from the relief effort, the Germans do not manage to take Namur until the 6th September, 1914.

Now, that's as far as I can go tonight, I need to do some more research. Does that seem on the right lines so far?

Some interesting ideas. A few comments:

1. The time gained by the German army would really have been what it would have taken to rebuild the bridges over the Meuse. As I said in my previous post, the crossing was impeded by the fire from the forts, until they fell, which depended mostly on the arrival of heavy German artillery. I don't know how much time the repairs would have taken, but a week seems like a lot.

2. After the fall of Liège, the remnants of the Belgian 3rd division retreated towards the Gette, according to plan, and would not have been directed towards Namur, which was manned by the 4th division

3. It is true that the additional couple of days won in Liège may have brought additional French - or even British - reinforcements to Namur. However, I doubt Namur would have held. The forts were not as modern as Liège overall, and the French performance in Charleroi OTL was not conclusive as we know. In the end, I think German heavy artillery would have taken care of Namur as well. But by that time, the Germans have lost at least a full week on their plan.

4. So the outcome may be that the famous Battle of the Marne happens further North, maybe on the Aisne, or on the Aube? Still, a key success for the Battle of the Marne was the flanking of the Germans by the Paris Army of Gallieni. Would the Germans have made the same mistake as OTL in this scenario? In fact, they should have attacked further west - through Brabant, Hainault and Flanders - in the gap left between the Belgian army massed in Limburg and making its fighting retreat towards Antwerp, and the French-British troops now massed further east than OTL. This actually makes the mistake of Von Kluck much less likely. So maybe, a prolongued resistance of Liège wouldn't have that good after all?

 

[SteveW]

Some interesting ideas. A few comments:

1. The time gained by the German army would really have been what it would have taken to rebuild the bridges over the Meuse. As I said in my previous post, the crossing was impeded by the fire from the forts, until they fell, which depended mostly on the arrival of heavy German artillery. I don't know how much time the repairs would have taken, but a week seems like a lot.

2. After the fall of Liège, the remnants of the Belgian 3rd division retreated towards the Gette, according to plan, and would not have been directed towards Namur, which was manned by the 4th division

3. It is true that the additional couple of days won in Liège may have brought additional French - or even British - reinforcements to Namur. However, I doubt Namur would have held. The forts were not as modern as Liège overall, and the French performance in Charleroi OTL was not conclusive as we know. In the end, I think German heavy artillery would have taken care of Namur as well. But by that time, the Germans have lost at least a full week on their plan.

4. So the outcome may be that the famous Battle of the Marne happens further North, maybe on the Aisne, or on the Aube? Still, a key success for the Battle of the Marne was the flanking of the Germans by the Paris Army of Gallieni. Would the Germans have made the same mistake as OTL in this scenario? In fact, they should have attacked further west - through Brabant, Hainault and Flanders - in the gap left between the Belgian army massed in Limburg and making its fighting retreat towards Antwerp, and the French-British troops now massed further east than OTL. This actually makes the mistake of Von Kluck much less likely. So maybe, a prolongued resistance of Liège wouldn't have that good after all?

Cheers, Benedict, I'll draw up another timeline at some point and add those first two points. As for the third: shall we revise down how long Namur holds out for? Say maybe 5 days instead of the 3 in OTL and the 15 I put up on my last post?

On the von Kluck point- he might well have still made a similarly reckless mistake as, from what I have read looking him up tonight, he seemed pretty aggressive, and did ignore von Buelow.

If you all keep putting in ideas, I'll bring it all together and try and sort out a timeline we can hopefully all agree on.

Regards,
Steve

 

[benedict XVII]

One week overall delay by the time Namur is taken looks reasonable to me.

What about an impetuous Von Kluck seeing the opportunity in the Brabant gap, and racing west for the Channel harbours instead of south?

 

[SteveW]

23rd Aug. 1914: Fleron falls, ending the siege of Liege. General Leman and a few dozen men die in the famous Last Stand of Fleron. Surviving Belgian troops head to Antwerp or Namur, the former taking a captured Ludendorff with them. German advance slowed by resistance destruction of several key bridges over the Meuse.

25th Aug: Siege of Namur begins. Von Buloew arrives to find a stronger garrison and French support, and to boot has had to send extra troops to help take Maubeuge. Sir John French orders the 4th Middlesex into platoons and to wage guerilla warfare.

1st Sept.: Another week behind schedule, Namur falls. Belgian troops blow up railways around Mechelen.

2nd. Sept:Ignoring von Buelow's orders, von Kluck chases Belgian troops and attempts a dash to the sea. Creating a gap of nearly 11 miles between his troops and von Buelow's, this allows the Anglo-Belgian forces to attack his left flank and he loses 12% of his troops before pulling back to Gembloux.

3rd Sept.: Concerned by news that Von Kluck seemed to be heading north to take the ports, Asquith orders two battalions of infantry plus the Royal Marines to Antwerp. Maubeuge falls to Germany.

6th Sept: Awaiting a German attack and buoyed by news of British advances, Belgian authorities order the dynamiting of all railway junctions east and south of Antwerp.

9th Sept: Backed by a British cruiser docked in the Scheldt, the Marines et al arrive in Antwerp [in OTL, Asquith sent the Marines too late]

 

[wkwillis]

You can't repair a bridge under artillary fire because you need cranes to haul stuff around. So blowing up the bridges and stuff does work. You just need some good staff work and a few hundred trucks full of dynamite, and the German army is going to have to walk to work without their horses, wagons, and trains.

 

[Wendell]

Suppose the war goes on for a couple of years, and Ludendorff strikes a deal?

 

[Max Sinister]

Er, he was captured by the Belgians TTL...

 

[SteveW]

Right, I'll try and put up more on this TL soon as there seems to be some interest. Any things anyone wants correcting or clarifying before I do this? (Any ideas of where to go now would be good too).

 

[Wendell]

Er, he was captured by the Belgians TTL...

I know that.

 

[SteveW]

Do you mean maybe use him as the Germans used Lenin?To stir up trouble? (He could be sufficiently embittered)