Longer/Shorter Lives/Careers Due to Anne Boleyn

[Kellan Sullivan]

Moore will remain persecuting heretics as Lord Chancellor in the short term.

Is he really as bad as Hilary Mantell would have us believe? I mean, I get it's fiction and all, but when we had to watch "Man for All Seasons" in high school, I found More rather unlikeable. I'll admit what was done to him was unfair and bad, but I feel that much like Katherine of Aragon he was the cause of not a bit of his own suffering. Yes, what Henry was doing was wrong, but More was essentially defying his monarch.

And I don't really trust Gareth Russell as a source because this is the same guy who said Catholics hated CoA's obstinate refusal to recognize the annulment based solely on the sermon made by Gardiner, known lick-spittle who says what Henry wants to hear in order to advance himself, after Catherine's death.

I did NOT know that about Russel. Usually I find The Anne Boleyn Files a more balanced account. I do admit that Russel does seem to put Anne on a pedestal to Katherine's detriment.

 

[ranichi17]

I did NOT know that about Russel. Usually I find The Anne Boleyn Files a more balanced account. I do admit that Russel does seem to put Anne on a pedestal to Katherine's detriment.

It's this old blog post. Specifically, this passage:

Yet a death, however noble, can never be the whole picture. Katherine's refusal to step aside, even when it became clear that her decision had lead directly to her self-absorbed husband's decision to break with Rome, was something which many devout papal Catholics in England absolutely could not forgive her for. As far as they were concerned, the horrors and humiliations, the terror and cruelty, of the last three years had been as much Katherine's fault as Henry's. It was her ego, just like Henry's, which had decided that the lives, bodies and happiness of hundreds of ordinary Catholics were of secondary importance in the battle for Katherine to keep her queenship. The Bishop of Winchester, a pious man who felt tormented by "the iniquity of heresy" now infesting England, Wales and Ireland, later declared that God had allowed Katherine to die such an agonising death precisely because her pride had inflicted so much damage on Holy Church.

A quick check tells you the sitting Bishop of Winchester at the time was dear Gardiner. He doesn't quote any other source for his assumption in the paragraph. If you can't put your biases regarding Henry's queens aside to paint a balanced picture, you're not really a good historian. I haven't read his book on Catherine Howard yet, but from what I heard it's also pretty bad.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

That's the first time that I've heard that even the Catholics disliked Katherine. I am aware that there were those who did - usually those whose religion played second fiddle to their ambition (i.e. Norfolk, who was willing to throw not one but two nieces under the bus if it meant he could keep his head attached) - but my general understanding of most bios of both Henry/Katherine/Anne is that the public opinion was that Katherine was a "saint" and Anne the homewrecking slut.

Two events in Anne's life (IMO) illustrate this. Her coronation, where nobody was quite sure what to make of it (whether you were Protestant or Catholic), and her execution/burial, where no one tried a Fisher/More stunt defending her honour. Not even Cranmer. And where her body is shoved in an arrow chest. Not even a decent coffin. Could've just as well mounted her head on a spike on London Bridge (did they do that with Brereton and co?) like most traitors.

Now, admittedly, Katherine was never found guilty of treason, which made her position slightly more defensible (how do you defend someone from a treason charge without looking like a traitor yourself?). Also, Katherine's drama played out over several years. Anne's fall was quick - just over two weeks (from her arrest on May Day to her execution on the 19th) - and determined (i.e. the men were tried before she was, and the Calais headsman sent for before the verdict announced). Not to mention that the king's position in 1536 was far more powerful/absolute than what it was in the 1520s.

 

[Jonathan]

Elizabeth Barton, the Nun of Kent, while working as a servant she had visions, which led to her execution due to her prophecies against the marriage of King Henry VIII of England to Anne Boleyn.

George's wife, Jane Boleyn, Viscountess Rochford (née Parker) was able to use the downfall of Anne to throw George into the spot light.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Elizabeth Barton, the Nun of Kent, while working as a servant she had visions, which led to her execution due to her prophecies against the marriage of King Henry VIII of England to Anne Boleyn.

George's wife, Jane Boleyn, Viscountess Rochford (née Parker) was able to use the downfall of Anne to throw George into the spot light.

You don't think the nun of Kent will have some likewise suspect prophecy? IIRC, she said that if the king continued on "this course" he would be dead within x time. Said "course" is sufficiently vague that it could be something like the closure of minor religious houses (which AFAIK was begun under Wolsey already) instead of Henry wanting to make a new marriage.

If Anne were to only become countess of Northumberland, who do you think George would marry in this scenario? As well as Jane Parker?

 

[FalconHonour]

You don't think the nun of Kent will have some likewise suspect prophecy? IIRC, she said that if the king continued on "this course" he would be dead within x time. Said "course" is sufficiently vague that it could be something like the closure of minor religious houses (which AFAIK was begun under Wolsey already) instead of Henry wanting to make a new marriage.

If Anne were to only become countess of Northumberland, who do you think George would marry in this scenario? As well as Jane Parker?

One of my stories had Anne as Countess of Northumberland and Jane Seymour as Lady Rochford... I couldn't resist the irony.

 

[isabella]

You don't think the nun of Kent will have some likewise suspect prophecy? IIRC, she said that if the king continued on "this course" he would be dead within x time. Said "course" is sufficiently vague that it could be something like the closure of minor religious houses (which AFAIK was begun under Wolsey already) instead of Henry wanting to make a new marriage.

If Anne were to only become countess of Northumberland, who do you think George would marry in this scenario? As well as Jane Parker?

An earldom for Thomas Boleyn and a wedding to Jane Parker (or another heiress like her) for George are still possible without Anne as Queen...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

One of my stories had Anne as Countess of Northumberland and Jane Seymour as Lady Rochford... I couldn't resist the irony.

I could actually see such a thing happening - especially given that the Seymours and Boleyns are related to start with and cousin marriages weren't unheard of. Although my personal preference is Jane marrying Will Dormer as she was originally slated to do. Would be funny if they have a daughter who still catches the duke of Feria's eye like Dormer's daughter did OTL (Edward Seymour's girls were quite intelligent, and Jane wouldn't be the first "plain" woman to produce an attractive daughter).

An earldom for Thomas Boleyn and a wedding to Jane Parker (or another heiress like her) for George are still possible without Anne as Queen...

So the George-Jane match is still a-go then? Cool. Simplifies matters somewhat, although I always understood it that Anne's favour with Henry was what secured the match. But then I looked and saw Jane's dad was only a baron, so marriage "up" to the son of a new (albeit rather new money) earl is not unthinkable.

 

[mcdnab]

Thomas was already a respected courtier before his daughter's caught the King's eye and his wife had been lady in waiting to both Elizabeth of York and Catherine of Aragon - she was of course a Howard.
The marriage of Jane and George was not unusual - George was highly regarded at this period had already been knighted and was already someone in the King's group of friends etc - Thomas got his Viscountcy the year the King first began courting Anne - but even without an Anne/Henry scenario it isn't unlikely that his claims to the Earldom of Wiltshire and Ormond would be recognised given his and his son's prominence at court. Jane Parker's family likewise were well-respected and well place - Jane was a member of Catherine of Aragon's household and the match is not unlikely

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Out of curiosity, what about the Lady Elizabeth's tutors? Going by Lizzie's later aptitude, Anne (and Elizabeth's succeeding guardians, Anna of Kleve and Kathryn Parr) put her under the tutelage of some decent professors. Whether this was out of desire on Anne's part to upstage Mary's education that Katherine of Aragon had given (not impossible), or because Anne was a patron of learning in her own right, I have no idea.

What I do wonder is if Henry and Katherine had had a son, would Mary have been as well educated as she was OTL? And even if she had been, would Mary have been a lightning strike in the world of female education? For instance, Henry's fourth wife, Anna of Kleve, had very little in the way of education, having come, as @desmirelle said once, from a court where the idea of a sexy Saturday night was embroidering altar cloths. By contrast, FWIG her rival, Kristina of Denmark, had a very thorough education under first Margarethe of Austria and then the Queen of Hungary.

 

[desmirelle]

Since the depression meds added to my current meds has been dropped {as soon as I got @CalBear's well-deserved warning} and I am no longer intermittently psychotic, I'll reply to the mention. (Seriously, I've had three 'assistance' anti-depressants to help with the one that isn't going as well as hoped. The last two made me nuttier than Archie Bunker and nowhere near funny; the first one - didn't make me crazy, but I had auditory hallucinations with it. Depression sucks.)

If Mary is born in 1516 as OTL, and Katherine has a male child in 1518, both children will receive basically the same educational, with gender differences that existed at the time (Mary doesn't learn jousting or wrestling, Potter {the boy who lived!} won't learn needlepoint or riding sidesaddle). If we wait for Anne's arrival, we'll get the same outcome with Percy (he was betrothed at the time, Wolsey was correct & there was a negotiation under between the Boleyns and the Butlers with regard to Anne.) Wolsey was correct - at the time - to throw that baby under the bus; hindsight tells us he shoulda, coulda, woulda been better off letting it go through, but H8 had not at the time of the Percy/Boleyn debacle any interest in the younger Boleyn daughter.

And, to Kellan's query about the nannies/tutors? They're going to be raised Roman Catholic. Henry now had no excuse for annulling the marriage with Katherine, no break with Rome.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Since the depression meds added to my current meds has been dropped {as soon as I got @CalBear's well-deserved warning} and I am no longer intermittently psychotic, I'll reply to the mention. (Seriously, I've had three 'assistance' anti-depressants to help with the one that isn't going as well as hoped. The last two made me nuttier than Archie Bunker and nowhere near funny; the first one - didn't make me crazy, but I had auditory hallucinations with it. Depression sucks.)

Depression does suck. I hope that you can find a decent equilibrium. We (read: I'm speaking for myself) miss you on the board.

Potter {the boy who lived!}

Lol

And, to Kellan's query about the nannies/tutors? They're going to be raised Roman Catholic

So presumably clerics or quasi-clerics will be in charge of their education then?

 

[desmirelle]

Juan Luis Vives was a Spanish humanist that Katherine employed for (at least) advice is how to raise the royal children (Okay, it just the one OTL). I see her doing that here, with reinforcements from the likes of Thomas More (who educated his children the same, regardless of gender). I'm not saying More would be their tutor, just that H8 would consult him on the matter.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Juan Luis Vives was a Spanish humanist that Katherine employed for (at least) advice is how to raise the royal children (Okay, it just the one OTL). I see her doing that here, with reinforcements from the likes of Thomas More (who educated his children the same, regardless of gender). I'm not saying More would be their tutor, just that H8 would consult him on the matter.

Didn't Henry disagree on educating girls? Or was that just made up for dramatic effect in The Tudors?

 

[desmirelle]

Made up shit, like Henry's only sister MARGARET marrying the King of Portugal, seducing Brandon on the sea voyage over there and then smothering her husband with a pillow. Like Anne Boleyn taking her top off in the woods when anyone else on the hunt/ride could find them easily and Boom! whatever people said about her being a common stewed whore is true! I had to stop watching, it was so bad. (Not the acting, the writing.)

Henry went for Vives OTL, there's no reason not to use him for both children. Potter's going to be his favorite (because he's the boy who lived), but Mary's also going to be Daddy's girl (she was first). Henry himself was well educated and so was Katherine. Both parents were into education.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Made up shit, like Henry's only sister MARGARET marrying the King of Portugal, seducing Brandon on the sea voyage over there and then smothering her husband with a pillow. Like Anne Boleyn taking her top off in the woods when anyone else on the hunt/ride could find them easily and Boom! whatever people said about her being a common stewed whore is true! I had to stop watching, it was so bad. (Not the acting, the writing.)

Henry went for Vives OTL, there's no reason not to use him for both children. Potter's going to be his favorite (because he's the boy who lived), but Mary's also going to be Daddy's girl (she was first). Henry himself was well educated and so was Katherine. Both parents were into education.

Yeah I only watched it for Natalie Dormer once they killed her off it was hasta la vista. Me being a Henry Cavill fan wasn't enough to let me watch the last 2 seasons.

By the time of Potter's own kids (assuming he's born 1518 or 1519, that'd probably be around mid-late 1530s, early 1540s) come along, would More (assuming he doesn't die from a similar crisis of conscience as OTL - possible, even without Henry breaking with Rome) be given charge of the education of the new generation? Or would it be given into the hands of other men (perhaps a crypto-Protestant)? Or would it be impossible to say?

Likewise, assuming no break with Rome, what sort of trajectory would the English Catholic Church follow until say the 1530s (Katherine of Aragon's likely death - I don't really see her living much longer than OTL given the state of medicine in the 16e century) or 1540s (Henry VIII's death).

 

[desmirelle]

Katherine might live longer with no "Anne Boleyn" to stress her out {Anne will probably live longer, too}. It would also affect H8's health because he didn't become a ton of non-fun until Jane died. He would probably live longer and remarry another foreign princess when Katherine does die. With a healthy son in hand, he's no longer hysterical about getting one (although a spare would be nice).

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Katherine might live longer with no "Anne Boleyn" to stress her out {Anne will probably live longer, too}. It would also affect H8's health because he didn't become a ton of non-fun until Jane died. He would probably live longer and remarry another foreign princess when Katherine does die. With a healthy son in hand, he's no longer hysterical about getting one (although a spare would be nice).

I'm not sure about Katherine living MUCH longer. I mean heart cancer + 16th century medicine doesn't bode well for her. @BlueFlowwer @FalconHonour @Cate13

Is Jane winding up as a nun totally ASB? I mean, I imagine that after her dad decided to bone his daughter-in-law, and the ensuing scandal, if Jane wasn't married by then, I doubt she WOULD be.
Which also begs the question of whether the Seymours (or even Henry FitzRoy) would climb as high as they did with a sister who isn't mother of the heir/Potter running around.