Longer/Shorter Lives/Careers Due to Anne Boleyn

[Kellan Sullivan]

This was something I was trying to figure out earlier. Anne Boleyn's rise saw more than a few people crushed under her chariot wheels. Her fall likewise saw new people gaining power (the Seymours, for instance).

Who were people whose lives/careers would have been either longer/different were it not for the tsunami that was Henry VIII desire to wed Anne?

Thomas Cranmer is one. He might still end up as archbishop of Canterbury, but later rather than sooner IMHO. His preferment AIUI was because he was the Boleyn family chaplain.
Wolsey, More, Fisher are others who might see their lives prolonged by the scandal of Christendom never becoming Henry's heart's desire.

PS: the POD here is Ms Boleyn becoming countess of Northumberland or Katherine of Aragon's last pregnancy is male (i.e. between 1518 and 1522).

@ranichi17 @desmirelle @FalconHonour @AnnaRegina1507 @mcdnab @isabella @VVD0D95

 

[BlueFlowwer]

Thomas More is likely the most prominent one.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Thomas More is likely the most prominent one.

I also thought so.

If Cranmer stays as the Boleyn family chaplain, probably moving on to the Percy household when the time comes (he seems to have been close to Anne FWIG), who would likely be candidate for archbishop of Canterbury in his stead? IIRC he [Cranmer] was the last papally appointed archbishop (excluding Reginald Pole).

William Warham, archbishop of Canterbury died in 1532 (at the grand old age of ~82yo). Might St. John Fisher (without a reason to draw Henry's ire) be appointed as his successor in Canterbury? Perhaps it's the occasion for Fisher's promotion to the cardinalacy?

 

[Fabius Maximus]

William Warham, archbishop of Canterbury died in 1532 (at the grand old age of ~82yo). Might St. John Fisher (without a reason to draw Henry's ire) be appointed as his successor in Canterbury? Perhaps it's the occasion for Fisher's promotion to the cardinalacy?

I was going to suggest that Fisher might be passed over in favour of the head of a more important diocese, although looking at Wikipedia it seems that it was his choice to stay in Rochester and he was a prominent intellectual (Chancellor of Cambridge University, for example), so perhaps he would be chosen after all.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

I was going to suggest that Fisher might be passed over in favour of the head of a more important diocese, although looking at Wikipedia it seems that it was his choice to stay in Rochester and he was a prominent intellectual (Chancellor of Cambridge University, for example), so perhaps he would be chosen after all.

Cool.
Do you think Wolsey would die in office? Or would he still be bypassed by younger men?

 

[The Bashful Bookworm]

Cool.
Do you think Wolsey would die in office? Or would he still be bypassed by younger men?

Wolsey's position at the Tudor court was also integrated in his ability to keep Henry happy. He made no shortage of enemies amongst the nobles at court and in Parliament, there's no denying that. Say Catherine of Aragon's last pregnancy did produce the cherished son and heir. Henry could very well be inclined to keep Wolsey in his pocket, so dying in office could be a possibility, though I can't see Thomas More not being held in equal regard, if not more so, given his and Henry's longstanding friendship - especially if More lived to become the Prince of Wales' tutor.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

More lived to become the Prince of Wales' tutor.

Not sure that would be a good thing in the long run, but I could be wrong

 

[FalconHonour]

Wolsey's position at the Tudor court was also integrated in his ability to keep Henry happy. He made no shortage of enemies amongst the nobles at court and in Parliament, there's no denying that. Say Catherine of Aragon's last pregnancy did produce the cherished son and heir. Henry could very well be inclined to keep Wolsey in his pocket, so dying in office could be a possibility, though I can't see Thomas More not being held in equal regard, if not more so, given his and Henry's longstanding friendship - especially if More lived to become the Prince of Wales' tutor.

But if the POD is Anne marrying Henry Percy in 1523 instead of Katherine delivering a boy in 1518, then Wolsey is still likely to fall eventually, tbh. Wolsey was a dedicated servant of Henry's, but he was also exceedingly vainglorious and ambitious for himself too. Eventually, I believe Henry would have tired of Wolsey, one way or another. He was too full of himself for their egos not to clash eventually. The Cardinal might not have fallen so far or so fast without Anne whispering poison in Henry's ear, but I'm sure he would have fallen. That is in fact, something I will be mentioning in 'Queen is Dead!'

More would have kept his head, though. What really killed him was his refusal to sign the Oath. If Henry had had a son, or had managed to free himself of his marriage to Katherine in a way that the Papacy accepted - so avoided the need for a new Church - More wouldn't have had to stand on his conscience above his loyalty and he would have lived.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

But if the POD is Anne marrying Henry Percy in 1523 instead of Katherine delivering a boy in 1518

I figured that Wolsey's days in office will be numbered as soon as Henry gives him an assignment he can't complete - which was OTL the beginning of the end for him when he had to try get an annulment. However, Wolsey's mistake (IMO) was that he realized too late in the day that Henry wanted him gone, and basically kept pressing/hoping for Henry to change his mind after his resignation was demanded. When he gave up Hampton Court and Whitehall it was too little too late.

 

[isabella]

But if the POD is Anne marrying Henry Percy in 1523 instead of Katherine delivering a boy in 1518, then Wolsey is still likely to fall eventually, tbh. Wolsey was a dedicated servant of Henry's, but he was also exceedingly vainglorious and ambitious for himself too. Eventually, I believe Henry would have tired of Wolsey, one way or another. He was too full of himself for their egos not to clash eventually. The Cardinal might not have fallen so far or so fast without Anne whispering poison in Henry's ear, but I'm sure he would have fallen. That is in fact, something I will be mentioning in 'Queen is Dead!'

More would have kept his head, though. What really killed him was his refusal to sign the Oath. If Henry had had a son, or had managed to free himself of his marriage to Katherine in a way that the Papacy accepted - so avoided the need for a new Church - More wouldn't have had to stand on his conscience above his loyalty and he would have lived.

Well if Katherine had a living son in 1518 Wolsey’s fall in a couple of years will be pretty inevitable...
Katherine also was a great enemy of Wolsey (who supported a French alliance against Katherine’s own family)...
The young Henry/Edward/Arthur’s birth and survival will likely put back Katherine in power and the prince of Wales will be likely engaged to an Habsburg girl...
Sure Madeleine of France (born in 1520) and Margaret of France (born 1523) will be likely offered but the winner will be most likely one of Katherine’s great nieces Dorothea of Denmark (born 1520), Christina of Denmark (born 1521) or Maria of Portugal (born 1521). That unless Henry is willing to wait for a more prestigious bride like Maria of Spain (born 1528), Elisabeth of Austria (born 1526) or Anna of Austria (born 1528). Another possible Habsburg-proxy is Isabella of Poland (born 1519) and at least Ferdinand, if not Charles himself, would have very good reasons for promoting her for the prince of Wales...

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

So Wolsey is still doomed then? Or at least due to be swept aside eventually.

Katherine's position is likely to be strengthened by the birth of a son. I suspect that she'll start making in-roads to Henry to rid himself of the cardinal? Maybe urging Henry to let Wolsey have a permanent post as ambassador to the Vatican...?

 

[The Bashful Bookworm]

This might seem like a silly question, but didn’t Wolsey also have a rivalry with Archbishop Warham IOTL? Might that be diluted somewhat ITTL, or would they still be locking horns?

 

[Deleted member 96349]

Anne helped promote fellow reformers, according to Eric W. Ives:

(...)Thus far it might appear that Anne was merely promoting her own advantage, but we must also note that she was a direct supporter of positive religious reform. In the first place, she set out, both before but particularly after becoming queen, to promote the careers of promising reformers, most notably by recruiting young Cambridge academics to be her chaplains and her agents. She also exploited her influence with Henry, her prestige as queen and her direct stock of patronage to advance reformers to places of importance in the church. To say nothing of lesser positions, seven of the ten episcopal sees filled between the break with Rome and her own death were given to reformers who appear to have been her clients

Anne Boleyn and the «Entente Évangélique»

Matthew Parker: Anne's chaplain. Anne's patronage led to him being appointed dean of the Collegiate Church of Stoke-by-Clare in 1535. After her death he went on to serve Henry VIII, Edward VI, and Elizabeth I. He was appointed Archbishop of Canterbury in 1559, a role he felt he was not fit enough for, but he accepted because of Anne Boleyn “Yea, if I had not been so much bound to the mother, I would not so soon have granted to serve the daughter in this place…”

Nicholas Bourbon: Poet and tutor, he was a french reformer under Anne's employ and protection (some sources say she helped get him released from prison), and was the tutor to her nephew Henry Carey (as well as Henry Dudley, Henry Norris (the younger), and Thomas or Henry Harvey). In 1536 he returned to France, and was later on the tutor of Jeanne d'Albret.

William Latymer: Anne's chaplain. He later on went to serve Elizabeth I as a clerk of the closet, and wrote a chronicle about Anne Boleyn.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

A Warham-Wolsey escalating feud could be interesting. I could see Warham and the anti-Wolsey faction (perhaps spear-headed by Katherine) going after the cardinal.

(In an aside. Anne's anti-Wolsey stance seems to have stemmed partly from him blocking her marriage to Percy, and partially because Wolsey couldn't get an annulment for Henry. If she becomes countess of Northumberland (perhaps in spite of Wolsey), would she still be anti-Wolsey?)

 

[isabella]

A Warham-Wolsey escalating feud could be interesting. I could see Warham and the anti-Wolsey faction (perhaps spear-headed by Katherine) going after the cardinal.

(In an aside. Anne's anti-Wolsey stance seems to have stemmed partly from him blocking her marriage to Percy, and partially because Wolsey couldn't get an annulment for Henry. If she becomes countess of Northumberland (perhaps in spite of Wolsey), would she still be anti-Wolsey?)

She maybe not, but her father and uncle were likely already enemies of Wolsey

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

She maybe not, but her father and uncle were likely already enemies of Wolsey

So likely "nothing personal, just business"?

@AnnaRegina1507: I imagine in a scenario where Anne doesn't become queen, Parker and Latymer (and several other reform-minded clerics) would not make it to their OTL posts. IDK about you, but I think to call Anne a Protestant/Evangelical is about as anachronistic as to call her a "feminist" or the like.

I did like what one author wrote of her (think it may have been Gareth Russel(?)):

We have not yet troubled to look properly at her charities, her friendships and the tidal wave of compliments that were hers in the days before notoriety drowned her. We ignore her controversial attendance at a Requiem Mass for the butchered Cardinal Fisher, her locking of herself in her oratory and bursting into tears at the news of Katherine of Aragon’s death or the commendable image of a woman horrified, repulsed and disgusted by the burning to death of heretics. And that, in the 16th century, is something surely to her credit, no matter how much we attempt to contextualise it. She was, without doubt, a mass of contradictions – much good, some bad. But that, in the end, is something we must allow to her, for it is the most quintessential fundamental of what it means to be human, to be alive, and these contradictions, the subtleties and nuances, are important - more than important, in fact - for they remind us that this extraordinary woman really lived and that this repellently fascinating story, really, really happened.

I didn't know about the tears at KoA's death (I've always just heard the oft-repeated tale that when Anne received the news she remarked "now I am truly queen" and then acted as if it troubled her not at all). Nor about the attendance of Fisher's funeral mass.

 

[ranichi17]

Sorry I've been unofficially fishing for a while now.

Would Cromwell still rise? He did serve under Wolsey's household for a while, but his rise came from the Boleyn patronage so what happens to him?

And I don't really trust Gareth Russell as a source because this is the same guy who said Catholics hated CoA's obstinate refusal to recognize the annulment based solely on the sermon made by Gardiner, known lick-spittle who says what Henry wants to hear in order to advance himself, after Catherine's death.

 

[H.Flashman(VC)]

Would Cromwell still rise? He did serve under Wolsey's household for a while, but his rise came from the Boleyn patronage so what happens to him?

He will come to the notice of the king no matter of his patron because of his exceptional financial talent.

 

[isabella]

He will come to the notice of the king no matter of his patron because of his exceptional financial talent.

Yes. Cromwell will most likely rise high after the inevitable fall of Wolsey (Thomas More will be Wolsey’s successor but will likely need Cromwell’s help and that will put the highly talented Cromwell on the path for becoming his eventual successor unless his religious believes put him in troubles...

 

[mcdnab]

Interesting of course the chance of Anne becoming Countess of Northumberland is slight - Percy was already betrothed to his OTL wife and his father was livid at the time - he thought the daughter of a knight (despite one in Royal favour) wasn't good enough, and of course Wolsey hoped to resolve the Boleyn rift over the Earldom of Ormond by marrying Anne to her Butler cousin. (Some of course believe the fury was because Henry had already taken a fancy to her but that is of course debatable).

As to the rest - Wolsey and Henry's relationship was good until almost the very last moment, for many the fall out wasn't just because he couldn't deliver the annulment but that Henry himself was taking more of an active interest in government and that Wolsey's luck had run out (he'd alienated many of those who might have helped save him) so his fall is going to happen at some point whether it ends in complete disgrace or polite retirement is the only discussion to be had.
Cromwell might take longer to achieve greatness and might end up far to closely tied to Wolsey to prosper after his master's fall with no great matter to offer the King advice.
Cranmer probably remains a minor figure - without the divorce he doesn't come to prominence - minor diplomatic missions etc.
Moore will remain persecuting heretics as Lord Chancellor in the short term.