List of Alternate Monarchs and Aristocratic Lineage II

[kasumigenx]

Continuation

Valdemar II of Denmark m. Margaret Dagmar of Bohemia(a) Marie of France(b)

1a. Valdemar the Young b. 1209 m. Mary of England[1]

2b. Eric IV of Denmark b. 1216

3b. Sophia of Denmark b. 1217

4b. Abel, King of Denmark b. 1218

5b. Christopher I of Denmark b. 1219

1. Daughter of Maria of Brabant and Henry III of England.

Note: I was thinking of Valdemar II marrying his niece from Ingeborg and William III but I don't think it is possible, so I chose Marie of France instead.

Two Queen Dagmars of Denmark
Valdemar II of Denmark m. Margaret Dagmar of Bohemia(a) Margaret Dagmar of Scotland[1] (b)

1a. Valdemar III b. 1209 m. Mary of England[2]
1a1a. Margaret(formerly Dagmar/Malgorzata in Polish) the Cursed b. 1228 m. Boleslaw V of Poland[3]

2b. Eric IV of Denmark b. 1216

3b. Dagmar of Denmark b. 1217

4b. Robert I, King of Denmark b. 1218

5b. Christopher I of Denmark b. 1219

1. IOTL she is made a hostage to John I of England
2. Daughter of Maria of Brabant and Henry III of England.
3. She is cursed due to her having many children with her husband which caused the downfall of the Greater Poland Piast line.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

POD - Edward of Middleham lives and miraculously the Yorkist cause endures in Ireland.

King Edward I of Ireland, King-Claimant of England (1476-1504) m. Isabella of Brittany (1478-1529), had issue

1. King Richard I of Ireland, King-Claimant of England (1494-1551) m. Marguerite of Angouleme (1492-1549), had issue​

1. King Edward II of Ireland, King-Claimant of England (1521-1576)​

2. Prince Richard of Ireland (1522-1579)​

3. Princess Margaret of Ireland (1525-1599)​

4. Princess Isabel of Ireland (1528-1559)​

5. Prince John of Ireland (1532-1587)​

2. Prince Edmund, Duke of York and Connaught (1496-1549) m. Lady Jane Angus (1498-1557), had issue​

1. Edmund, Duke of York and Connaught (1515-1569)​

2. Edward of Connaught (1517-1569)​

3. Lady Jane of Connaught (1520-1576)​

4. Lady Isabel of Connaught (1522-1587)​

I like this idea, although perhaps a marriage to an Irish heiress (one of the St. Leger coheiresses of the earl of Ormond- cousins of Anne Boleyn) or a Talbot match for Edmund?

 

[RedKing]

I like this idea, although perhaps a marriage to an Irish heiress (one of the St. Leger coheiresses of the earl of Ormond- cousins of Anne Boleyn) or a Talbot match for Edmund?

Possibly, I was thinking that the Yorkists would want to get as many allies as possible and so had Edmund marry Jane as a Scottish proxy.

 

[Reyne]

The lineage of Aragorn II, King of the Reunited Kingdom of Arnor and Gondor and his wife, Arwen Undómiel.

Elessar I, High King of the Dúnedain and Lord of the Westlands, married Arwen Undómiel, Lady of Rivendell. They had the following issue:

1. Princess Altariel of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 3 - d. FA 281) married Alphros, Prince of Dol Amroth and later remarried to Barahad, Warden of the Weathertop.
2. Princess Luthien of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 5 - d. FA 278) married Borlong, Lord of Lossarnach.
3. Princess Eleniel of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 9 - d. FA 294) married Elboron, Prince of Ithilien and Steward of Gondor.
4. Princess Andúnië of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 11 - d. FA 220) married Arvelech, Lord-Admiral of Lond Daer and later remarried to Aldamir, Lord of the Angle.
5. Prince Eldarion of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 14 - d. FA 301) married Zimraphel, Princess of Bellakar.

 

[CalBear]

The lineage of Aragorn II, King of the Reunited Kingdom of Arnor and Gondor and his wife, Arwen Undómiel.

Elessar I, High King of the Dúnedain and Lord of the Westlands, married Arwen Undómiel, Lady of Rivendell. They had the following issue:

1. Princess Altariel of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 3 - d. FA 281) married Alphros, Prince of Dol Amroth and later remarried to Barahad, Warden of the Weathertop.
2. Princess Luthien of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 5 - d. FA 278) married Borlong, Lord of Lossarnach.
3. Princess Eleniel of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 9 - d. FA 294) married Elboron, Prince of Ithilien and Steward of Gondor.
4. Princess Andúnië of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 11 - d. FA 220) married Arvelech, Lord-Admiral of Lond Daer and later remarried to Aldamir, Lord of the Angle.
5. Prince Eldarion of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 14 - d. FA 301) married Zimraphel, Princess of Bellakar.

Please keep fictional content in the proper fictional threads.

 

[Cate13]

The lineage of Aragorn II, King of the Reunited Kingdom of Arnor and Gondor and his wife, Arwen Undómiel.

Currently there’s isn’t a LOTR family tree thread. (There is a asoiaf one, though) but I think I generic fiction one could be fun. A place to discuss LOTR, Cosmere, Wheel of Time, or other such family trees.

 

[Lalli]

Currently there’s isn’t a LOTR family tree thread. (There is a asoiaf one, though) but I think I generic fiction one could be fun. A place to discuss LOTR, Cosmere, Wheel of Time, or other such family trees.

I think that it would be better to create royal lineages for fictional worlds thread so we can keep things clear.

 

[RedKing]

Update the Edward of Middleham becomes King of Ireland tree, open to suggestions:

King Edward I of Ireland, King-Claimant of England (1476-1504) m. Lady Margaret FitzGerald (1473-1542) [1], had issue

1. King Richard I of Ireland, King-Claimant of England (1493-1549) m. Marguerite of Angouleme (1492-1549), had issue​

1. King Edward II of Ireland, King-Claimant of England (1514-1572) m. Anne of Cleves (1515-1557), had issue​

1. Princess Anne of Ireland (1537-1589)​

2. Princess Margaret of Ireland (1538-1591)​

3. King Richard II of Ireland (1540-1598)​

4. King Gerald I of Ireland (1541-1600)​

5. Prince Edmund of Ireland (1543-1469)​

2. Princess Margaret of Ireland (1516-1539) m. William, Duke of Julich-Cleves-Burg (1516-1592), had issue​

3. Prince Richard, Duke of Ulster (1519-1574)​

4. Prince Francis of Ireland, Archbishop of Dublin (1521-1567)​

5. Princess Elizabeth of Ireland (1523-1567)​

2. Prince Edward of Ireland, Duke of York and Connaught (1496-1551) m. Lady Ellis FitzGerald (1494-1559), had issue​

1. Edmund, Duke of York and Connaught (1511-1579) m.​

2. Richard of Connaught (1513-1579) m.​

3. John of Connaught (1515-1555) m.​

4. Lady Ellis of Connaught (1517-1567) m.​

5. Lady Margaret of Connaught (1519-1581) m. Owen MacCarthy Reagh (1520-1594), Prince of Carbery​

6. Lady Anne of Connaught (1522-1587) m.​

3. Princess Anne of Ireland (1499-1519) m. Earl Manus of Sligo (1499-1564) [2], had issue​

1. Earl Hugh of Sligo (1514-1569)​

2. Sir Edward O'Donnell (1516-1572)​

3. Lady Anne O'Donnell (1518-1571)​

---

[1] Daughter of the Earl of Kildare, who is one of the key causes in the formation of the Kingdom of Ireland
[2] Otl, Chief of the O'Donnells, in otl he asked to be made the Earl of Sligo, here King Richard does so.

 

[AztecXVII]

Miguel de la Paz marries Claude, Duchess of Brittany.

Isabel, Princess of Asturias m. Manuel l of Portugal

1. Miguel I 'de la Paz' of Portugal and Spain m. Claude, Duchess of Brittany

a. Isabel of Portugal​

b. Stillborn daughter​

c. Juan, Prince of Asturias​

d. Maria of Portugal​

e. Miscarriage​

f. Miscarriage​

g. Anna of Portugal​

h. Miguel II of Portugal (twin of Francis)​

i. Francis II, Duke of Brittany (twin of Miguel)​

j. Manuel of Portugal, Duke of Beja​

​

​

2. Ferdinand IV, King of Naples and Sicily m. Isabella of Austria

a. Ferdinand V of Naples and Sicily​

b. Maria of Naples​

c. Joanna of Naples​

d. Alfonso III of Naples and Sicily​

e. Philip, Duke of Sora​

​

 

[Cate13]

I think that it would be better to create royal lineages for fictional worlds thread so we can keep things clear.

I'm confused, how is that different from what I suggested?

 

[Nuraghe]

here is my personal idea on the Ottonian dynasty that does not die out, starting with a Pod in 983 ( ensuring that Otto II recovers from malaria and can resolve the Crescenzi and Tivoli affair for the moment, and then concentrate on the Slavs, before trying again against the Saracens )

Otto II ( born 955 - died 998 in San Pietro Basilica ) married in 972 to Theopanu Scleraina ( born 960 - died 1005 in Cologne ) with children

Adelaide ( b. 974 ) as Otl

Sofia ( b. 975 ) as Otl

Emma ( b. 977 ) Duchess of Spoleto and Benevento

Matilda ( b. 979 ) Duchess of Upper Lorraine from 994

Otto III ( b. 980 ) Duke of Saxony from birth, co - king of the East Franks from 983, co - king of the Italics from 984, recognized by the Pope Gregory V as Caesar of the Romans in 994 ( minor imperial title, which he kept during his father's reign ) elected King of Burgundy in 1010 upon the death of Rudolf III ( throne to which he was already destined due to political maneuvers of his grandmother Adelaide of Burgundy, who had obtained an agreement for her possible succession to the throne as early as 993 ) he married Zoe Porfirogenita ( born in 978 ) in 1000 in Rome, with whom he had 6 children, equally divided between boys and girls

Henry ( b. 982 – d. 993 )

John ( b. 983 ) became Duke of Swabia from 1003, succeeding Hermann II, married to a a daughter of Boleslaw I Duke of Bohemia, with whom he had two children



although personally I would also have a scenario of an earlier establishment of the Ottonians as Roman emperors, particularly with Henry the Fowler living and undertaking his Italian campaign of 936

 

[kasumigenx]

Posthumous son of William the Lionheart

Richard I of England d. 1199 m. Berengaria of Navarre

1a. William XI of Aquitaine, later William I of Navarre b. 1200 m. Margaret of Flanders

1a1a. Richard I of Navarre b. 1217 m. Eleanor of Provence

--further issue



Eleanor of Brittany[1] m. Louis VIII(a)

1a. Eleanor b. 1203 m. Ferdinand III of Castile

2a. Philip b. 1205 d. 1216 b. Alix of Donzy

3a. Geoffrey b. 1209 d. 1220

4a. Louis XII b. 1214 m. Margaret of Provence

5a. Robert, Count of Artois b. 1216

6a. Charles, Count of Anjou, Maine, and Touraine b. 1220 m. Beatrice of Burgundy[1]

7a. Isabella of France b. 1222



Arthur of Brittany d. 1204 m. Constance of Navarre(a)

Constance II of Brittany b. 1203 m. John of Dreux



John I of England m. Maria of Brabant

1a. Henry III of England b. 1207 m. Elizabeth of Swabia

2a. Richard, Count of Cornwall b. 1209

3a. Joan of England b. 1210

4a. Mary of England b. 1214

5a. Eleanor of England b. 1215

1. With Eleanor of Brittany married to Prince Louis with both Normandy and Anjou, Maine, and Touraine as her dowry, Arthur would wait until he had an issue to fight King John and the birth of a Posthumous issue of Richard the Lionheart prevents the marriage with Isabella of Angouleme with King John, he pursues Maria of Brabant instead.

 

[Ogrebear]

The lineage of Aragorn II, King of the Reunited Kingdom of Arnor and Gondor and his wife, Arwen Undómiel.

Elessar I, High King of the Dúnedain and Lord of the Westlands, married Arwen Undómiel, Lady of Rivendell. They had the following issue:

1. Princess Altariel of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 3 - d. FA 281) married Alphros, Prince of Dol Amroth and later remarried to Barahad, Warden of the Weathertop.
2. Princess Luthien of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 5 - d. FA 278) married Borlong, Lord of Lossarnach.
3. Princess Eleniel of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 9 - d. FA 294) married Elboron, Prince of Ithilien and Steward of Gondor.
4. Princess Andúnië of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 11 - d. FA 220) married Arvelech, Lord-Admiral of Lond Daer and later remarried to Aldamir, Lord of the Angle.
5. Prince Eldarion of Arnor and Gondor (b. FA 14 - d. FA 301) married Zimraphel, Princess of Bellakar.

I guess you can’t post fictional lines here then.

Did you start a thread for fictional lineages?

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Update the Edward of Middleham becomes King of Ireland tree, open to suggestions:

King Edward I of Ireland, King-Claimant of England (1476-1504) m. Lady Margaret FitzGerald (1473-1542) [1], had issue

1. King Richard I of Ireland, King-Claimant of England (1493-1549) m. Marguerite of Angouleme (1492-1549), had issue​

1. King Edward II of Ireland, King-Claimant of England (1514-1572) m. Anne of Cleves (1515-1557), had issue​

1. Princess Anne of Ireland (1537-1589)​

2. Princess Margaret of Ireland (1538-1591)​

3. King Richard II of Ireland (1540-1598)​

4. King Gerald I of Ireland (1541-1600)​

5. Prince Edmund of Ireland (1543-1469)​

2. Princess Margaret of Ireland (1516-1539) m. William, Duke of Julich-Cleves-Burg (1516-1592), had issue​

3. Prince Richard, Duke of Ulster (1519-1574)​

4. Prince Francis of Ireland, Archbishop of Dublin (1521-1567)​

5. Princess Elizabeth of Ireland (1523-1567)​

2. Prince Edward of Ireland, Duke of York and Connaught (1496-1551) m. Lady Ellis FitzGerald (1494-1559), had issue​

1. Edmund, Duke of York and Connaught (1511-1579) m.​

2. Richard of Connaught (1513-1579) m.​

3. John of Connaught (1515-1555) m.​

4. Lady Ellis of Connaught (1517-1567) m.​

5. Lady Margaret of Connaught (1519-1581) m. Owen MacCarthy Reagh (1520-1594), Prince of Carbery​

6. Lady Anne of Connaught (1522-1587) m.​

3. Princess Anne of Ireland (1499-1519) m. Earl Manus of Sligo (1499-1564) [2], had issue​

1. Earl Hugh of Sligo (1514-1569)​

2. Sir Edward O'Donnell (1516-1572)​

3. Lady Anne O'Donnell (1518-1571)​

---

[1] Daughter of the Earl of Kildare, who is one of the key causes in the formation of the Kingdom of Ireland
[2] Otl, Chief of the O'Donnells, in otl he asked to be made the Earl of Sligo, here King Richard does so.

A kid/grandkid of Rowland FitzEustace, 1e Baron Portlester (the other half of the 8e earl of Kildare's opposition)
Viscount Gormanston (premier viscount in Ireland)
Per a 1984 edition of the Irish Heraldry Society, the Irish peers summoned to Greenwich to meet with Henry VII were:

Earls of Kildare, Ormond and Desmond and Lords Buttevant, Fermoy, Athenry, Kinsale, Gormanston, Delvin, Slane, Killen, Howth, Trimleston, Dunsany and Kerry. The Earl of Desmond and Lord Kerry did not attend.

As earlier Irish Patents or Charters of creation are rare the order of summons on those noted above is important. As we know that Lord Trimleston was created in 1462 and as he was fairly well down the list, it is at least likely that some of those above him were of earlier creations, although we cannot be absolutely certain. Apart from Trimleston the other known date of creation in that list is that of Gormanston who, of course, was a viscount.


The remaining ten barons summoned have been called “Barons by prescription” having been officially acknowledged in 1489. This method of creating a peerage is unique to the Peerage of Ireland. It is possible, of course, that a number of barons were not called to Greenwich because they were too old or too young. However, it is submitted that there are unlikely to have been many Irish Barons who were not called at this date. Charters or patents of creation of Irish Peerages before 1500 are rare, but include the seven Earldoms of Ulster, Louth, Carrick, Ormond, Waterford, Kildare and Desmond and the one Viscount Gormanston. There are also three baronies, Portlester (1462), Trimleston (1462) and Ratowth (1468). Three of the earls were summoned to Greenwich and the Barony of Ratowth became extinct in about 1480.

 

[RedKing]

A kid/grandkid of Rowland FitzEustace, 1e Baron Portlester (the other half of the 8e earl of Kildare's opposition)
Viscount Gormanston (premier viscount in Ireland)
Per a 1984 edition of the Irish Heraldry Society, the Irish peers summoned to Greenwich to meet with Henry VII were:

Are there exact dates for when their kids/grandkids were born? I was looking online and couldn't find anything concrete.

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Are there exact dates for when their kids/grandkids were born? I was looking online and couldn't find anything concrete.

https://www.stirnet.com/genie/data/british/ee/eustace01.php#top

 

[Kellan Sullivan]

Are there exact dates for when their kids/grandkids were born? I was looking online and couldn't find anything concrete.

	Rowland FitzEustace, Lord Portlester (d 19.12.1496, Lord Treasurer)
	m1. Elizabeth Brune (dau of John Brune)
	Probably by this first marriage was ...
	A.	Joan FitzEustace
	m. Richard Plunkett, 2nd Lord of Dunsany (d before 1482)
	m2. Joan Bellew (a 1463, dau of _ Bellew of Bellewstown)
	Unsure by which marriage (but probably not the 3rd) were ...
	B.	Alison FitzEustace (d 22.11.1495)
	m. Gerald FitzGerald, 8th Earl of Kildare (d 03.09.1513)
	C.	Cecily FitzEustace
	m. Richard Fagan of Derry Fagan (a 1458)
	m3. (by 1476) Margaret Dartas or Jenico (dau of Jenico Dartas)
	D.	Joan FitzEustace
	m. Sir Maurice Eustace
	E.	Maud FitzEustace
	m1. Thomas Marward of Skreen
	m2. Sir John Plunket of Bewley
F.	Janet FitzEustace
	m. Sir Walter Delahide
	partner(s) unknown
	G.+	other issue - Richard, Oliver

 

[yolly12345]

A few things…

First, I find it extremely unlikely that João and Eleanor would have seven surviving kids. Just look at joao’s marriage with Catherine of Austria IOTL and Charles v and Isabella of Portugal…not half as many healthy kids.

Second, and this is a minor thing but still, Barcelos was a title that belonged to the Braganza, which is how it become a royal title later on IOTL.

And third, Edward vi and Marguerite can work with Catherine and Francois but it would have to be completed at the same time, otherwise Edward would be marrying his sister (at least in the eyes of the church.

I know the number of kids is probably ASB, I was just trying to throw Eleanor a bone, but idk if I'd call Maria Manuela and especially Joao Manuel "healthy." Duly noted on the Barcelos, if you have a suggestion for another name for a title please suggest it. Also, I'm sure a dispensation can be easily procured for these marriages. Thanks for your feedback!

 

[HortenseMancini]

I know the number of kids is probably ASB, I was just trying to throw Eleanor a bone, but idk if I'd call Maria Manuela and especially Joao Manuel "healthy." Duly noted on the Barcelos, if you have a suggestion for another name for a title please suggest it. Also, I'm sure a dispensation can be easily procured for these marriages. Thanks for your feedback!

given the background i'd say four or five surviving kids would be a bone haha...and my suggestion for a dukedom would be porto, or maybe beja if dom luis still dies without issue (though i also think beja would go to dom carlos as the second son so he would have beja and guarda)

 

[yolly12345]

Henry, Duke of York died in 1502 instead of Arthur, Prince of Wales

Arthur I, King of England (b. 1486/d. 1529) m. 1501 Catherine of Aragon, Queen of England (b. 1485/d. 1536)

• Elizabeth of England (b. 1504) m. 1520 Joao III, King of Portugal (b. 1502)
• Henry, Prince of Wales (b. 1505) m. 1522 Catherine of Austria (b. 1507)
• Edmund, Duke of York (b. 1506/d. 1509)
• John, Duke of Somerset (b. 1509) m. 1530 Marie de Bourbon (b. 1515/d. 1538)
• Arthur, Duke of Bedford (b. 1511) m. 1532 Anne Bourchier, Baroness Bourchier (b. 1517)
• Margaret of England (b. 1513) m. 1529 James V, King of Scotland (b. 1512/d. 1542)
• Joan of England (b. 1514/d. 1517)
• Mary of England (b. 1516) m. 1534 Francesco II Sforza, Duke of Milan (b. 1495/d. 1535)
• Edward, Duke of Richmond (b. 1518) m. 1534 Katherine Willoughby, Baroness Willoughby (b. 1519)