Likely marriages if Edward VI Tudor survives?

Basileus Giorgios

I think that my next timeline will revolve around Edward VI surviving, and continuing to rule England as a radical Protestant state until the early 17th century. Massively extended Tudor dynasty anyone? And also I'll tempt everyone with exciting Ottoman-related-butterflies. The plans are very vaguelly beginning to come together in my head... Mary escapes to the Continent, and attempts to invade England in a Crusade around 1560, and Elizabeth is married off to.. whom?

Essentially, I need these three questions answering to begin my work.

1. Who would Edward VI marry? My plan is, shaken by his illness of 1553, the King decides to marry quickly, and his impregnated his wife with a son by 1555 at the latest. Might Jane Grey be suitable, or is she too close a relative, being Edward's cousin?
2. Who would Elizabeth marry? IIRC, Edward and Elizabeth were very close, and so it seems unlikely that the King would marry her off to someone she detested; but a radically Protestant England is probably going to need to obtain foreign allies from somewhere. A Schmalkaldic League prince?
3. Who replaces Cranmer as Archbishop of Canterbury? By 1560, Cranmer is going to be 71, and probably not much longer for this world. I doubt Parker would succeed him, being too moderate a Protestant, so might Edmund Grindal rise to prominence earlier?

Any other ideas would be appreciated, especially for the European stage. It won't be a long timeline like Isaac's Empire, probably just a short-haul one covering a century or two, so I'd like to get in as much as is practically possible and not ASB.
 

el t

Edward VI

A marriage with Mary Queen of Scots seems feasible. She is his cousin, but they could easily get around that. That would unite England and France at last. I don't about Elizabeth..
 

Deleted member 5909

After the treaty of Boulogne in 1550, and the resulting marriage pact signed later that year, Edward VI was betrothed to Elisabeth of Valois (b. 1545), the daughter of King Henri II of France. Her dowry was set to the tune of several hundred thousand crowns, and the marriage was scheduled for 1557 at the earliest.
As the agreement (masterminded by the duke of Northumberland) guaranteed a mutual defensive pact between England and France, and gained England an huge sum of money in exchange for the return of Boulogne (not to mention kept peace on the northern marches), it is not likely to be repealed any time soon. Even the princess's religion was not taken to be a problem, as King Edward insisted later that he could 'sway her opinions'.

Oh, and as an aside: Edward VI was betrothed to Queen Mary of Scotland from 1544; the Scots would repudiate the contract in 1547, during the wars of Somerset (or the 'The Rough Wooing'), but the English would still cling to the precontract until the downfall of Somerset and the above peace with France was signed in 1550; after which, Edward VI also renounced the agreement in favor of the French princess.
 

Falastur

Derek Jackson said:
What about Lady Jane Grey?
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This idea was discussed before. I'm not sure we ever came to a consensus on it, but my argument and the arguments of a few others were that Jane Grey without Edward being dead was just too unimportant - her family wasn't even nobility, they were just gentry - and Edward himself felt a very pressing desire to marry a foreign princess and strengthen England's ties, particularly with the other Protestant states.
 

Basileus Giorgios

Endymion said:
After the treaty of Boulogne in 1550, and the resulting marriage pact signed later that year, Edward VI was betrothed to Elisabeth of Valois (b. 1545), the daughter of King Henri II of France. Her dowry was set to the tune of several hundred thousand crowns, and the marriage was scheduled for 1557 at the earliest.
As the agreement (masterminded by the duke of Northumberland) guaranteed a mutual defensive pact between England and France, and gained England an huge sum of money in exchange for the return of Boulogne (not to mention kept peace on the northern marches), it is not likely to be repealed any time soon. Even the princess's religion was not taken to be a problem, as King Edward insisted later that he could 'sway her opinions'.
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Ok then, so I'll have Edward marry Elisabeth of Valois- and she manages to persuade him to limit his Puritanism, so we get a Church that is in many ways similar to the OTL 1559 Elizabethan compromise.

Any ideas for who Elizabeth Tudor should marry? Now that Edward has a foreign marriage in the bag, perhaps Elizabeth will be married off to someone at court... any ideas who?
 

Elrodian

el t said:
A marriage with Mary Queen of Scots seems feasible. She is his cousin, but they could easily get around that. That would unite England and France at last. I don't about Elizabeth..
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He said that he did want to marry her.
 

el t

Edward VI

If not Mary Queen of Scots, then I think a committed Protestant princess. Perhaps from one of the Protestant German states, or from Scandanavia.
 

Matthais Corvinus

1. Edward VI would probably move to marry a French princess, whether Elizabeth or another. The Hapsburg are going to be seen as the major threat to the English realm. I don't know if he will be able to produce an heir so quickly, since he was sick for so long. Until he has an heir I think he would move to formally name Elizabeth as his heir in order to secure the Protestant succession in the event of his death- the naming of Jane Grey was an effort by Northumberland to find an heir he could directly control, and if Edward VI has all his facilities then the Protestant Elizabeth makes the most sense.

2. I like the idea of a German prince. If Edward was marrying a French princess to oppose the Hapsburgs, then a German prince would be a good move to secure further allies. Furthermore, Edward's protestantism apparently had an international flavor that a German match would serve to continue.

3. Archbishop Cranmer proposed an ecumenical synod of all reformed churches, which gives an idea of where the English Church's head was. Combined with Edward's radical Protestantism I think influence by Calvin is a definite possibility, since radical Protestantism ended up being dominated by Calvinism. Calvin sent dozens of missionaries into France, so Edward could probably request some Calvinists be sent to England. There was probably an Englishman or two in Geneva prior to the Marian Exiles, so perhaps one of these men is raised from obscurity to the Archbishop of Canterbury.

How close one thinks the Tudor's had gotten to absolutism is going to be a major factor in this TL. Edward's radical Protestantism could lead to further reforms of the English Church, though going so far as to get rid of Bishops seems a major stretch. His religious views also will affect foreign affairs, as support for the Dutch rebels seems assured. His desire to fight Catholicism could also lead to the same conflicts that his sister had with Spain OTL, though who knows if he will be as lucky in his weather. His emulation of his father could lead to his direct engagement in fighting on the continent, something that will certainly create ripples, if not major, then at least major in England.
 

Deleted member 5909

Basileus Giorgios said:
Ok then, so I'll have Edward marry Elisabeth of Valois- and she manages to persuade him to limit his Puritanism, so we get a Church that is in many ways similar to the OTL 1559 Elizabethan compromise.

Any ideas for who Elizabeth Tudor should marry? Now that Edward has a foreign marriage in the bag, perhaps Elizabeth will be married off to someone at court... any ideas who?
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During the regency of Northumberland (especially the last few years of Edward VI's reign), there were negotiations for her marriage to King Frederick II of Denmark in play. Then again, there had also, earlier in the 1550s, been talk of marrying her off to the infamous Duke Alfonso II of Ferrara, one of the sons of the late duke of Guise, the Huguenot prince de Conde, or even Northumberland himself.
So really, it's up to you.
 

mcdnab

1) If Edward lives (and until he was actually ill he was relatively healthy) - then the likliest bride is Elisabeth of Valois. In fact it becomes a desired alternative once Mary of Scotland and the Dauphin are married because in the short term it neutralises the threat of a united Franco-Scots alliance and favours an anti hapsburg spanish alliance. It also offers on interesting take on what happens after Mary Stuart is widowed - Elisabeth and Mary had grown up together and they remained close. With a widowed Mary returning to Scotland you amend English policy and you might just have a protestant King who in religious terms is far closer to Mary's rebellious and difficult Scots subjects but who is far closer to supporting Mary's rights. (Elizabeth I was always reluctant to support rebels but the succession and religious issue combined meant her council was eager to stoke problems for Mary)
2) If Edward is still unmarried by the time Francis II dies then Mary Stuart becomes the obvious choice and despite her religion she is far less likely to turn that marriage offer down than her mother and nobles were a decade and a half earlier and essentially it will be her choice. She was exceptionally aware of her royal status (as was Edward) and in her own mind (fostered by her French family both the Guises and the Valois) she is Edward's rightful heir (due to the bastardy of his sisters).
3) Jane Grey - the Grey were by this period hardly country gentry - The Grey's had numerous lines of legitimate Royal descent. Her father the Duke of Suffolk was the great grandson of Elizabeth Wydeville (Edward IV's Queen Consort by her first husband) they'd been noble for around two centuries which considering the Tudor's had only been Royal for half a century was pretty good however I agree from the evidence Edward certainly respected her and admired her but unless no-one else was available I doubt she'd have been in the top ten of candidates.
4) I've already given my views on the Swedish options and for a variety of reasons i think its exceptionally unlikely and i don't really want to go back to that. Whilst a protestant German marriage is also unlikely I wouldn't rule it out but and its a big but Edward's Tudor pride is going to want someone of high status.
5) As to the Lady Elizabeth - Edward was closer to her than Mary (whose relgious views infuriated him) but he retained a fondness for both of them. However its worth bearing in mind that legally whilst being second and third in the succession gives them both marriage value they are still both illegitimate and an early marriage for Edward reduces their marital value further. Assuming that the Elisabeth of Valois marriage remains on the cards then I wouldn't rule out a marriage between the Earl of Arran's heir and Elizabeth - it enabled her to remain in England - he was nominally protestant and his madness only seems to have emerged in the late 1560's. He was still the son of Scotland's heir presumptive until Mary Stuart produced a child and would give Edward a foot in both camps (the then Earl of Arran was a keen switcher of sides). If we assume that Mary Tudor's lifespan mirrors what happens and she dies before Edward's marriage to Elisabeth of Valois is due to take place then Elizabeth Tudor's value increases and more options become available but the legitimacy issue remains a pertinant one.
 

Matthais Corvinus

The focus on whom he will marry is sort of tangential to the rest of his reign isn't it? Whether foreign or domestic (and I think foreign is certainly the way he will go- he is the third king of a dynasty that has passably survived its first regency- plus he is a protestant- so I would argue he is the most eligible Protestant prince in Europe) the match will probably not end up having a major effect on his foreign policy.

His protestantism was deep and radical. The same religious policies that defined his regencies would continue under his personal rule. He would probably move toward the Reformed camp (as opposed to Lutheranism) and an ambitious foreign policy (as befits the son of Henry VIII), and combining the two equals wars on the continent.

So the question is rather than wives, how do continental wars get effected by Edward VI? Depending on how absolute his rule is, the Tudor intervention on the continent could get messy and involved.
 

Basileus Giorgios

Ok then, thanks for everyone's support. Here's the very first rough draft I have come up with for the TL, and a bit of a frame for the future. Not terribly sure on the plausibility of some of it (especially the Russian-Ottoman alliance), but I was doing it at 3 this morning, being unable to sleep. Please feel free to blow holes in it, just as long as you aren't too nasty about it. Cheers. :)

The summer of 1553 marks a moment when English history balanced on a knife edge. The teenage King of England, Edward VI, had just begun to take control of his state, when he had been struck down with a major illness, possibly tuberculosis. Had Edward died, the throne would have been inherited by his sister, Mary “the Spaniard”, a radical half Spanish Catholic, whose own claims to the throne were dubious at best. Mary would have undone all of the work of Edward’s early reign, and denied England the great cultural flowering of the later 16th century. It is probably fortunate for us then, that around July 1553, the young King began to show a marked improvement, and by the time of his sixteenth birthday in October, his recovery seemed complete. Archbishop Cranmer ordered celebrations throughout London for this seeming proof of divine favour for the young King.

However, not everyone was so delighted. Mary the Spaniard, the elder sister of Edward, had been waiting now for over twenty years to clear her own name and restore the Catholic faith in England against the Protestant heretics; now her chances appeared to be retreating again. Once more, she was plunged into despair. Her life in England was now becoming intolerable. Over the autumn of 1553, she entered into correspondence with her cousin, the Holy Roman Emperor Charles V, who agreed to begin another secret expedition to extradite her from England.

The King was nonetheless extremely wary of his elder sister’s ambitions, and in November he summoned her down to London. Mary sent away his messengers, citing stomach pains, and assured her brother that she would set off for London as soon as she felt well.

In London, this was largely accepted. The Duke of Northumberland, John Dudley, at this stage still had effective control over Edward’s government, and had begun the process of restoring the country to prosperity after the excesses of the past decade. At the end of 1553, Northumberland had bigger fish to fry than the stomach pains of an ageing Catholic bastard princess. Instead, his attentions were focused on Edward’s other sister, the twenty year old Elizabeth. Initially, Northumberland had been looking to the French for a marriage for the Princess, in order to build up an anti-Hapsburg bloc, but over that Christmas, an intriguing new idea hit him, spurred by the arrival in his company of a large group of Hanseatic merchants. To the far east there was a Christian monarch who opposed the power of the Pope who was mightier by far than Edward Tudor; the young Grand Prince of Russia, Ivan IV. In many ways, Ivan seemed the ideal match. Northumberland’s fertile mind immediately began to spin into action. If Russia could become an English ally, then there would finally be a definitive block on Hapsburg advances in the East; and a powerful alliance between Orthodoxy and Protestantism.

So it was, that on December 20th 1553, Northumberland sent an embassy led by Matthew Parker, the Dean of Lincoln, to approach Ivan with the possibility of an alliance. Neither Northumberland nor Parker could possibly have known that their actions would lead to what became one of the most enduring alliances of the period; and one that would eventually spell the doom of the Hapsburgs and their vast dominions. Indeed, for now, Parker complained bitterly of being forced to set out across freezing and stormy seas for Muscovy.

Princess Elizabeth was also rather unconvinced by the plan. In London, Christmas quickly descended into a violent struggle at court between herself and Northumberland, who was attempting to persuade the King to bastardize his sister in favour of his cousin, Northumberland’s daughter-in-law, Jane Grey. In this, Elizabeth won out. Her brother flew into a rage with Northumberland, and seriously threatened to remove Jane totally from the line of succession, let alone promote her. Chastened, the minister retreated. It was the first hint of the Edward that was to emerge; a man devoted to his family and their well being, and, like his father, only too willing to cut down overly successful ministers.

This state of confusion at court gave Mary her chance. One night in late December, evading the guards set up for her by Edward and dressed as a servant, she fled her home in East Anglia. There, accompanied only by her priest and a couple of maids she rowed out into the icy North Sea, where a Spanish ship was waiting, just beyond the reach of the beacons blazing on the shore. As the fugitives reached their saviours, a particularly violent wave swept them into the freezing waters, and only the sounds of their screams of cold alerted the Spanish to their presence. All four were hauled ashore, taken below decks, and wrapped up in warm and dry clothes. Then, quietly, the ship sailed off into the night, heading for Antwerp. Mary Tudor had escaped.


1555- Mary crowned Queen of England in Rome.
1556- Elizabeth travels to Russia to marry Ivan.
1557- Edward marries 12 year old Elisabeth of Valois.
1558- Archbishop Cranmer is assassinated by an extremist Marian supporter. Edward begins major purges of Catholics, but refuses advice by the new Archbishop, Edmund Grindal, to burn them at the stake. A steady trickle of Catholics begins to flee England to the court of the exiled Queen Mary.
1559- Pope Paul III proclaims Mary Tudor to be rightful Queen of England, and declares Edward to be an enemy of the Catholic Church. In Muscovy, Elizabeth gives birth to a son, Alexander.
1560- Spain declares war on England, but France ignores the Pope, and remains neutral, due to the marriage alliance. Late in the year, it is announced Elisabeth of Valois is pregnant.
1561- Mary Tudor leads a vast Spanish invasion of England. The Spaniards are utterly defeated, when the French suddenly turn on them, and they are caught in a pincer movement between English and French ships. Edward has taken personal command of the English navy. While the Battle of Portsmouth rages, Elisabeth goes into labour. August 19th 1561 is seen as Edward’s moment of personal triumph; Mary commits suicide and the Spanish surrender in the morning, and in the afternoon, news reaches him that Elisabeth has delivered a healthy son, whom Edward names Henry.
1562- The French decide to seize the initiative against the Hapsburgs, and seize Metz and Milan. Edward meanwhile signs a peace treaty with them, while tacitly offering support to the French. Prince Henry is named heir to the throne. Death of Northumberland finally leaves Edward master of England.
1563- Encouraged by Elisabeth, Edward begins to slightly soften his position on Catholicism. Some decoration is restored to churches. The French take Tunis from the Hapsburgs.
1564- A pivotal year in Russia. Tsar Ivan dies, and Elizabeth assumes control of Russia on behalf of their three young sons, Alexander, Ivan and Nicholas. Immediately, she begins to make conciliatory noises towards Constantinople.
1565- Queen Elisabeth gives birth to a daughter, Jane. The French suffer a serious reverse at the Battle of Ravenna, when a Hapsburg army utterly wipes them out, and takes the King hostage. The Treaty of Nice eventually forces the French to surrender the vast majority of their gains, though they retain Tunis.
1566- The Ottomans manage to take Malta, and immediately begin to turn their attention north towards Hapsburg Sicily. The Knights flee to Tunis, which is ceded to them in perpetuity by the French.
1567- In Constantinople, two vast fleets are being prepared to seize control of Sicily, Crete, and Cyprus. Elizabeth Tudor, Tsarina of Russia, sends men and money to support the Turks, in exchange for cessions of territory in the Crimea, and privileged religious rights for Protestant Christians in the Ottoman Empire.
1568- Birth of the last of King Edward’s children, Prince Thomas. Edmund Grindal enters into a major religious argument with the Queen, eventually ending in his arrest and sacking as Archbishop. He is replaced by (who?)
1569- The Ottomans launch their attacks on Spain and Venice. Cyprus and Crete are taken by surprise, and fall swiftly. The Ottomans land in Sicily, and establish a large zone of control around Syracuse, which is violently sacked.
1570- Palermo and Messina fall to the Ottomans. Turkish garrisons are established in Bari and Reggio, and the Pope flees to Milan. The Ottoman Empire reaches its high water mark by the terms of the Treaty of Naples, which confirms Turkish rule over Sicily, Cyprus, Crete, and much of Apulia and Calabria. The Venetians are tossed a few scraps by Constantinople; Athens, Smyrna, Rhodes and Chania on Crete are all given to the Republic.
1571- King Edward begins negotiations for a marriage alliance between his six year old daughter Jane, and John, the young son of Duke William the Rich of Cleves. At the same time, he begins to take interest in the New World, and sends over an explorer by the name of Francis Drake to establish an English colony. The colonists are led by Thomas Sharpe, a loyalist Catholic eager to escape England.
1572- Thomas Sharpe and Francis Drake establish an English colony, Edwardstown; in a part of North America they name Seymouria after Edward’s historic family. The Turks launch an invasion of Tunis, but are crushingly defeated by the Knights Hospitaller.
 
DrakeRlugia

DrakeRlugia

Looks interesting so far. :)

The Russo-Ottoman alliance doesn't seem as implausible as you might think; this is before the era where the Tsars ached for a warm-water port on the Black Sea, and to see the Cross fly once more in Constantinople. I was reading a biography of Peter the Great (admittedly in a later era, but still) but during the Regency of Peter and prior to the Crimean campaigns, the Russian ambassador at the Porte was treated much better than other European ambassadors.

Mathew Parker might be a possible successor to Grindal, he was Archbishop during Elizabeth's early years. He didn't really want it, but he's more far moderate than Grindal (he didn't even leave England in OTL during Mary's reign).
 

CaptainAmerica

Ivan's first wife died in 1560, so either you must make her die somehow or delay Elizabeth's marriage to him but beside that i like it alot so far
 

Falastur

Nice work. Just two things I want to question.

Basileus Giorgios said:
There, accompanied only by her priest and a couple of maids she rowed out into the icy North Sea, where a Spanish ship was waiting, just beyond the reach of the beacons blazing on the shore."
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Which beacons would those be?

Also, viz Mary committing suicide...no. I can't really see it. I've come across a few TL writers who postulate suicides for failure to achieve aims throughout early modern Europe and beyond. I am unaware of any major political figure committing suicide up until the last century. They may have failed to achieve their goals, but they still have a life - an exiled pretender to a throne may never see their country again, but they are pretty much guaranteed a cushy life in some country or other - Spain, in this case - where they will be treated like royalty anyway. In fact, for being a potential tool for use against enemies, monarchs would often give them the kind of lifestyle they could almost expect back home. Take a look at accounts of the Jacobite claimants. And wars and conflicts were ten a penny in this era, especially with Spain. Mary might be destined to die of a stomach tumour soon, but the Spanish and the Pope etc didn't know that. They'd happily maintain her for the next time an invasion can be attempted. England's history is nothing if not repetitive in the "invasion by claimant" department, over this era. Personally I can name at least 16 attempted invasions of England specifically with the intention of enthroning a pretender, some successful others not from Henry IV's return to England in 1399 up to the Forty-Five. They would believe they had another chance to set her up. Also, and this is the killing blow, literally, remember that suicide is heavily stigmatised in the Bible. Anyone who commits suicide is condemned to an eternity of Hellfire. This doesn't really seem like the kind of thing the ultra-devout Mary would do for failing to reimpose Catholicism...
 
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