LIFE shows why a tougher line on Stalin would have been unpopular during World War II

I'd have backed the German resistance rather than snubbing them.
What (significant) resistance? And even then, what deal can you make that isnt accept defeat and occupation?
The most hostile you could get would be diverting some (but by no means all) of that aid to the Chinese Nationalists.
Is that not almost just as much of a waste, would not just cutting any long term supplies ie only send finished weapons not tools/materials be a better way to hurt USSR long term and not hurt war effort?
The Soviet’s were the only country that could’ve effectively stopped and cripple the Nazis.
I think US could perfectly have done so, it's just far cheaper for US to use Soviet personal to carry its weapon into battle.
 
Last edited:
Not sure if the NKVD was known to be a brutal secret police in the U.S. at the time, and describing both it and the FBI blandly as "national police" doesn't do anything to link the two, so I don't think any censors would get mad at it.

Also, the very fact that we're talking about the power of Hoover and how he would've made things difficult if he got upset at the comparison just reinforces that the FBI under his reign was closer to the NKVD than we'd like to admit. Maybe not to the same level of brutality, but certainly at a certain similar level of insidiousness and power-hungriness.

To be fair to Hoover (the bastard that he was) but he didn't spend his nights being driven around DC looking for teenage girls to be grabbed so he could proceed to rape them and potentially murder them if they tried to refuse too strongly.

Yeah the FBI under Hoover had a ton of problems and the man was a bastard. But he wasn't a mass murdering mass rapist in the same fashion that Beria was.

Beria in my mind stands alongside guys like say Oskar Dirlewange for "Fuckers so creepy and evil just reading a few paragraphs of a wikipedia page on them makes you want to barf."

Hoover wasn't a "good" man and did a lot of bad stuff. But he wasn't either the sort of professional or personal evil that Beria was. Honestly part of the reason why I felt that the show "Man in the High Castle" was really unfair to him (not as bad as say Omar Bradley whose estate I sort of almost feel should sue the show runners for Liable. Omar Bradley might have had some problems but the notion he would have become a general in the SS (or that the Nazi's would be moronic enough to actually integrate high ranking former American government/miitary figures like Bradley or Hoover directly into the SS/Heer after the US was directly annexed.) is just insulting even with the different POD.

Same deal with Hoover sort of. If the Nazi's directly annexed the US they'd be utter morons to let former high ranking American officials/generals directly into their SS/Heer/Government. I mean maybe if their was a puppet US government. But why in the hell would the Germans trust such high ranking figures who'd served a completely different government and then switched allegiances. Same deal with Hoover. He might have had a ton of problems and been a bastard but in his own way he was a loyal American. So joining a actively Anti American government/organization which had just conquered his own country wouldn't be something he'd do. Nor would the Nazi's be stupid enough to trust him.

And frankly he was also deeply protective of "his FBI" and his agents (as long as those agents didn't disagree with him, piss him off, or try to take fame Hoover wanted he was willing to do a lot to protect his agents. And while he did have some anti Semitic beliefs their were Jewish FBI agents and he'd probably die before handing those over.

I mean do you realize how fucking far off base a piece of fiction has to be to make me feel that they treated Hoover deeply unfairly and innacurately. And I really dislike Hoover.
 
This thread is wild

I mean for those not directly working for the NKVD not really traitors per se. But assuming a war with a similar Cassus Belli for the US (A "Dishonorable sneak attack" on Pearl Harbor and the Phillipines killing thousands in Pearl Harbor and killing or capturing thousands more in the Phillipines. and followed by the Germans DOW on the US and sending U boats to raid the US east Coast") such a large scale attempt at striking/sabotage of war industries is (at least in the manner described) really unlikely to play well with the US gov, the media, or frankly the vast majority of Union members at the time. I mean you did have examples like Brewster but once it got out both their Union and Corporate leadership became massively hated (Partially because as this guy proposes they didn't follow the no strike pledge, conducted sabotage (though not as first thought because they were Nazi Agents. Instead shifts would intentionally sabotage machinery right before another shift would take over. This meant that the accident happened on the other shift's watch and effectively made the first shift look better in comparison. That and a fair number of incidents of guys sabotaging the line to get it to shut down for a bit so they would get more free paid Smoke Breaks. Which honestly to me at least seems kind of worse then being a paid Nazi spy.), and their Union Leader was moronic enough to say on the record during an interview with a journalist of a major paper that if say his brother was a GI and his death from unreliable/useless gear produced by his Union would be OK as long as it benefited his Union. Saying on the record in a an article guranteed to get splashed across numerous newspapers that "Yes I'm perfectly fine with more American servicemen dying if it in any way benefits my union" is such mind boggingly moronic thing to say in I believe 1943. Caused basically his own greater Union and all the other major ones to publicly denounce him.

Organizing a bunch of strikes and open sabotage explicitly in order to "Save the Fountain of Socialism" during a war where there is a similar Cassus Belli that effects PR/public support in the way that PH did is guranteed to fail truly horiffically since while a fair number of Union activists were still openly/covertly communists or fellow travelers the vast majority of membership was not actually. So trying to sabotage the American war effort (and as Union members would see causing the deaths of their brothers and sons in battle) in order to "save Socialism/Communism" would literally destroy any Union that tried it in these circumstances. I'm not even talking about the Feds busting them. I'm talking about their own members deserting en masse, completely ignoring any strike attempts, and probably a fair amount of vigilante beatings towards worker believed to be trying to commit sabotage.

Now on the other hand if it's portrayed as a matter of "The Soviets are taking up the majority of the resources of the Nazis and by giving them support we're ensuring fewer American Gold Star Mothers" that's another matter (assuming the FDR admin is stupid enough to completely block Soviet Lend Lease. Though the Soviets were purchasing large quantities of resources, materials, and weapons from the US before lend lease. I believe they were largely doing so either with gold or with Loaned dollars from American banks). Basically trying anything like that "to save socialism/Communism/the USSR as a hope of the working class" is lead paint drinking for any major Union leader in the US trying it in this scenario. Playing it as helping a country avoid the opression of the Nazi's while greatly reducing US casualties might work if it's handled right.

Basically the American Union membership isn't in a Pearl Harbor type war going to mass sabotage the war effort explicitly in order to save communism/Socialism. If however it's portrayed as a practical attempt to reduce American csualties (assuming that without LL to the Soviets American casualties are worse.) then perhaps.
 
Funniest part of the Good Old Uncle Joe-propaganda are the mental gymnastics required to flip from this:
to that in three years.
 
Funniest part of the Good Old Uncle Joe-propaganda are the mental gymnastics required to flip from this:
to that in three years.

Ehh it's hard for most people to accept things as morally complex and nuanced as being forced to support a legitimately evil power (at least under Stalin at least) which had just recently allied with Hitler, supplied Nazi Germany heavily between Molotov Ribbentrop and June 1941, just conquered the Baltics, conquered Eastern Poland, tried to conquer Finland, and who had encouraged Moscow aligned foreign communist parties (which was pretty much all of them at that point) to at best play "Both sides" in the war between Germany/France and Nazi Germany and tried and abstain from supporting the war effort if not actively sabotaging (to unknown but somewhat limited effect) the Allied war effort. And now we neeeded to support and arm him because


a) Hitler and his plans were way worse.
b) We needed to keep the Soviets in the fight and the Heer bleeding agaisnt the Red Army to weaken Nazi German greatly lower potential Western Allied casualties.

Admitting "yeah your tax dollars and the products of our factories that could theoretically be arming our own boys are going to be going to a at least semi genocidal expansionist dictatorship and Communist Empire that just tried pretty hard to be best buddies with Hitler and actively attacked Poland at their lowest point, invaded and annexed the helpless Baltics, and just tried to conquer the country of Finland which was a Neutral Democracy. The same guy we're arming has murdered millions and his regime is filled with murderous cronies including his chief of the NKVD who's favorite "hobby" is prowling the streets of Moscow in his limo looking for random Teenage Girls to be his victims so he can rape and abuse them horribly and then give them a fucking bouquet of flowers afterwards. And that's the bastard in his "Off time" when he isn't overseeing mass murder, ethnic cleansing, genocide, and nearly every other atrocity you can think of.

Oh and when the tide does turn don't count on the Soviets leaving pretty much any country they conquer. And while we don't know it the Soviets have very heavily penetrated the US including having the founder and first chairmain of the fucking US House of Unamerican Activities Committee (Samuel Dickstein. Longterm Congressman from a district in Brookyln who besides spying for the Soviets also used his office for massive graft, corruption, theft, protection rackets, illegal naturalization/citizenship granting, and various other illegal activities. The guy was essentially a gangster with a seat in Congress. Hilariously enough his official NKVD code name was actually "crook") be a NKVD agent on their payroll receiving 2,000 bucks a month in return for saying and doing Stalins bidding."

Choosing the lesser evil and admitting having to do nuanced shit like that is hard and almost always politically unviable because the voters might want soemthing to be a certain way but they don't want to hear that their countries allies aren't all free democratic countries but instead some of them are murderous tyrants, bastards of the lowest sort, and the like.
 
Then we expose them as the traitors they are. Hope they enjoy the fresh air in Alcatraz!
The 44/5 strike wave and increased quality control issues didn’t result in workplaces being brewstered. Iirc they still sent the ships to sea to sink rather than reveal the quality control issues.
shit you're suggesting would have been hugely unpopular among the US public (and their own memberships
Until 43 yes. But the 44/5 wave shows otherwise. And the CIO at least was rather trying to hold back their membership pre 41 and were ineffective at doing so.

Bobby East Coast degree will get arrested for advocating sabotage.

the same people who survived the 30s without being sacked off lines still won’t be sacked off lines.

it’ll be experienced as flattened curves and liberty ship quality.
 
One final thought: the praise heaped upon Lenin, Stalin and even Beria in *Life* (and by other "respectable" media outlets and politicians in the West) should perhaps help put in context (not excuse) Finnish President Ryti's notorious commment in June 1941 that Finland was going to war alongside Germany and "her leader of genius , Reichchancellor Hitler . " https://books.google.com/books?id=XYFTZYJTyGAC&pg=PA226

Wartime alliances lead people to say stupid things.
 

Capbeetle61

Banned
Since so many people here think the US should have taken a harder line on Stalin during World War II--some even supporting a preventive war with it in 1945--I suggest they examine US public opinion toward the USSR during World War II to determine if that would really be feasible. IMO LIFE magazine's special issue on the USSR (March 29, 1943) gives some indication. Remember, we are not dealing here with a fellow traveling left-wing magazine, not even with a New Deal magazine, but with a publication by Henry Luce, a fairly conservative Republican.

We begin with the front cover--appropriately devoted to Joseph Stalin. https://books.google.com/books?id=A1AEAAAAMBAJ&printsec=frontcover

View attachment 700104

As Lars T. Lih notes, . "This photograph has a gritty realism that was conspicuously absent from visual images of the leader circulating in the Soviet Union. In particular, his pockmarked face was not hidden. For a foreign audience, these pockmarks added to the impressiveness. As [LIFE photographer Margaret ] Bourke-White herself wrote in a book published in 1942, “his rough pitted face was so strong that it looked as if it had been carved out of stone.” http://crisiscritique.org/ccmarch/lih.pdf

Lih notes that "There is no need to ask ourselves why an American mass-market magazine owned by conservative Republicans would published an entire issue favorable to the USSR in 1943. The Soviet Union had emerged triumphant from the battle of Stalingrad, and was a valiant, indeed necessary, ally for the USA in the war against Hitler." Some of the details are remamrkable, however.

Lack of freedom of the press in the USSR? "[The Russians] live under a system of tight state-controlled information. But probably the attitude to take toward this is not to get too excited about it. When we take account of what the USSR has accomplished in the 20 years of its existence we can make allowances for certain shortcomings, however deplorable. For that matter, even 15 years ago the Russian economy had scarcely yet changed from the days of the Czars, and the kulaks of the steppes were still treating modern industrial machines like new toys. In 1929 the Soviet Union did not have a single automobile or tractor plant and did not produce high-grade steel of ball bearings. Today the USSR ranks among the top three or four nations in industrial power. She has improved her health, built libraries, raised her literacy to about 80%--and trained one of the most formidable armies on earth. It is safe to say that no nation in history has ever done so much so fast. If the Soviet leaders tell us that the control of information was necessary to get this job done, we can afford to take their word for it for the time being. We who know the power of free speech, and the necessity for it, may assume that if those leaders are sincere in their work of emancipating the Russsian people they will swing around toward free speech—and soon."

"In an extensive photo-essay devoted to Lenin’s life, he is presented as “perhaps the greatest man of modern times.” “Lenin was the rarest of men, an absolutely unselfconscious and unselfish man who had a passionate respect for ideas, but even more respect for deeds … He was a normal, well-balanced man.” A normal, well-balanced man! How shocking such an assertion sounds today! In contrast, Trotsky was “a thinker and a dreamer … He went into exile, leaving behind a secret network of opposition which strove for years to undermine the government.” His rival, Joseph Stalin, was a “strong, tough silent proletarian man of action” who proceeded to “ruthlessly eliminate the so-called Trotskyist fifth column." http://crisiscritique.org/ccmarch/lih.pdf The use of"so-called" is one of the very few things the Soviet government objected to in the article... Anyway, the treatment of Lenin seems unbelievable today:

"Perhaps the greatest man of modern times was Vladimir Ilyich Ulianov. He took the name of Lenin, spent most of his fifty-four years in exile from his country, and gave the world the biggest new political fact of our era, the federal Union of Soviet Socialist Republics under a form of Communism.

"The impression of integrated force he gave in life may be sensed in the portrait above, taken not long before his great step to power. Lenin was that rarest of men, an absolutely unselfconscious and unselfish man who had passionate respect for ideas, but even more respect for deeds. He had mastered the trick of complete concen¬
tration. He had a fantastic capacity for work and was scrupulous and thorough about the smallest, as well as the biggest, duties of his life. He spoke English, German and French, as well as Russian, and could read Italian, Swedish and Polish. He was a normal well-balanced man who was dedicated to rescuing 140,000,000 people
from a brutal and incompetent tyranny. He did what he set out to do.

"Lenin did not make the Revolution in Russia, nor did any one group of men. But he made the Revolution make sense and saved it from much of the folly of the French Revolution. It is impossible to imagine what the history of Russia and the world would have been had he not lived..." (On that last point at least, I can agree..)

View attachment 700116

Collectivization? "The photo essay on agriculture is entitled “Collective Farms Feed the Nation.” The reader is informed that during collectivization, “the wealthier farmers, called kulaks, were brutally liquidated by death, exile or coercion.” Nevertheless, the bottom line is that “whatever the cost of farm collectivization, in terms of human life and individual liberty, the historic fact is that it worked … Russia could not have built the industry which turned out the munitions which stopped the German army.” http://crisiscritique.org/ccmarch/lih.pdf

Stalin's associates? "In a four-page spread, Stalin’s top leadership team is presented as “tough, loyal, capable administrators.” Lavrentia Beria, for example, heads the NKVD, identified as “a national police similar to the FBI [!]” His assignment at the present time is “enforcement of Stalin’s scorched-earth policy and tracking down of traitors.”

View attachment 700117

Lih concludes "This issue of Life is a somewhat unsettling journey to a forgotten past. Perhaps the issue is even somewhat embarrassing, but why, and to whom? Is it embarrassing to the USA business elite that showed it could whitewash Stalin’s crimes as well as any wooly-headed leftist fellow-traveler? Or is it a disturbing reminder of the present-day cultural amnesia about the time when the Soviet Union was a valued ally, when Soviet achievements were seen positively—and thus a reminder of the fact that we in the Western democracies directly benefitted from the huge sacrifices of a society and a system that today excites little beyond condemnation and mockery." http://crisiscritique.org/ccmarch/lih.pdf

Now to be sure this was published just after Stalingrad, when admiration for the USSR was at its height in the US. Neverthrless, it cannot IMO be dismissed as merely an echo of US government wartime propoaganda--Henry Luce could be quite critical of FDR when he wanted to be! Articles like this helped form public opinion but also reflected the natural wish of Americans to beleive the best about a warime ally (that also applies to Chiang Kai-shek's China by the way.) That is one of many reasons why a more anti-Soviet policy by the US would habe been so difficult to sustain as long as Hitler was undefeated (and even just after, which is why Operation Unthinkable was so aptly named--favorable images like these simply cannot--in a democracy--be erased overnight).
Had the Soviet Union performed any worse during the Second World War in 1941/1942, i.e. Operation Typhoon successfully captures Moscow in 1941 or Case Blue sticks to its initial plan of seizing Stalingrad before advancing on to the Caucasus in 1942, I really do doubt whether this rather short-sighted admiration for Stalin by the Americans would have been sustained for much longer. Stalin's popularity during the Second World War amongst the American public was as much fuelled by the Red Army's military successes against Hitler's Germany as well as any general co-Allied sentiment.
 
Top