Largest Brazil Possible Post-Independence

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

After Brazil becomes independent, how large can the country get? Could it gain more territory from its neighbors than it did? Can it gain a part of the Pacific coast? Could it gain colonies in Africa? Hell, could it even take over the whole South American continent? What would Brazil have to do to get as large as possible? What's the most realistic size of the country? Necessary PODs can be after the 1900s as well.

How would a larger Brazil impact South America, Latin America, the US, and the rest of the world?

 

[dianaswordofsappho]

Maybe Uruguay the Guyana’s and Angola?

 

[Dave Shoup]

After Brazil becomes independent, how large can the country get? Could it gain more territory from its neighbors than it did? Can it gain a part of the Pacific coast? Could it gain colonies in Africa? Hell, could it even take over the whole South American continent? What would Brazil have to do to get as large as possible? What's the most realistic size of the country? Necessary PODs can be after the 1900s as well. How would a larger Brazil impact South America, Latin America, the US, and the rest of the world?

How much detail do you want?

The Guianas depend on the Europeans (British, French, and Dutch) forgoing hanging on to them, which is possible, but requires some fairly significant butterflies.

Uruguay and Paraguay are also both possible, but since both nations were - to a significant degree - more valuable (or less costly) as buffer states between Brazil and Argentina then they would have been as "additional" territory for either of their larger neighbors, that takes some significant changes as well.

Some additional border territories from Bolivia, Peru, Colombia, and Venezuela are also possible, of course, but there are realities of center and periphery for every society; even a greater Brazil.

Depending on how things work out for Portugal in the aftermath of the Napoleonic era, some of what later became the Portuguese colonial empire - at least in the Atlantic and Africa - are possibilities.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Maybe Uruguay the Guyana’s and Angola?

Also Bolivia, the Southern Cone, Paraguay, and other territories in South America?

How much detail do you want?

The Guianas depend on the Europeans (British, French, and Dutch) forgoing hanging on to them, which is possible, but requires some fairly significant butterflies.

Uruguay and Paraguay are also both possible, but since both nations were - to a significant degree - more valuable (or less costly) as buffer states between Brazil and Argentina then they would have been as "additional" territory for either of their larger neighbors, that takes some significant changes as well.

Some additional border territories from Bolivia, Peru, Colombia, and Venezuela are also possible, of course, but there are realities of center and periphery for every society; even a greater Brazil.

Depending on how things work out for Portugal in the aftermath of the Napoleonic era, some of what later became the Portuguese colonial empire - at least in the Atlantic and Africa - are possibilities.

Depends on what's realistic. Maybe Brazil could take on all of South America, maybe most of it. Maybe it happens during the 20th Century or 19th Century.

 

[Deleted member 109224]

1. The House of Braganza does not go back to Portugal. Republicans take over the Portuguese mainland and the Portuguese Empire becomes the Brazilian Empire: Brazil, Azores, Madeira, Guinea-Bissau, East Timor, Macau, Angola, Mozambique.
2. A western border on the Parana River
3. Brazil gets a Pink Map connecting Angola and Mozambique.

 

[Dave Shoup]

Depends on what's realistic. Maybe Brazil could take on all of South America, maybe most of it. Maybe it happens during the 20th Century or 19th Century.

The Spanish-speaking colonial societies turned nation states would have objected, and all things being equal, could have successfully defended themselves.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

The Spanish-speaking colonial societies turned nation states would have objected, and all things being equal, could have successfully defended themselves.

Unless Brazil does.. you know.

Though they can also enforce assimilation depending on the area.

 

[Lampiao]

Extremely likely: French Guyana, Uruguay, Portuguese colonies (all three were part of the Portuguese empire in exile)

Very likely: Bolivian Lowlands.

Likely: Argentinian Mesopotamia, Paraguay, the other Guyanas.

Possible : Gran Chaco, the entire Amazon, expand the former Portuguese empire in Africa.

 

[Dave Shoup]

Unless Brazil does.. you know. Though they can also enforce assimilation depending on the area.

No, what, exactly?

Brazil, historically, has never been in a position of projecting significant power (outside of Brazil) anywhere other than across its land frontiers with adjacent states, and even then, the historical high point was the Triple Alliance War, and it still took almost five years for Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay to overrun Paraguay and force a final settlement.

 

[Deleted member 109224]

Brazil's population is straddled along a mountainous coast that significantly limits the ability to connect to the rest of the country. It's easier for Argentina to roll through Paraguay to get to Mato Grosso than it is for Brazil to get there overland.

If Brazil holds on to Uruguay, takes Paraguay, and grabs Argentina Mesopotamia, you've unlocked a maritime highway into the Brazilian interior.
To compare it to the US, prior to the Erie Canal it was quicker and cheaper to ship goods from the midwest to the northeast by sending them south along the Mississippi than it'd have been to try the overland route.

In South America, Brazil + Bolivian Lowlands + Uruguay + Paraguay + Mesopotamia + French Guiana + another slice of the the Argentina Pampas.
Brazil's Argentine border is along the Salado River here.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

No, what, exactly?

Brazil, historically, has never been in a position of projecting significant power (outside of Brazil) anywhere other than across its land frontiers with adjacent states, and even then, the historical high point was the Triple Alliance War, and it still took almost five years for Brazil, Argentina, and Uruguay to overrun Paraguay and force a final settlement.

I was referring to genocide. That’s not something to take lightly.

 

[unprincipled peter]

Brazil's population is straddled along a mountainous coast that significantly limits the ability to connect to the rest of the country. It's easier for Argentina to roll through Paraguay to get to Mato Grosso than it is for Brazil to get there overland.

If Brazil holds on to Uruguay, takes Paraguay, and grabs Argentina Mesopotamia, you've unlocked a maritime highway into the Brazilian interior.
To compare it to the US, prior to the Erie Canal it was quicker and cheaper to ship goods from the midwest to the northeast by sending them south along the Mississippi than it'd have been to try the overland route.

View attachment 494029

In South America, Brazil + Bolivian Lowlands + Uruguay + Paraguay + Mesopotamia + French Guiana + another slice of the the Argentina Pampas.
Brazil's Argentine border is along the Salado River here.

This is a realistic wank.
I doubt Brazil has the muscle to take/hold more, but an uber wank might include taking Bahia Blanca before the Spanish settle it, and from there the southern pampas. Once issue in all this is that Brazil needs settlers for all this color on the map.

 

[Deleted member 109224]

This is a realistic wank.
I doubt Brazil has the muscle to take/hold more, but an uber wank might include taking Bahia Blanca before the Spanish settle it, and from there the southern pampas. Once issue in all this is that Brazil needs settlers for all this color on the map.

Napoleon doesn't betray Spain, Spain annexes all of Portugal, and Portuguese emigrate en masse?

That, or Brazil decides to convert its system of slavery to one of indentured servitude, and those who've completed their indentures are offered free land.

 

[Lampiao]

Brazil doesn't need that much more people to maintain control over all this land. South America was, and still is, very sparsely populated.

Even after independence, Brazilians continued to be around 40 per cent of Uruguayan population, up until the great influx of European migration during the 1880's. Paraguay as well is ridiculously underpopulated considering how fertile the land is - the very fact that the country lost most of its male population in a war against countries with minimal military power is a testament to how small the population actually was. That's to say, just arrive with big guns and you don't even need to settle it, it's free real estate. However, to be able to use this military power it's pretty much the issue for a fragile huge country such as Brazil.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

Always been fascinated by the notion of an ATL Brazil with access to the Pacific, could it potentially take say part of northern Peru plus Ecuador?

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Brazil doesn't need that much more people to maintain control over all this land. South America was, and still is, very sparsely populated.

Even after independence, Brazilians continued to be around 40 per cent of Uruguayan population, up until the great influx of European migration during the 1880's. Paraguay as well is ridiculously underpopulated considering how fertile the land is - the very fact that the country lost most of its male population in a war against countries with minimal military power is a testament to how small the population actually was. That's to say, just arrive with big guns and you don't even need to settle it, it's free real estate. However, to be able to use this military power it's pretty much the issue for a fragile huge country such as Brazil.

It would definitely require foreign support as well as smart industrialization and militarization policies for Brazil to take even more for sure.

 

[Lampiao]

Always been fascinated by the notion of an ATL Brazil with access to the Pacific, could it potentially take say part of northern Peru plus Ecuador?

Def no. Too isolated areas to be useful. Cross the Amazon rainforest AND the Andes in a ridiculously sparsely populated area to have a sea to sea connection? It's kinda like giving Sudan an Atlantic coast.

 

[TickTock The Witch's Dead]

Def no. Too isolated areas to be useful. Cross the Amazon rainforest AND the Andes in a ridiculously sparsely populated area to have a sea to sea connection? It's kinda like giving Sudan an Atlantic coast.

Except Sudan is way too far from the Atlantic. Brazil is way closer. Besides it can go to Chile if it wants the Pacific Coast.

 

[Dave Shoup]

I was referring to genocide. That’s not something to take lightly.

Hard to see two equivalent "settler" societies in South America dominated by "white" elites - whether European or American-born - engaging in genocide against each other.

 

[Lampiao]

Except Sudan is way too far from the Atlantic. Brazil is way closer. Besides it can go to Chile if it wants the Pacific Coast.

Way closer from what? In the 1800's there's virtually no one living in the Amazon, besides Belem and Manaus. Even today, 2019, it's a 5-day boat trip between those two cities. Considering the conditions of 1800's steamships it's probably a journey of a week or two between the only real cities of the region. Before the invention of airplanes and massive deforestation the Amazon is simply a green Sahara.

By the way, it's also useless to think about crossingf the Andes, it'd never be viable logistically with 19th century technology. The first train line crossing the Andes between Argentina and Chile was built in the early 1900's and it's literally called 'Train in the clouds'.