Land of Flatwater: Protect and Survive Middle America

[Hörnla]

Indeed, they did not have the comfortable lives of the Americans in the 1980's whose lower-class lived in luxury that would be envied by the poor of most of the rest of the world.

I generally disagree that without comfort and luxury a nation ceases to exist. It might happen, but an idea doesn't simply starve.

I personally can imagine a North America consisting of more than a handful of nations. But I would say that not so many people living there do.

I say that North America probably balkanizes in the short run due to logistical problems, but not in the long run due to national separation. People will long for the "old times" and whoever can make a claim to re-establish the United States can draw legitimacy from that. (Macragge works around these points when he describes the preparations for a coronation.)

This might be cynical, but the long-term surviving Americans might find out that they are culturally more homogenous then they were before the exchange. Maybe I talk in clichés, but there may nevertheless be a grain of truth in this, and I think Chipperback is prepared to adress issues along these lines.

Of course, every group will be hard hit by the war, but those communities which have a chance to survive will have a more conservative, churchgoing, caucasian, rural outlook than the prewar-United States on average. Of course they will take in refugees and evacuees - but how many will that be? Especially everything that I would attribute to as "big-city-lower-class" which suffers low mobilitiy will be gone. (->Katrina)

The same change of society-structure will have an impact in other nations as well. This does not mean that America becomes a Republican nation or that Labour in Britain is wiped out while the Tories survive. If political alignments re-emerge postwar, they will certainly focus on new topics and along new frontlines.

I never said the Americans were the worlds least patriotic country.

I refered to myself and a I don't hide being from the FRG.

There were plenty of militia movements in the United States, some of whom had secessionist sympathies.

Most of them, though, rather think of themselves as "true" Americans which can be perceived as secessionist as they differ much from the actual form of the US political system - but I am not sure if complete Balkanization fits their agenda. In the long run, their localist and isolationist outlook will be their weakness once a force is able to field considerable police- and military power.

The zenith of homegrown militias was rather in the 1990s, anyways. That's not saying they didn't exist in the 80s already, but despite the good stuff they make for the stories in the timeline, we shouldn't overestimate them. Sure, a lot of these folks are survivalists and prepared. But a lot of them will die, too. And they weren't a movement of millions to begin with.

---

Again, I think that the general problem is that we deal in the P&S-universe not with a "nuclear war - virtually all people die", but with a "nuclear war - most people die, but millions survive" event. The probability for the first case is higher, I agree.

 

[Pavlovs_Cat]

A clearing at the end of days

I can hear the sounds, smell the flavoured smokes and just for a moment know what it feels like to be present as the end of the world to peers over the horizon. Awesome, just awesome writing............Thank you

 

[Dunois]

The amount of radiation released by Chernobyl is yet disputed, but I saw 150 million curies mentioned frequently. That's a lot of radioactivity.

Conversely, in the documentary Defense of The United States, there is a discussion of a hypothetical 15MT ground burst at Offutt AFB in Omaha. The estimate was that such a blast - a single weapon - would release one trillion curies, and that single blast would contaminate a goodly part of the Midwest.

Then add in all the blasts to dig out the missile silos in western Nebraska/Wyoming/Colorado area, and the missile fields in Montana, North and South Dakota, Kansas, and Missouri, and you've got massive contamination over a huge area.

The fallout from the BRAVO test blast at Bikini Atoll in 1954 (a single 15MT ground burst) was lethal at a range of 200 miles.

Curies are a meanginless way to measure radioactivity effects over large areas this for the following two very important reasons:
-Curies only measure radioactive activity, one decay reaction for 137Ce or 90Sr is one curie despite the large variance in the "potency" of the radioactivity released.
-Curies don't distinguish between alpha, beta and gamma decay
-Curies don't measure decay energy

I would also like to say that a highly biased documentary is NOT a reliable source of information for that kind of things. Castle Bravo fallout was definitely lethal at distances of up to 200km. Can it be used as a semi reliable measure of what would have happened in the case of groundbursts on missiles silos in the MidWest? Yes we can to a degree but only to a degree since the Soviet bombs will be "cleaner" as they are of a more recent conception and the conditions will be vastly different.
It is also quite possible that Soviets might be using lower yield but penetrating warheads to take out the silos.

I do not dispute the fact that in the short term huge areas of the country will be contaminated, but I want to add some perspective in this debate in sayin g that radiation is not as simple as a lot of people think.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

Again, I think that the general problem is that we deal in the P&S-universe not with a "nuclear war - virtually all people die", but with a "nuclear war - most people die, but millions survive" event. The probability for the first case is higher, I agree.

The general problem is actually neither of those. At its absolute worse, the world would still have well over a billion people left after all of the effects of the war (short, long, and really long term) inflict their toll. The real problem is the extended period of anarchy, factionalism, and barbarity that will eclipse the dark age. It will be decades before new nations are able to stabilise themselves in the former Soviet Union, United States, and much of Europe.

Between that time, we will see civil war, mass famines, and massacres on an unheard of scale.

I do not dispute the fact that in the short term huge areas of the country will be contaminated, but I want to add some perspective in this debate in sayin g that radiation is not as simple as a lot of people think.

If by short term, you mean more then a year then yes. Of course, when you consider that food supplies in more prepared countries would last only three months, if that, that is insufficient. It would be decades before you could eat food grown in certain regions (like around the missile fields) without facing a good chance of dieing from radiation sickness.

 

[Dunois]

If by short term, you mean more then a year then yes. Of course, when you consider that food supplies in more prepared countries would last only three months, if that, that is insufficient. It would be decades before you could eat food grown in certain regions (like around the missile fields) without facing a good chance of dieing from radiation sickness.

Once again we will have to disagree about food supplies lasting for only three months. I have clearly explained in the main P&S thread that millions of tons of grain will be available in storage in various points of the United States. Grain storage silos won't be a target and will protect the grain stored in them from fallout because of their design.

Earlier this year there were 9.74 billion bushels of grain stored in the United States outside of farms:
http://www.agweb.com/article/grain_stocks_off-farm_grain_storage_capacity_and_facilities/

This is:
9.74 x 10^9 x 27.215 = 265.07 x 10^9 kilograms of grain (assuming everything is wheat)
I will reduce that number by half since a bushel of wheat does not equal o bushel of oats in terms of mass.
So we are left with 132.28 x 10^9 kilogram or 132 280 000 tons of grain.
Even if merely 20% of this capacity survives we are still left with 26 000 000 tons of grain.
A ton of grain can feed three persons for a year assuming 1 kilogram of grain per person year day.
The remaining grain stocks are therefore sufficient to feed at least seventy million americans.

I am only looking at grain here, don't forget that millions of farm animals will have to be slaughtered for example and their meat should feed a lot of people for some time. Storing some of the meat for very long period of time is also possible without refrigeration, either by smoking it or turning it into jerky.

Agriculture will be quickly reorganised a month or so after strike and quantity will be key. Yields will be lower because of the lack of pesticides and fertilizers. But don't forget that agriculture will remain mechanised at least in part, since in peace time agriculture merely amount to a few percent of the national fuel consumption.

There is a lot of food around you if you carefully, especially if said food is rationned effectively. Don't forget also that a lot of people will have hoarded food ever since the crisis started. Some people are hoarders anyways whether for personal or religious reasons (Mormons are instructed to store a year worth of food by their churches for example). In my own food cupboard I have accumulated enough to last for two weeks, mainly by negligence. Chiefly rice which I don't keep track of and often buy by mistake.

Effective rationing will be key and a lot of Americans have never known what rationing is like (no insult intended here ). But we in Europe we know what it is like and we also know that it is survivable for years. Do people even realise that the average daily ration in occupied France in 1942 was merely 1200 kilocalories per day or about 250 grams of bread, 20 grams of meat, 10 grams of sugar and 10 grams of fat/cheese.
Said rationing lasted for the duration of the occupation and on a decreasing scale five years for the following five years. But people survived, the health effects were certainly negative, but people survived and the population was even booming during the last few years of rationing.

The key is law and order here obviously as without it, you can't implement rationing and you can't keep the economy running. Certain parts of the United States will be lawless and like the wild west for years (the northeast, the former major cities), but this is to be fair something which can be contained with the right policies and decisions. As the radioactity levels go down, going back to the cities will become an imperative anyways, just to recover the valuable materials and artefacts present in the cities.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

Grain storage silos won't be a target and will protect the grain stored in them from fallout because of their design.

I get the impression you don't know what fallout is. It's a simple question: can dust get in and out? If yes, then so can fallout. Indeed, looking at the criteria of a grain storage facility in the link provided, a number of those do not remotely sound like the kind of places that are protected against fallout...

Earlier this year there were 9.74 billion bushels of grain stored in the United States outside of farms:
http://www.agweb.com/article/grain_stocks_off-farm_grain_storage_capacity_and_facilities/

This is:
9.74 x 10^9 x 27.215 = 265.07 x 10^9 kilograms of grain (assuming everything is wheat)
I will reduce that number by half since a bushel of wheat does not equal o bushel of oats in terms of mass.
So we are left with 132.28 x 10^9 kilogram or 132 280 000 tons of grain.
Even if merely 20% of this capacity survives we are still left with 26 000 000 tons of grain.
A ton of grain can feed three persons for a year assuming 1 kilogram of grain per person year day.
The remaining grain stocks are therefore sufficient to feed at least seventy million americans.

And how are we going to get the grain from one place to another (in a way that does not expose it too fallout) before it rots after the infrastructure needed to move the necessary quantities of products in a reasonable time frame has been destroyed? And who is going to organize and execute these movements?

I am only looking at grain here, don't forget that millions of farm animals will have to be slaughtered for example and their meat should feed a lot of people for some time. Storing some of the meat for very long period of time is also possible without refrigeration, either by smoking it or turning it into jerky.

The same issues for these applies to grain.

Agriculture will be quickly reorganised a month or so after strike and quantity will be key. Yields will be lower because of the lack of pesticides and fertilizers. But don't forget that agriculture will remain mechanised at least in part, since in peace time agriculture merely amount to a few percent of the national fuel consumption.

Where are they going to get this fuel? From the depots and refineries that are extremely 'soft' targets and likely high on the Soviets counter-value list? And how are they going to get the fuel from the coast to the farms with roads, railroads, and pipelines rendered impassible? And what about the resulting desertification as the lack of fertilizers can no longer compensate for the loss of nutrients in the soil?

There is a lot of food around you if you carefully, especially if said food is rationned effectively. Don't forget also that a lot of people will have hoarded food ever since the crisis started. Some people are hoarders anyways whether for personal or religious reasons (Mormons are instructed to store a year worth of food by their churches for example). In my own food cupboard I have accumulated enough to last for two weeks, mainly by negligence. Chiefly rice which I don't keep track of and often buy by mistake.

Are the Mormon churches willing to share with the much greater number of refugees fleeing from the impacted areas? If yes, then you can kiss the 'years worth' number goodbye. If no, then what do those refugee's have to lose from just taking the food, especially after everything they have already been through?

Effective rationing will be key and a lot of Americans have never known what rationing is like (no insult intended here ). But we in Europe we know what it is like and we also know that it is survivable for years. Do people even realise that the average daily ration in occupied France in 1942 was merely 1200 kilocalories per day or about 250 grams of bread, 20 grams of meat, 10 grams of sugar and 10 grams of fat/cheese.

In an environment where food was available in much greater quantities and 100% of the available food was also completely safe to eat. Neither applies in a post-nuclear war scenario.

And hey, at least in the US we only have to worry about radiation, in central europe you're going to have to deal with persistant nerve gas demolishing not only your food supply, but also the ecological background which agriculture requires*.

The key is law and order here obviously as without it, you can't implement rationing and you can't keep the economy running.

For the average person, survival > law & order. Areas that might have been able to fend for themselves will rapidly be over run by desperate refugees. When that happens, they can either risk giving up their self-sustainability or risk pissing off large numbers of desperate people who have already been through one of the blackest experiences a human being could have gone through.

*If you don't understand, consider the following two things as the very tip of the iceberg: 1. There are just as many insects that are essential for agriculture as there are that harm it and 2. VX was originally created by accident as a result of research into insecticides.

 

[Gen_Patton]

I did a ton of research on food supplies and the nuclear holocaust before doing my TL. Here are some of the resources I used:

Here is a snippet of a study conducted in Ukraine during the 1980's about fallout after the Chernobyl disaster.

Here are a short series of snippet articles which discuss in layman's terms the effects of fallout.

A blog post with links to declassified data on the effects of nuclear weapons.

An excellent pdf. on soil, food and the nuclear war.

Some good data on 1816, the year with no summer, an event from which all predictions of nuclear winter are based off of.

My conclusion:

Soil contamination will be a large problem in the years to come. No actual data on cleaning radioactive soils has been released, so most of the ideas are speculative. The effects are hard to measure (thankfully we have never had a full blown nuclear war) and it is improbable that the effects will be anything less than severe. Food supplies will be contaminated for up to 5 years in some areas and food supplies will collapse within a year.

-Gen_Patton

 

[John Farson]

I did a ton of research on food supplies and the nuclear holocaust before doing my TL. Here are some of the resources I used:

Here is a snippet of a study conducted in Ukraine during the 1980's about fallout after the Chernobyl disaster.

Here are a short series of snippet articles which discuss in layman's terms the effects of fallout.

A blog post with links to declassified data on the effects of nuclear weapons.

An excellent pdf. on soil, food and the nuclear war.

Some good data on 1816, the year with no summer, an event from which all predictions of nuclear winter are based off of.

My conclusion:

Soil contamination will be a large problem in the years to come. No actual data on cleaning radioactive soils has been released, so most of the ideas are speculative. The effects are hard to measure (thankfully we have never had a full blown nuclear war) and it is improbable that the effects will be anything less than severe. Food supplies will be contaminated for up to 5 years in some areas and food supplies will collapse within a year.

-Gen_Patton

Translation: We are fucked. Then again, no one ever said that a global thermonuclear war would be a walk in the park.

 

[Dunois]

I get the impression you don't know what fallout is. It's a simple question: can dust get in and out? If yes, then so can fallout. Indeed, looking at the criteria of a grain storage facility in the link provided, a number of those do not remotely sound like the kind of places that are protected against fallout...

I have to restrain myself not to lash at you there. I know very well what nuclear fallout is for god sake, I have studied nuclear engineering and nuclear science after all, so I am sorry there but I think I know the topic a little bit!

The protection afforded by a silo is better than having the grain right in the open. There will be some contamination, but not all the grain will be contaminated. The stuff at the bottom of the silo won't be contaminated for example.

And how are we going to get the grain from one place to another (in a way that does not expose it too fallout) before it rots after the infrastructure needed to move the necessary quantities of products in a reasonable time frame has been destroyed? And who is going to organize and execute these movements?

For god sake it is mad pretty clear that there is fonctional government in parts of the country, including Nebraska, parts of Georgia and the Cascades. Organising transportation and distribution of said supplies will be the first thing on their priority list. A lot of rural railway lines will have survived in placs as well, which will be a small help.

Where are they going to get this fuel? From the depots and refineries that are extremely 'soft' targets and likely high on the Soviets counter-value list? And how are they going to get the fuel from the coast to the farms with roads, railroads, and pipelines rendered impassible? And what about the resulting desertification as the lack of fertilizers can no longer compensate for the loss of nutrients in the soil?

A large number of Oil-Rigs will survive all across the nation, I would not be surprised if a few are still intact and operational in Nebraska. Small refineries will survive in places, there a small operation productin only 100 000 barrels of curde has no strategic value. Existing stocks in petrol stations and in stored for the emergency should be significant as well. Don't forget that post strike oil demand will be 5% of what it once was pre-strike ...

Are the Mormon churches willing to share with the much greater number of refugees fleeing from the impacted areas? If yes, then you can kiss the 'years worth' number goodbye. If no, then what do those refugee's have to lose from just taking the food, especially after everything they have already been through?

I am merely pointing out the fact that some people and organisation do hoard and that said hoarding is something to consider in the post strike equation of how things are.
As it stands I expect Mormon communities in Utah to weather their new circumstances rather well. These guys are very organised and have a lot of networks and organisations within their own churches. It honestly would not surprise me if a lot of rural Utah countries are still functioning in a lot of respects.

In an environment where food was available in much greater quantities and 100% of the available food was also completely safe to eat. Neither applies in a post-nuclear war scenario.

You frankly need to read a bit more on WW2 history in Occupied Europe there in my opinion. There was so much food after all in Occupied France that people were reduced to eat Jerusalem Artichokes and Swedish Turnip. I won't even mention the even direr situations in Occupied Poland, Occupied Soviet Union and the siege of Leningrad.

And hey, at least in the US we only have to worry about radiation, in central europe you're going to have to deal with persistant nerve gas demolishing not only your food supply, but also the ecological background which agriculture requires*.

Everyone has his own troubles!
The use of nerve gas on the front is a possibility, but again to say that their use will result in a Silent Spring scenario requires a stronger factual basis in my opinion. I fully understand the theory behind it, but whether said scenario happens depends on a lot of variables.

For the average person, survival > law & order. Areas that might have been able to fend for themselves will rapidly be over run by desperate refugees. When that happens, they can either risk giving up their self-sustainability or risk pissing off large numbers of desperate people who have already been through one of the blackest experiences a human being could have gone through.

We have already learnt in the other P&S TLs how to deal with the refugee problem and what will happen will likely be a mixture of the carrot and the stick in a way. Refugees will have a very hard time, but lets face it a good chunk of refugees will be walking dead and de facto zombies, hardly a menace in my opinion.

I did a ton of research on food supplies and the nuclear holocaust before doing my TL. Here are some of the resources I used:

Here is a snippet of a study conducted in Ukraine during the 1980's about fallout after the Chernobyl disaster.

Here are a short series of snippet articles which discuss in layman's terms the effects of fallout.

A blog post with links to declassified data on the effects of nuclear weapons.

An excellent pdf. on soil, food and the nuclear war.

Some good data on 1816, the year with no summer, an event from which all predictions of nuclear winter are based off of.

My conclusion:

Soil contamination will be a large problem in the years to come. No actual data on cleaning radioactive soils has been released, so most of the ideas are speculative. The effects are hard to measure (thankfully we have never had a full blown nuclear war) and it is improbable that the effects will be anything less than severe. Food supplies will be contaminated for up to 5 years in some areas and food supplies will collapse within a year.

-Gen_Patton

I am NOT disputing the quality of your research, but merely adding perspective in the debate by throwing facts and figures which have been too few and far between in my opinion.

I would advise caution on the nuclear winter issue which is highly controversial. I think Macragge approach of the "middle way" so to speak has been the correct one.

As you mention yourself you are speculating, so be very careful in your speculations and everything. I would strongly advise everyone writing on the subject to spend a few days learning about radioactivity, nuclear power, nuclear science and nuclear weapons in detail especially the hard science behind it and more importantly the mathematics. If you have access to a University library, grab a nuclear physics/engineering textbook, it will be a dreary and heavy read, but it is worth it for everyone who wishes to understand the subject better.

I would also like to provide a link to a book on the effects of nuclear war made by several specialists and scientists in 1979:
www.aussurvivalist.com/downloads/7906.pdf

Read this book it is a very good read, especially the fictional account in the Appendices.​

 

[Unknown]

What about the Nebraska Power and Light Company, Chipperback? How did they prepare for the war (I'm surprised they haven't gotten a mention yet.)?

 

[Chipperback]

"What about the Nebraska Power and Light Company, Chipperback? How did they prepare for the war (I'm surprised they haven't gotten a mention yet.)?

Glad you asked. It will be further covered on our next look back in Nebraska (coming this week -- I'm still hanging out with Tony in West Germany)

But the short strokes.

Nebraska's power is handled by three main combines

Omaha Public Power District -- They handle the Omaha Metropolitan area. They run a group of plants including Fort Calhoun Nuclear station.

Nebraska Public Power District -- They are in charge of a great deal of power generation in rural eastern Nebraska and a greater part of Central and Western Nebraska through a group of county and regional cooperatives. They have facilities in 91 of Nebraska's 93 counties and operate a number of hydro dams in west central Nebraska and the Brownsville Nuclear Station in southeastern Nebraska

Central Power and Irrigation District -- Mostly rural-based across the central and western Nebraska plains. They run a group of hydropower dams for home and farm irrigation.

Plans for War.

1. PROTECT SURVIVING FACILITIES -- These will be priorities for the National Guard forces. Power facilities will be secured

2. REPAIR AND RESTORATION -- This is were surviving technicians will come into place. Just as the fire equipment will most likely be evacuated, so will as many line trucks as possible from OPPD area and as many NPPD apparatus will be secured...in addition to the National Guard/Army Corps of Engineers personnel.

But the power plans will more or less depend on what gets hit...and what is who is left.

The immediate plan will center around making sure critical infrastructure has emergency power. Hospitals, and command-control.


The three combines would merge functions and surviving personnel under control of the continuity state government in conjuction with surviving local governments.

Another key facet will be how agriculture gets handled. While the troops are fighting hard overseas, county extension services, farmers and ranchers are working here at home.

But the cracks and the fissure are showing, too.
Not everybody is a team player.

 

[Dunois]

Infrastructure wise, will the railways running in Nebraska have some special plan and have made some special arrangements? Looking at it, Nebraska is lucky to have some "local" companies like the NENE and the NKCR with a fair amount of mileage in the state.

The railwap map from your departement of roads is very interesting:
http://www.dor.state.ne.us/rpt/rail.htm

Railway infrastructure especially in North America is quite sturdy, as it is designed for very high loads and very long and heavy trains. Outside of bombed out places, I would expect a lot of infrastructure to survive and be in a usable condition. Nebraska is lucky looking at the map not to rely on a single hub, though the likely loss Lincoln will be a severe blow to the network.
Even once weekly trains operating on the mainline would be a boon to transportation and coordination, especially of agricultural supplies and coal if the mines in surrounding states can be made operational again. The supply of diesel fuel might be problematic, but I bet that these local railways have some storage facilities of their own.

May I also ask if further down the line say six months to two years after the strikes, you envision Nebraska "expanding" if contact with neighbouring states and communities as not been made. It would be in Nebraska best interests to expand in a "oil slick" fashion but by bit once the intrastate situation is stabilised in my opinion.

 

[ivfl]

Its likely Fort Calhoun is a target but not of ICBMs.Soviet strategy would first be interested in taking out the US ability to hit back and then go after whatever is left.So most likely some bomber would be assigned the duty to nuke it, ICBMs since they are pretty much invulnerable would be targeting the US military especially anything having to do with nuclear weapons.This is all speculation but it makes sense at least.There would be other problems in keeping these places operational.One is the high likelyhood of workers fleeing.
Many would be tempted to run especially since they all have families or most of them anyway.Add to this confusion and panic following an event like this,rumours of whatever and keeping things in operation is hard.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

Its likely Fort Calhoun is a target but not of ICBMs.Soviet strategy would first be interested in taking out the US ability to hit back and then go after whatever is left.

Nuclear power plants rank very high as counter-value targets, so if Calhoun doesn't get at least one ICBM warhead, it will get an SLBM warhead instead.

 

[Chipperback]

"May I also ask if further down the line say six months to two years after the strikes, you envision Nebraska "expanding" if contact with neighbouring states and communities as not been made. It would be in Nebraska best interests to expand in a "oil slick" fashion but by bit once the intrastate situation is stabilised in my opinion.

That is a possibility, but in the previous fall, Governor Kerrey was attempted to coordinate with surrounding states towards that issue. Building a regional cooperative bloc that could come together post-attack of necessary.

Right now, every option is on the table, depending on who gets hit and how they get hit. That is something that the emergency government to come doesn't know yet..

But that day is growing closer...

A new update coming up in the next 6-12 hours.

This is KFAB 1110 Omaha...and here is the news at this hour.

"NATO forces have mounted a counteroffensive in West Central Germany at this hour. Reconstituted U.S. Tank forces in combination with reinforcements from the U.S., Britain and France are moving on Soviet positions to the north of Stuttgart."

"Elsewhere British air support from the North Sea has stymied the Soviet advance on Denmark, but NATO planners still fret that Copenhagen could fall."

"Elsewhere in the world. We receiving unconfirmed reports that a Sino-Soviet clash has broken out on the Chinese Border with Siberia. The Official Chinese News Agency says Soviet air forces have violated the border constantly in the last 12 hours and have fired on Chinese forces."

"Sources in the Israeli defense ministry say that Israeli air forces have destroyed Syrian tank column threatening the Golan Heights. Israeli ground forces are in the area amid concerns that Soviet defense advisors have been embedded amongst Syrian troops."

"Here at home, reports of mass evacuations and panic buying are growing in major metropolitan areas across the country, including here in Omaha. The CEO of the Baker's Supermarket chain says that resupply of stores will be difficult tell citizens not to panic. New shipments will reach all Eastern Nebraska stores by Monday morning. The CEO of the Albertson's supermarket chain, which runs a number of stores in Central and Western Nebraska also vows that shelves will be restocked over the weekend. Both CEOs say that the majority of shipments will be of non-perishable items and canned goods."

"The Nuclear Regulatory Commission, in an emergency session this afternoon, has ordered the shutdown of all U.S. nuclear public power facilities. The head of the NRC says this is, "A precautionary measure to ensure public safety in the event of an attack on the United States."

"Officials for both OPPD and NPPD agree with the NRC decisions. In a joint statement, the heads of both power districts says that they are working together to ensure that the area and the state at large will have 'survivable continued electric service, especially to essential sectors'."

 

[JasonQ]

Once again we will have to disagree about food supplies lasting for only three months. I have clearly explained in the main P&S thread that millions of tons of grain will be available in storage in various points of the United States. Grain storage silos won't be a target and will protect the grain stored in them from fallout because of their design.

I dunno...if I were the Soviets I might've considered targetting a few of the larger grain-storage and processing facilities in the US and Canada. There are several that might be worth a shot. Many would be destroyed without being specially targetted anyway - they aren't especially hardened AFAIK.

Earlier this year there were 9.74 billion bushels of grain stored in the United States outside of farms:

Sure. The trouble is getting it to the people who need it. I'm not sure the logistics would be there anytime soon post-strike to actually distribute the food. For one example, it seems likely that the largest rail yards and junctions would be targetted - Omaha, North Platte NE, Kansas City, Chicago, Denver, Minneapolis...

I am only looking at grain here, don't forget that millions of farm animals will have to be slaughtered for example and their meat should feed a lot of people for some time. Storing some of the meat for very long period of time is also possible without refrigeration, either by smoking it or turning it into jerky.

Consider though that many of those animals would have died of radiation poisoning, disease or starvation in the period immediately following an attack. Also consider that there would not likely be facilities or manpower available for processing all that meat. Having done a bit of both, I can tell you that preparing meat for smoking or jerking is pretty labor-intensive. Also, that preparation requires salt. A lot of salt. Where's that to come from?

Agriculture will be quickly reorganised a month or so after strike and quantity will be key. Yields will be lower because of the lack of pesticides and fertilizers. But don't forget that agriculture will remain mechanised at least in part, since in peace time agriculture merely amount to a few percent of the national fuel consumption.

This assumes there would be farmers still alive to plant, tend and harvest the crops. While a return of mechanized ag would certainly be possible in a longer-term scenario, it seems to me that short-term farming (like for the first year) is strictly going to be on a subsistence basis.

There is a lot of food around you if you carefully, especially if said food is rationned effectively. Don't forget also that a lot of people will have hoarded food ever since the crisis started.

Undoubtedly. But most people don't really understand the quantity of food it takes to feed, say, a family of four for 3-6 months. It's really quite a bit of food, even at a reduced calorie intake. And a lot of folks just don't have the space to store a lot of food.

Also, if you expect people to be able to function beyond a minimal level, the 1200-kcal/day ration you mention isn't going to do it for long. After a fairly short time, the impact of such a diet will hamper any reconstruction/cleanup efforts, not to mention the effects of vitamin deficiencies, lack of sufficient protein, etc.

The key is law and order here obviously as without it, you can't implement rationing and you can't keep the economy running.

Certainly. But beyond certain special cases (like areas that are relatively lightly affected by blast or fallout) will there be any real ability to provide said law and order? Over a landmass the size of the US, probably not - especially if there were no national government to take control. Governing a large area requires a lot of manpower, which would probably be sorely lacking in such a situation. Figure in wholesale destruction of communications, transport, etc. and you've got a huge problem on your hands.

 

[Chipperback]

Land Of Flatwater: One Nation Under The Gun

Here's a chance to dance our way
out of our constrictions
Gonna be freakin'!
Up and down
Hang up alley way
With the groove our
Only guide
We shall all be moved

Ready or not here we come
Gettin' down on the one which
We believe in

near Untergruppenbach, West Germany Saturday February 18, 1984 1730 ZULU

"Can I get it on the good foot GOOD GOD!!!!" Tony screamed as he moved his tank into position to get Okie another shot.

Shells, bullets and jet contrails zigzagged across the German plains. The instant U.S.-British-German-French coalition of tanks battled the Soviet and Bulgarian armor trying to run to help their legions in Stuttgart. The NATO forces were determined not to give them the chance.

Along side them was ground infantry. Using M-16s, RPGs and anti-tank missiles. A desperate charge to slow the Soviets down, and it was working. For the first time all day, the Soviet troops were feeling strangled.

"Mark 045," the Tank Commander wailed. "FIRE!"

"DIE RED BASTARD!!!" The Gunner yelled as the shell flew toward a Bulgarian T-72. The shell struck it mark true......

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOM!!!!!!

The explosion rocked the ground, and it was the first of many. The MiG-23s roared in firing rockets. Su-25s dropped concussion bombs. Soldiers with stinger and AA guns sent a response, but not before the Warsaw Pact aerial strike put 4 tanks down and out.

"Shit!" Tony yelled. "WHERE'S OUR AIR COVER!!!!"

"Badger 1-5 to ground...set up air hunter groups. KNOCK THOSE BUGS DOWN!

Stingers spewed fire as missiles raised up to chase the attacking fighters. The tanks continued their assaults on the opposing armor. Wary of the next pass for the aircraft. Hoping some NATO air power would get in the fight.

Tony drove Yankee 3-1 like a man possessed. This was bigger than anything he had ever done. Through the explosions, chaos and death going on around him, he felt amazingly calm. He was well in "The Zone". Numb to everything except what mattered most. Three other lives in his hands.

"Badger 1-5 to all tanks, watch for their next pass..."

"Copy that, leader.."

"WATCHTOWER ..ALERT....ALL FORCES....INCOMING AIRCRAFT.....COVER ENROUTE...

Tony could see the Su-25s. He could feel them...He heard the missile warning beep in the cupola....BEEEEEEEP

"SHIT!," the TC said in his West Virginia drawl. "They've got lock..."

The other tanks in the column broke for retreat... Tony instead zigzagged in random directions the draw the fire. He knew the game the Russian and East German pilots wanted to play.

"Tony WHAT THE FUCK ARE YOU DOING?" the TC screamed.

Tony rotate the the turret, "Sir, man the gun up top. Okie, fire some rounds now...You see anything with a red star on it...NAIL IT," Tony said in a robot monotone.

Okie selected a target, loaded the shell and fired...BOOM!!!!!

The round impacted an East German tank trying to hide in some woods. "Stay with it Tony...I'm hitting him again.."

The later shell revealed the truth. a group of East German tanks were setting up a trap to pick off the NATO tanks after being draw out by the aerial assault. The Soviet strategist designed this well. They just didn't account for a Johnny-on-the-spot kid from Omaha seeing through it.

Ground troops dug in and battled the Warsaw Pact troops seeded with elite Spetsnaz personnel. The East German armor fired a constant barrage, but the representatives of the West stood their ground. The NVA was slowly losing their grip...

WOOOOSH!!!!!!!!!

bom! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

"INCOMING!!!!!!! MISSILE ATTACK INCOMING!!!!!" the Radioman screamed.

Two more shell roared from Yankee 3-1 as Tony franctically danced the tanks around the rockets and missiles... He nearly got away with it..

One rocket glanced off the track of Yankee 3-1 and it deked away...

BOOOOOOOM!!!!!!!!

Yankee 3-1 was hit and nearly feel over.. The tank was still functioning...but couldn't move..and some of the electronics were damaged.

"C'mon Baby!" Tony pleaded, his position rising in smoke.. "C'MON! C'MON!!!!"

The big Oklahoma gunner grabbed Tony..."C'mon Husker," he yelled as he grabbed Tony, "WE'RE OUTTA HERE!!!!"

The commander and the radioman grabbed the M16s stored in the tank and crawled out through an emergency hatch from the rear.

""A new style tank," the TC thought as the slid out through the back and into the smoke fog and craziness of war.

Tony was in a daze. He barely noticed the flying bullets and the smoke. He noticed the tank. His tank.

He looked at the track grotesquely askew as the metal smoldered. The steel composite armor did it's job. Tony seemed frozen and numb. Just a minute ago, he was in the heat of battle. He still was, but in his mind. He could hear nothing. It was just him and the tank. His tank.

BOOOM!!!!!

"WAKE THE FUCK UP AND C'MON," the Radioman said. "YOU ARE ONE DUMB.....DAMN MAN!!! C'MON!!!!"

the Radioman and the Okie grabbed tony and they start weaving and running across the dense smoke. It was confusion. Soldiers pushing and running.. Two air strikes, one from the Frogfoots and second one from A-10 Warthogs turned much around Untergruppenbach into a cauldron of smoke and fire. Both sides were hit hard. The remaining Soviets pulled back in a daze."

"All forces pull back to designated fallback positions. I SAY AGAIN...retreat to fallback positions...retreat to fallback positions....time check...1915 ZULU...."


"Where do we go now," the Okie asked."

The Tank Commander pulled out his compass..."West, we head west...It's going to be dark soon."..

The light faded over West Germany within the hour. It was darkness again. In the far distance, you could hear the guns of the battle. But not here. Here was just a cold wind, and the hulks metal, spent shells, and at least four of the airplanes, twisted, wrecked and strewn across the tree and plains.

The foursome ran for the trees, heading west. The only sounds they heard was their pounding hearts.

2300 ZULU Saturday February 18, 1984 near Galgenberg, West Germany

The Radioman periodically tried to raise someone. "Yankee 3-1 to Any Eagle Control...over....Yankee 3-1....transmitting to all Eagles...over.."

"Still nothing," the Radioman said.

The Tank Commander furiously studied his maps to find where they were. They had just scaled and small set of wooded hills and dales heading northwest away from Untergruppenbach.

"Reminds of being on a cattle drive back home," the Okie said. "It's getting cold and we may have to consider bedding down."

"We have to keep pushing," the Tank Commander. "We have to find the nearest installation. There has to be our people there."

Tony hadn't said a word since the firefight at Untergruppenbach. He gripped his M-16 like a child with his favorite toy. He was still shaking. Remembering the fear-adrenalin cocktail he was guzzling as he drove that tank. His eyes darted nervously. He was had looked straight down the edge of the cliff between life and death.

The Radioman looked back at Tony. "Hey man," he said. "You still with us?"

Tony nodded silently, but the Radioman could see the glaze in his friend's eyes. He didn't like the look. "Hey man, you don't look good.. Sir! Get back here...Check Tony out."

The Tank Commander turned and checked Tony out. He looked pale and scared. The E-5 was shellshocked, and it showed.

"Talk to me solder," the TC said tersely. "Specialist Freeman report in."

Tony stood at attention. He wanted to speak, but nothing would come out at first..

"Sir.......I'm......sorry.......sir," Tony said haltingly.

"Sorry about what,man?" the Okie said.

"I.....nearly...killed...us.....all," Tony was blank. Scared. He was breaking down. He began to cry..

The TC struggled a little bit to keep calm. He was just as nervous and scared as Tony. Everybody was. Four men together who had never seen combat. On that day they saw more death than they ever had in their lives.

The TC stood right at Tony's face. "Listen to me soldier," he said. "Freeman, you took charge and saved our lives back there. You didn't kill us. You are still alive, soldier so DON'T APOLOGIZE FOR TAKING ACTION! We are still alive soldier. We need you right now, Specialist! Don't fold on the team, brother."

"Yeah man," the Radioman said. "Stay with us, Omaha. We need you!"

Tony gripped his M-16 tighter. "Yes sir," he said with a little more confidence. "Sorry sir...I'm....just..."

"Afraid," the Okie said. "So what? We all are. No shame in that.

"None at all," the TC said. He looked at his three mates. "Fellas, we are going to find our people. We're going to get another tank, and we are going to kick some Marxist-Leninist ass!"

The four continue to walk through the dark night. Little food. Little sleep. Little of a lot of things. They were running on will and faith....But, they were being watched...

"Главный товарищ, прослеживая четыре. Они вооружены. Возможно американец." ("Comrade Major, tracking four. They are armed. Possibly American.")

"Контролируйте их. Сообщение в. Подготовите западню." (""Monitor them. Report in. Prepare the trap.")

"Wolf Scout to Homestead....tracking four. Looks like a tank crew. Sound like ours. Should we approach?

"Maintain surveillance Wolf Scout...Let's see if their friends make a move."

"Homestead, one of them is black, sir. Since when did Spetnaz recruit Soul Brothers?"

"He could be Cuban or Angolan and well trained. Continue tracking, Wolf Scout. Homestead out."

The foursome continued to make their way through the grass fields mixed with more deep treeline. Tony looked around. His mind was beginning to put its pieces back together. The whole day was replaying in his head. They didn't realize that they were well into Sunday February 19. To them it didn't matter. They were on the run. They were at war.

Sunday February 19, 1984....0500 ZULU....18 clicks southeast of Hockenheim, West Germany.

They had taken a short rest during the night. Maybe an hour, but the Yankee 3-1 team was on the move again. Radioman had caught a trace of a signal an hour ago.

Parallel to the four soldiers, were more soldiers. Watching. Probing. Waiting.

"I see something ahead," the TC whisper. "It looked like a man...wrapped in a parachute. The man could see them, too. All four began to raise their weapons."

"The man panicked. "Lads, lads! Mates! Put those down. I'm one of you."

The four trained their weapons, the TC spoke first. "You sound British."

"Because am I British," the man, looking like a haggard RAF pilot, "Major Colin Norcross, RAF 3rd Squadron. Damned Reds took down my Harrier. My Sarah, she was a lovely little jet."

Tony's mind began to mesh, he could form words now. "You are a long way from home, Major. Shouldn't you be up North?"

"They rotated a number of us south to help you boys," the Major said.

"Well, you guys did help us out big time," the Okie said. "Brutal fight yesterday.

"Untergruppenbach? Stuttgart?" Colin enquired.

A few clicks away a troop was listening in with a wire in his ear. Other troops began to spread out. A separate force watched through binoculars and they began to spread out, too.

"We're part of a tank crew," the TC said. "We are trying to find if any allies are uncamped anywhere. Maybe we've regroupped someplace."

"I've gotten some radio signals," the RAF Major said. "I've been tracking a place just Northwest of here. I don't have a great fix, but I have a good idea. Maybe we can help each other.

Tony shot the Radioman a quick look. It was look that said, "Don't say shit, yet." Tony knew the Radioman had picked up something. But something struck Tony odd about flyer they've met. Shellshock was replaced by suspicion.

The foursome now added one as the began to follow the British pilot. Tony made his way close to him. "Excuse me, sir," Tony said. "We forgot something."

"Soldier?" the TC asked.

"Major...Norcross?"

"Yeah, mate?"

"Call sign, Major."

Norcross looked confused, using the morning as cover, but Tony was wide awake.

"Look mate, no need to cause a fuss."

Tony's eyes narrowed.."Call sign, Major.

"Are you taking the bloody piss? WE DON'T HAVE TIME FOR.

"CALL SIGN!"

In one motion Tony pulled, loaded and drew his service sidearm..The British flyer was found out, as he was scrambling to speak into the microphone he was wired with.

"Это трусит! ТЯНИТЕ СТРУННЫЕ! Окружите и нападите на американцев!" ("This is Kuklachev! PULL THE STRINGS! SURROUND AND ATTACK THE AMERICANS!")

BANG!

Tony shot the "RAF Major" at point blank range. A perfect head shot. A quick execution, but he did not celebrate.

"WHAT THE FUCK!" the TC protested.

"Be silent and take cover. spread out! Spets are here," Tony replied firmly.

Eyes roaming. Looking for Soviets. Looking for the Spets. Looking. Looking. Looking.......

"The AK-47 pinging morse code rang through the trees. The Soviets sniping for where they thought the Americans were. Tony saw them crunching throughs the tree. He turned from a position behind a large rock..and fired. He struck two of their number.

The TC dove into a bank. Radio and Okie found cover behind some rock-strewn marsh. They were four men with M-16s, service pistols, and a few grenades against a Spetsnaz unit of maybe 30.

The Soviets raced to surround the area. One of them drew a bead on a body they saw...and he threw a grenade..

"SHIT!" the Radioman screamed.."MOVE OKLAHOMA!!!!"

The dove out of the marsh as the grenade blew up..They barely escape with their limbs. But Oklahoma got the worst of the landing..

"OH JESUS!! OH JESUS!," Okie screamed. His clavicle was broken from way he landed while diving away from the grenade. "His arm and shoulder were on fire with pain. Radioman was shooting with one hand, while trying to help us friend with the other.

Tony was pinned down behind the rocks. Bullets pinging off the front of it. He could see the Soviet soldiers in the distance. They were firing from all directions.....

BOOOOOOM!!!!! AAAAAAH!!!!!

Two precise grenade strikes hit each side of the perimeter the Spets set up. The screamed pierced the pre-dawn air. The special pitch of the AK-47s were down out by the dog's bark of M-16s.

Tony and the Commander joined in the chorus. Picking off the last Spets..

"HOLD YOUR FIRE" a voice said.

"ATTENTION UNKNOWN TROOPS," said a voice with a slight spanish accent. "COME OUT. HANDS UP. WE ARE FRIENDLIES."

Tony was shaking, scared, holding his rifie tightly. He saw the soldiers coming out of the brush. They were Americans.

The TC was the first to stand up. Tony then climbed out...The Radioman, helping Okie walked toward them.

Their leader was a big man. He looked a little bit like Desi Arnaz, economy-sized.

The big man stepped up front. "CALL SIGN!" he said.

All four answered, "CHRISTMAS"

Tony shot back, "COUNTER SIGN, SIR!"

"Don't sir me, soldier. I work for a living. -- Counter sign JINGLE!"

The big man smiled. "Staff Sargent Gabriel Siffuentes. Marine 3rd Division Recon."

"Good to see you Sargent," the TC said. "2nd Lieutenant Bill Michelle, United States Army. 2nd Armored Division.

"Staff Sargeant Kevin Lashar, United States Army

"Com specialist Ricardo Brown, United States Army

"Specialist Tony Freeman, United States Army

"Nice shot on that Spets you drew down on, Specialist. You must be from the wild west," the Marine said.

Tony replied back, "I am from Nebraska, Staff Sargeant."

"Oh you are?" the marine laughed. "Then I oughta leave your ass right here, Cornhusker."

"Why is that?"

The marine grinned. "I'm from Coral Gables, Florida. I'm still a little sore about the Orange Bowl."

The gathered Americans soldier grinned and laughed a little bit. Slowly daybreak was rising over West Germany.

"Saddle up Army brats," the marine said. "We're about 16 clicks from our rally point. Good morning, World War III. We're still in it.

Hockenheim, West Germany -- 0710 ZULU. -- Sunday February 19, 1984

The troops arrived at the NATO rally point. It was a hastily assembled forward base built into the Hockenheimring. In a peaceful world, this place is a Formula 1 race track. Since February 18, 1984, its a barracks and a hospital.

"Sir," the marine said to his CO, "We took out that Spets group we've been tracking, with a little help from these four Army pukes."

"Good morning," the marine Colonel stood up. "Colonel Mitch Gerhardt, 3rd Division. Damn good to see fellow Americans."

"Damn good to see you too, sir," the Tank Commander said. "So what is this place."

"Welcome to FIREBASE FINISH LINE," the Colonel said. "We just turned a race track into a place to regroup, and that is what we are doing. You boys look like you haven't had a hot meal or a shower in at least a day."

"We've been under fire since this all started," Tony said. "By the way, sir. What time is it."

"0715 ZULU Sunday Morning, soldier," the Colonel said. He noticed the wary look in the four men's eyes. They really have seen a full day of combat.

"Staff Sargent take the big boy here to the infirmary. Collarbones aren't supposed to stick up like that. Don't worry son, we have a crack team of medics."

Okie grimaced under the pain, "Thank you sir."

The Staff Sargent helped Okie out of the office.

"Fellas," the Colonel said. "Here's the poop. The Soviets hit us with four major incursions. A sea landing to the North on the Danish coast and the German coast. A Northern land group . The Third Shock Army rolled across the middle for the fulda gap. And then a Southern group that made a beeline for Stuttgart.

"That was the group that hit us," the TC said.

"Yes they were," the Colonel said.

"How bad off all we, sir?" Tony asked.

The Colonel looked deadly serious, "Not gonna lie to you, son. Its a world of hurt. We took a lot of beating in the first hours. Major losses. It would have been a lot worse if REFORGER didn't work as well as it did.

"The damn Soviets pushed in farther than we thought they would. I didn't expect them to be knocking on some big doors this soon."

"You mean they are surrounding the cities?" the TC said.

"They are sitting just outside Frankfurt and Stuttgart. They are threatening Hamburg. Do the math Lieutenant."

"I had heard that they were blocked from getting in and that Copenhagen has fallen" Tony said.

"Soldier, nothing has fallen," the Colonel said. "And that's some of the good news."

"You mean there is good news?" the TC retorted

"Hell yeah, Army! You're alive, dammit! That's put you well ahead about 100,000 other guys who are laying dead out there on both sides."

"Plenty good news," the Colonel continued. "Our allies have been unreal. The damn Dutch shocked all of us up North. Them and the British Navy turned that sea landing into one of them rifle games at the state fair. That set them back. Plus, they can't resupply as fast as we thought they could. The Air Force boys have been sending in 52s to Eastern Europe. We've hit rail lines, communications links, and send a nice bottle of wine to Lech Walesa. Solidarity people helped us took out some communications and control links for the Reds in southern Poland.

"How about the rest of the world?"

"That's better than we thought, too," the Colonel said. "The United States Navy owns the Persian Gulf. The Soviets bugged the hell on out when the Kitty Hawkers took it to them. You have Soviet submariners washing up on every beach from Turkey to Lebanon. The Syrians are seeing Israeli army everywhere. The Cubans are blockaded, and after what happened on the coast of Texas, I don't think they want to play the game."

"The colonel looked at the map. "The battle is here, gentlemen. Germany. North Sea and the Med. We're getting help from the other side, though. We may just walk out of here yet, especially if we can weaken them enough to where we can chop them up at GOAL LINE STAND."

"GOAL LINE STAND?" Tony asked.

""That's the game plan. Set up a big wall at the Rhine and dare the Soviets to try and knock it down."

The Colonel looked at the three men in his office. "You boys head to the mess tent and get some chow. You look like you could use it. Then I want you to get some Zs. It is 0735. Be back here at 1100 hours. We have new tanks coming in, but they will need people."

The three began to head out of the Colonel's office. "Gentlemen," the Colonel interrupted. The three Army troops turned around.

The Colonel snapped a salute, "I must salute you men," tears slowly forming in his blue eyes, "24 hours on the run and fighting hard. Way to keep fighting men."

All three returned the salute. They were still alive. They were still in the fight.

 

[Ingsoc75]

In 1984, wouldn't the AK-74 be the standard infantry rifle for most Soviet units?

 

[Gen_Patton]

Well if not standard, it would at least be standard of the Spetznaz. Perhaps they are using the AK-47 because they prefer the larger cartridge?

 

[John Farson]

Hockenheim, West Germany -- 0710 ZULU. -- Sunday February 19, 1984

"Good morning," the marine Colonel stood up. "Colonel Mitch Gerhardt, 3rd Division. Damn good to see fellow Americans."

Not... THAT US Colonel?

All three returned the salute. They were still alive. They were still in the fight.

But maybe not for long...