La Serenissima: Venice, Dawn of a New Power 2.0

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Nice update! and happy Thanksgiving! :D

Looks like Alexandria has a chance to shine again. I wonder how will Mamluk Cairo take this news, even if it's days as capital are now numbered either way.

EDIT: Also, Martin Luther's Reformation. I wonder what shall happen now that Venice is more powerful and has more butterflies than OTL.

Thanks! You've got it, at this point it doesn't really matter what Mamluk Cairo thinks. The Ottomans are all it can handle and more...

In regards to the Reformation, I think it's more wise to look at the weaker Papacy for changes in the movement instead of a stronger Venice. As I've researched the Reformation it seems that Italy never really swayed away from Catholicism.

Pray tell, are the Swiss forces still divided as ever?
Also yay! More of the TL :D

To please our Kaiser of Toronto, Turkeys shall be sacrificed across the land today and I shall be overseeing the ceremony personally.

Being utterly massacred at Marignano couldn't have helped the Swiss divide any. Certainly the crushing defeat may force the Swiss to resign from future fighting indefinitely, halting any future attempt to capture of the Vaud. The Swiss will become far more divided as the Reformation begins.

Also thank you kindly for overseeing the Turkey ceremony. It was beautiful, though I still can't breathe normally...

Excellent. Has the issue of the Latin Patriarch of Alexandria been brought up yet, or is that being left alone for the time being? It appears that the position was either vacant or held by someone unknown to history at the time. Perhaps the Patriarch of Venice may assume the title himself as a way of indicating that the Catholics of Alexandria and Egypt are properly beneficed to and spiritually protected, while still being unobtrusive enough on the ground that it isn't a threat to the Copts.

Yes, it appeared the post was vacant or its holder unknown until 1550. For the time being I don't see the Venetian Patriarch claiming the title for himself; The Venetian policy for Alexandria will be more laissez-faire, especially in terms of the religion in the city in order not to stir the pot (with the exception of the past Muslim domination over Christians).

I wonder if Damietta may join Alexandria in this Venetian trading network, or whether it'll be the main Ottoman port of trade for the Red Sea and beyond.

I'm still undecided about that one as I believe you or someone previously mentioned. Despite the especially close relations the Ottomans and Venetians now share, I don't think Selim would take kindly to Venice snatching another Egyptian city even though technically this is their war (especially considering Damietta's position as an entry point to the Ptolmeic).

On a side note: Firstly The end of this TL's Part 18 (cumulatively 13,700 words) marks the end of Part 1 in the original TL (just under 2,000 words). I set out to rebuild the original with far greater detail and content; I think this is cause for a "job well done".

Secondly: Does anyone know of a Reformation expert on the forum? I have a few Reformation questions about possible scenarios and would like to run it by a resident expert.
 
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Being utterly massacred at Marignano couldn't have helped the Swiss divide any. Certainly the crushing defeat may force the Swiss to resign from future fighting indefinitely, halting any future attempt to capture of the Vaud. The Swiss will become far more divided as the Reformation begins.

Probably won't impact the Vaud. The Transalpine wars were predominately conducted by Uri, Obwalden, Lucerne, Valais and the Three Leagues, while the conquest of the Vaud was pretty much entirely a Bernese affair. The only way you're avoiding that is if Savoy is in a much better state, which looks unlikely. Larger and more violent divisions after the reformation may certainly be possible though.

Yes, it appeared the post was vacant or its holder unknown until 1550. For the time being I don't see the Venetian Patriarch claiming the title for himself; The Venetian policy for Alexandria will be more laissez-faire, especially in terms of the religion in the city in order not to stir the pot (with the exception of the past Muslim domination over Christians).

Probably the Latins in Alexandria are considered to be directly under the jurisdiction of Venice for ecclesiastical purposes then. Not that it'll amount to much more than a single Catholic church for the garrison and possibly another at the port for merchants. Might prove to be another point of contention with Rome if the Pope ever decides to appoint another Patriarch though.

I'm still undecided about that one as I believe you or someone previously mentioned. Despite the especially close relations the Ottomans and Venetians now share, I don't think Selim would take kindly to Venice snatching another Egyptian city even though technically this is their war (especially considering Damietta's position as an entry point to the Ptolmeic).

Probably a no then.


On a side note: Firstly The end of this TL's Part 18 (cumulatively 13,700 words) marks the end of Part 1 in the original TL (just under 2,000 words). I set out to rebuild the original with far greater detail and content; I think this is cause for a "job well done".

I've had the same thing with a major rewrite of one of my things on the backburner. the Prologue expanded to 13 chapters. I'm rewriting again now to take into account that I switched to a completely different writing style at about chapter 20.
 
Part 19, Preparations Begin

Late October: The Ottomans once again triumph over the Mamluks in Gaza on their grand march to Cairo.

November: In a gracious act, Loredan opens the Venetian-controlled island of Cyprus to the Ottoman navy for their intended invasion of Cairo. Although there is a strong contingent of fighting galleys, the majority of the ships are intended to form a supply line to Ottoman troops in Egypt.

December: Peace is made between the Papacy, France, and Venice.

January 3, 1516: The battle of Ridaniya is fought just outside of Cairo. Once again, the Turks prevail, defeating the last of the Mamluk army. Despite a last minute attempt to acquire cannons and other firearms, it does little use to help the Mamluks make their last stand against Selim.

January 6: The Ottomans finally enter Cairo, the heart of the Mamluk Sultanate causing its immediate collapse.

January 29: With news of the Mamluk fall, the Sharif of Mecca submits to the Ottomans, placing the Islamic holy cities of Mecca and Medina under the control of Selim. This extends the Ottoman Empire into the far south reaches of the Red Sea.

The news of the fall of Cairo and the Mamluk state reaches Venice where it is met with relief. The republic kept a good face during the brief war suffering virtually no casualties, and most importantly work on the Ptolmeic Channel can resume immediately. The leadership of Venice is credited with masterful decision making and diplomacy which saved large sums of money for the city.

February: The incredibly wealthy Cornaro family purchases a block of land ravaged by the fire in the Rialto. This sends shockwaves around the city’s wealthiest families, now all locked in a war of artistic patronage against each other. What is to be built there is yet undetermined, but whatever is destined for the block of charred land will no doubt be magnificently opulent.

In Florence, Niccolo Machiavelli comments in a letter to his friend, an ambassador in Venice. The ex-statesman says that the republic is flawed in having made an already powerful nation (the Ottomans) even stronger, while making a marginal gain in comparison.

Late February: Anxious to continue Red Sea trials, the newest brigade of carracks arrives in Alexandria from Venice where they are quickly disassembled and sent south to Suez. The fleet includes 12 galleys.

Work on the Ptolmeic Channel also formally reconvenes.

March: The Ottomans are quick to renew the previously Mamluk attempts to drive the Portuguese from the Red Sea, and the Spice Route in general. Their Venetian allies are steadfast on this issue as well, and this becomes the main order of business and policy in the region for both nations. The Ottoman navy begins patrols of the Red Sea, temporarily distracted however by the occupation effort of their new Arabian lands. The Venetian navy, currently well on its way to Suez for reassembly, will begin scouting the sea for suitable areas to build bases.

April: The Venetian Bailo in Constantinople meets with the Porte to discuss some details regarding Egypt. While the length of the Ptolmeic Channel is completely open to both Venice and the Ottomans equally (an agreement stopping either –namely the Ottomans- from barring the other from entry), difficulties in getting Venetian ships into newly Ottoman Suez for reassembly has proved difficult. The Ottomans assure them that this is solely due to the heightened military presence in the area for the time being. Nevertheless, the two sides agree that the entry and exit cities of the Channel should be included in the “Ptolmeic Agreement”. The cities of Damietta and Suez are therefore deemed “Ptolmeic Cities”; though they remain under Ottoman rule, Venetians are assured equal access and freedoms as the locals within the city limits. This final agreement makes the canal from end to end and essentially ‘shared’ land between the two nations, allowing for equal mobility and usage of the Ptolmeic.

May: A Portuguese fleet tries its hand at taking the city of Jidda, now under Ottoman rule. The Ottomans manage to repel them, but the battle is costly.

The victorious Pasha in command had overseen the Ottoman fleet stationed in Venetian Cyprus just months ago. Knowing of the Venetian attempts to perfect their ocean-going fleet, he sends three captured Portuguese carracks to Suez, where the Venetians will be alerted of them. The rest is up to them.

June: The Venetian Red Sea fleet arrives at Massaua to construct a base there. They headed straight from Suez to the city, which has been inhabited by Venetian merchants since the early 15th century. Knowing therefore the benefits of its location, they decide that Massaua Island is the place they will build their first fort.

In Suez, Venetian shipwrights are alerted to the arrival of 3 captured Portuguese carracks for them. The shipwrights, though incredibly skilled, are fearful of disassembling all the ships in case it ruins any ‘secret’ components. They decide to carefully disassemble one, taking vigilant notes on the ships’ design and sending those notes to Venice with the ship. The other two will remain in Suez for further inspection. Immediately into the deconstruction valuable information is collected on the ships that had previously eluded the Venetians.

July: The Ottomans begin reinforcing Suakin in order to complement the Venetian fort at Massaua, located further south.

August: The Patriarch of Venice pays a visit to Alexandria. He meets with the various Patriarchs of Alexandria as a show of the similarities between the cities. His visit is met with a lukewarm reception, which turns considerably colder when he announces the plan for a new Catholic Church to be built in the city for the Venetian garrison stationed there.

In Europe, the treaty of Noyon is signed between Francis and the new Spanish king, Charles V, ceasing all further hostilities. France is to be recognized as the ruler of Milan, and Spain as the ruler of Naples. Maximilian reluctantly agrees to the new status quo in Italy, not wanting to fight another costly war alone against the Venetians and the French. War in Italy is finally over with the Papal States’ position in the peninsula vastly diminished, and France, Spain, and Venice left as the lords of Italy (i).

September: With peace in Europe now reached and the threat of Mamuk hostilities ceased, Loredan requests that the great Capitano da Mar Marco Maranazzo head south to Massawa to take up position as head of Venetian Red Sea operations. Here he will work closely with their Ottoman allies to choreograph the strategic building of forts and a joint new Veneto-Ottoman navy to eventually challenge the Portuguese. Ever the adventurer, Maranazzo obliges; his prestigious title of Capitano da Mar (decided by the Council of Ten to be kept for the Mediterranean fleet) is given to Andrea Gritti, and he is given the new title of Capitano d’Otlremare (ii). To avoid confusion of leadership, all Venetian ships stationed in the Red Sea will be part of the new Flotta da Mar Rosso, under the direct leadership of Maranazzo.

October: Kamaran, an island just off the coast of Yemen, is selected as the location for the second Venetian fort (iii). Jizan and Tagiura are to be further looked into as possible fort locations as well.

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(i): At this point most of the other city states were either directly or indirectly controlled by France and Spain, with Venice as virtually the only hold out.

(ii): I’m currently debating between Capitano d’Oltremare (Captain Overseas) and Capitano All’Estero (Captain Abroad). They both mean virtually the same thing; it’s just a matter of which the readers like better. Let me know!

(iii): Around the same time OTL Kamaran was selected as the location by the Ottomans to put a fort. With the accelerated war against the Mamluks ITTL this did not happen.
 
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I've had the same thing with a major rewrite of one of my things on the backburner. the Prologue expanded to 13 chapters. I'm rewriting again now to take into account that I switched to a completely different writing style at about chapter 20.

Despite the hassles of changes and the additions of new materials, it feels really good to reboot work that you can be thoroughly proud of. Makes it all worth it. Keep at it!
 
It looks the the Patriarch of Venice has already made an impression in Alexandria. Lets hope he will be able to change it. :p

On another note, with the Ottomans concentrating on Arabia and North Africa (and with a new alliance and partial help in the Spice Trade), will this mean for a different outcome in the Battle of Mohács?
 
It looks the the Patriarch of Venice has already made an impression in Alexandria. Lets hope he will be able to change it. :p

On another note, with the Ottomans concentrating on Arabia and North Africa (and with a new alliance and partial help in the Spice Trade), will this mean for a different outcome in the Battle of Mohács?

This will be one of the major turning points. I would like to see a different outcome, but it really would produce a host of butterflies throughout Europe.

For the timeline it would be easier NOT to change this, but also more interesting ...;)

I think that the Doge sends the great Maranazzo as far away as he can - hopefully an accident or severe illness befalls poor Maranazzo...
 
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(ii): I’m currently debating between Capitano d’Oltremare (Captain Overseas) and Capitano All’Estero (Captain Abroad). They both mean virtually the same thing; it’s just a matter of which the readers like better. Let me know!

I always wonder when you mention an Italian phrase in this TL whether or not it should be in Venetian (eg Capitànio da Mar, Capitànio d'Altromar). What do you think? Would the language's popularity have increased with the growth of the Republic? How big was it IOTL?
 
Despite the hassles of changes and the additions of new materials, it feels really good to reboot work that you can be thoroughly proud of. Makes it all worth it. Keep at it!

Oh aye. and really the second rewrite is mainly to create a uniform style.

As is, I've got Imperium Resurgam going atm which tends to suck up most of the non-Uni work time, so that rewrite's really low priority for now.
 
It looks the the Patriarch of Venice has already made an impression in Alexandria. Lets hope he will be able to change it. :p

Unfortunately not everything can go well for the republic! Old habits of European exceptionalism (especially from Italy) will be a headache overseas for a Venice that's trying to forge a purely Venetian national identity.

On another note, with the Ottomans concentrating on Arabia and North Africa (and with a new alliance and partial help in the Spice Trade), will this mean for a different outcome in the Battle of Mohács?

This will be one of the major turning points. I would like to see a different outcome, but it really would produce a host of butterflies throughout Europe.

For the timeline it would be easier NOT to change this, but also more interesting ...;)

Mohács has been a fun/challenging point for me to analyze over the last 3 weeks. As Richter says, it's an incredibly important in Europe and any deviation from it will cause horrendous butterflies. Then again, As Sketchdoodle points out, the battle may go differently just by virtue of the Ottomans being interested in successes further south.

I still haven't decided exactly what will change, if anything (many, many different possible scenarios though), but I agree that a different outcome would be quite interesting.

I think that the Doge sends the great Maranazzo as far away as he can - hopefully an accident or severe illness befalls poor Maranazzo...

This might not be the prerogative of the Doge necessarily, who will keep his tenure until death, but surely that of others in power. Maranazzo is a tricky case now, as he is admired by the people and has proven to be an incredibly capable commander. Any Venetian who wishes an ill-fate for him may want to do so after any altercations with the Portuguese, or Ottomans for that matter...

I always wonder when you mention an Italian phrase in this TL whether or not it should be in Venetian (eg Capitànio da Mar, Capitànio d'Altromar). What do you think? Would the language's popularity have increased with the growth of the Republic? How big was it IOTL?

Ah, I wondered if someone would call me out on it. Really I kept things in Italian for the ease of translation of both myself and the readers (it's easier to pop in an Italian title/phrase into translate than a Venetian one). Also, I don't know many of the translations from English to Venetian, but this is selfish on my part which I don't like.

Preferably I would like to make the translations into Venetian rather than Italian. ITTL just as IOTL Venetian was the major language used between the Venetian inhabitants at the time, so it would be in-keeping with the spirit of the TL.

I will go back and change what I can. Thanks.

As is, I've got Imperium Resurgam going atm which tends to suck up most of the non-Uni work time, so that rewrite's really low priority for now.

I completely get where you're coming from. This TL is currently suffering from the same dilemma...

I'm curious, Alex, as to what you thought of the solution to the Damietta question finally addressed in the last part. It seemed like the natural outcome to the situation. The Ptolmeic wold be no good to Venice if the entry and exit points could be easily cut off by the Ottomans (though obviously if hostilities ensued there'd still be nothing to actually stop them from doing so...). But at least this keeps things official and open even during times of strained relations.
 
I completely get where you're coming from. This TL is currently suffering from the same dilemma...

I'm curious, Alex, as to what you thought of the solution to the Damietta question finally addressed in the last part. It seemed like the natural outcome to the situation. The Ptolmeic wold be no good to Venice if the entry and exit points could be easily cut off by the Ottomans (though obviously if hostilities ensued there'd still be nothing to actually stop them from doing so...). But at least this keeps things official and open even during times of strained relations.

It seems to be the most logical response. The Ottomans would want to make sure that Venice is still going to put in their share, but Venice will want to make sure that they get a usable canal at the end.

Whether the agreement can last through more strained times on the basis of inertia and merchant interests is another question of course, but it's certainly feasible.
 
Well, if from one side the colonization of Massawa from an Italian power could sound obvious, nevertheless was the most logical consequence for the Venetians to settle an outpost on the Black Sea. Besides, Venice will be the second christian country after Portugal to approach the kingdom of priest John AKA Abyssinia... So, Ethiopian wank on the horizont (because if surely Venice colonized Eritrea, it will be in constant contact with Ethiopia, which surely should be more culturally, and economically affected as well)? Besides, a strong Ethiopia could be useful a day against the Ottomans...

"Capitano d'Oltremare" in my opinion should be used for the commander of the naval forces in Eastern Mediterranean (so including Alexandria, Candia and Cyprus); it could be retconnected with the French term "Outermer" which referred to the Crusader states. "Capitano all'Estero" could be more useful for the commander of the Red Sea sites and forces and other Indian Oceanic possessions, if for "abroad" we will consider in Venice's eye everything outside the Mediterranean ("Mare Nostrum", after all)...
 
Ethiopian wank on the horizont (because if surely Venice colonized Eritrea, it will be in constant contact with Ethiopia, which surely should be more culturally, and economically affected as well)? Besides, a strong Ethiopia could be useful a day against the Ottomans...

;)Well done. It's going to be interesting to watch.

"Capitano d'Oltremare" in my opinion should be used for the commander of the naval forces in Eastern Mediterranean (so including Alexandria, Candia and Cyprus); it could be retconnected with the French term "Outermer" which referred to the Crusader states. "Capitano all'Estero" could be more useful for the commander of the Red Sea sites and forces and other Indian Oceanic possessions, if for "abroad" we will consider in Venice's eye everything outside the Mediterranean ("Mare Nostrum", after all)...

The only trouble I have with that is the problems associated with having 3 commanders (though the trouble only really lies between the 2 in the Med). A major correction made ITTL from OTL is the effective centralization of Venetian forces. Through my research it seems this was a key reason for many of the republic's losses and shortfalls.

However with the new traffic generated from the Ptolmeic and the acquisition of Alexandria, it would be difficult for a "Capitano da Mar" in the Adriatic to effectively manage the entire Mediterranean fleet and its needs.

I think you're right, this command structure will be adopted shortly while effectively maintaining the right level of centralization. Thanks.
 
Part 20, In the Lands of Prester John

Late October: Maranazzo arrives in Massaua. He is content at the rate at which the new fort and its Arsenale is being constructed considering its distance from the homeland, which makes it difficult to get materials transported over; a problem, the commander knows, that will be resolved once the Ptolmeic Channel is completed.

Believing it crucial to befriend the local natives whose land his people now share, Maranazzo makes it his first order of business to invite the local Bellou aristocrats to dine with him in an act of friendship. Many of the Bellou, as well as the surrounding Beja people, are a mix of Christians and Muslims, though Christianity seems to be on the rise given the advances of mighty nearby Ethiopia (i). The native inhabitants are receptive to the Venetians; their Christian beliefs appeal to the local Christian majority, and their close friendship with the Ottomans appeals to the Muslim locals.

November: The various plans and the deconstructed Portuguese nau have been analyzed in Venice. The exceedingly capable Arsenale has no trouble copying and improving the current Venetian carrack into a perfect model of the Portuguese ship. It is a great development for the republic.

Further than just copying the nau, the Arsenale takes advantage of its weaknesses to turn the advantage into Venetian hands. It starts by capitalizing on the space wasted for cargo, fitting it instead with more artillery capabilities. The new models will range between 160-250 tonnes; the smaller versions maximizing speed, while the larger versions maximizing fire power through more cannon windows. They are put into production immediately.

December: Jizan and Tagiura are selected as the spots for the third and fourth Venetian forts in the region.

February, 1517: Pope Leo initiates a war with Urbino in an attempt to carve out a kingdom in central Italy for his nephew Lorenzo.

March: Work begins at Tagiura. The Venetians that arrive there report that the surrounding Adal Sultanate is descending into civil war after the Amir of the Sultanate was just recently killed by the Emperor of Ethiopia.

May: Nearly one year after its construction began; the fort at Massaua is almsot halfway to completion. Thanks to considerably warm relations with the locals and the arrival of more enterprising Venetian merchants eager to expand their trade network into Africa, the city has developed quite a robust micro-economy. This has sparked further development near the Venetian fort, culminating into a new port town there built in typical Venetian architecture when possible, given the local building materials. These include dry corals for walls, roofs, and foundations, as well as imported beams, window shutters, and balconies (ii).

The Venetians are certain that this sudden prosperity in its new base is thanks to this being the fabled land of Prester John, once believed to have ruled over a marvelous kingdom brimming with incalculable wealth and other exotic riches that could only be found in the Three Indias. They name the new city on Massaua Island “San Tommaso” after the Church of St. Thomas which it is believed the legendary presbyter presided over. Maranazzo arranges to meet with the Emperor (whom he actually refers to as Prester John himself) once the fort nears the final stages of completion.

July: Selim disperses an army of Ottoman craftsmen across the Red Sea to rebuild, maintain, and modernize existing forts now in his control in eagerness for the offensive against the Portuguese. The Sultan grows ever impatient for the time to come where he can strike, as his coffers run increasingly dry waiting for the Venetians to get their affairs in the Red Sea in order. Not wishing to lose the momentum of the powerful Ottomans, the Venetians agree to help finance some of the Ottoman fort rebuilding in the southern Red Sea.

September: The war with Urbino draws to a quick end with the expulsion of the duke and the triumph of Lorenzo. This war, however quick it was damages further the already greatly weakened Papal States. Brigandage and anarchy in the country is at an all-time high, and its finances are in ruin with the war costing 800,000 ducats.

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(i): All the maps of this region at this time showed the area around and including Massawa to be Christian. Further, the accounts of Francisco Alvares in the region in 1520 tell that Massawa (which he entered into Ethiopia from) was at that point controlled by the Christian Emperor in Ethiopia.

(ii): This is similar to what the Ottomans achieved there later in the century.
 
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There was no Kingdom of Aksum in the 16th Cent. nor had there for some time, although Massaua was near to the center of the old Aksum state. The name of the kingdom around Massaua in the 16th Cent. was Medri Bahri ruled by non-Bellou Tigranyi speakers. The Bellou of the area do seem to have been there since Aksumite times.
 
Just as a side-note, I realize that the parts have been getting more Veneto-centric lately, focusing almost exclusively on Venice and its relationship with the Ottomans. Just remember that these are being adapted from the original TL, so this is still very early in the big picture of things (technically I suppose the beginning of Act II). Some of the big butterflies are barely caterpillars at the moment so to speak. This thread will begin to encompass the histories of many nations of the world, but with the new detail-oriented format of this TL over the original it will just take a bit more time filled with a more intricate, detailed, and all around better story.

There was no Kingdom of Aksum in the 16th Cent. nor had there for some time, although Massaua was near to the center of the old Aksum state. The name of the kingdom around Massaua in the 16th Cent. was Medri Bahri ruled by non-Bellou Tigranyi speakers. The Bellou of the area do seem to have been there since Aksumite times.

My bad, I was looking at a couple of maps that suggested the name to be Aksum. I've made the edit to nearby Ethiopia. I will have closer research done for Africa in the future. Thanks.
 
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Still waiting for the moment when the Venetians finally traverse the Indian Ocean, but so far so good. :)

The Red Sea is a branch of the Indian Ocean, that's kinda close :p

I know, I'm excited to get into the Indian Ocean too but the appropriate foundations need to be set first. After all If you're going to do something, do it well... and preferably on the first try!
 
Hmmm, would you happen to plan an update on the scourge of Venetian merchants: pirates? The Mediterranean is far from secure despite Venice's headway in the East and it would be more interesting now that Venice has to deal with two types of pirates in different bodies of water.
 
Speaking of which, how would Hayreddin Barbarossa fare in this timeline? For what the guy did, he led a colorful (if violent) life.
 
Hmmm, would you happen to plan an update on the scourge of Venetian merchants: pirates? The Mediterranean is far from secure despite Venice's headway in the East and it would be more interesting now that Venice has to deal with two types of pirates in different bodies of water.

Speaking of which, how would Hayreddin Barbarossa fare in this timeline? For what the guy did, he led a colorful (if violent) life.

Pirates will definitely make their way into the TL with the opening of the Ptolmeic Channel. I haven't really thought about Barbarossa other than having him lead a rather OTL life, but with the different relations between Venice and the Ottomans his affairs may have some effects on the relations between Venice and its European neighbours Spain, HRE, and France, all in various degrees...
 
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