Is this TL dead?
I think you're being a bit premature. The OP last posted on the 12th.
That being said, I look forward to an update.
La Serenissima: Venice, Dawn of a New Power 2.0
- Thread starter Franciscus Caesar
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I think you're being a bit premature. The OP last posted on the 12th.
That being said, I look forward to an update.
Go for California! Venice must own all the beaches!Oh damn, I forgot about that.
Now let's see, New Zealand had some jade, but the Venetians could go just to China for that. Australia also had some semi-precious rocks and minerals, but they weren't found out until the colonialism gig went on it's full swing. There was an at-the-time misconception that the Terra Australis had some gold, but never enough to warrant full exploration. Tall trees for ship repairs can be found all over the tropics, and South East Asia is as exotic and cultured as the region could get from the Serenissima's point of view...
Oh well, it was a far-fetched idea anyway.
Oh yeah, how are the wars in the Indian Ocean affecting the Maldives? For such a low-lying country, the island nation is sure convenient for any ally playing the waters between Arabia and SE-Asia.
...any update?
Hey all,
Just a quick update, because you're entitled to one. As is obvious by now, this TL is on hiatus, unfortunately. Long story short, I'm incredibly busy at work and writing this AH consumes too much time. In order to ensure my focus is on work and work alone to effectively do my job, I've chosen to take a bit of a break, writing and adding only when I have totally free time. I'm opting for this approach so as not to have random an sporadic posting (worse than before lol).
I hope everyone understands. I'd like to ensure everyone that this TL is not dead, and that writing it is still a passion of mine, and something I very much look forward to. We will resume from where we left off, hopefully sooner rather than later!
I haven't read any of the comments since I last posted. I'll get to those when things resume here.
Grazie,
FC
Just a quick update, because you're entitled to one. As is obvious by now, this TL is on hiatus, unfortunately. Long story short, I'm incredibly busy at work and writing this AH consumes too much time. In order to ensure my focus is on work and work alone to effectively do my job, I've chosen to take a bit of a break, writing and adding only when I have totally free time. I'm opting for this approach so as not to have random an sporadic posting (worse than before lol).
I hope everyone understands. I'd like to ensure everyone that this TL is not dead, and that writing it is still a passion of mine, and something I very much look forward to. We will resume from where we left off, hopefully sooner rather than later!
I haven't read any of the comments since I last posted. I'll get to those when things resume here.
Grazie,
FC
Thoughts on the New World
Something about Spain's colonies:
While the spread of disease and its >90% casualty rate cannot, with this PoD, be avoided, Spain et al being in a position to "move in and take over" is IMO quite easily avoidable. The Natives numbered circa 50 million pre Columbus, compared to a contemporary Europe of around 30 Million IIRC. The conquistadores were basically private yokels who banded together with a bunch of friends and sailed west to get rich from the natives. Sort of like the Wild West. The early encounters on the mainland were quite bloody for the Europeans, and without a stunning success e.g. Cortes to prove that, yes, there's a crapton of gold in them hills, and yes, a few dozen rough and tumble Spaniards with guns can become governors, the enthusiasm for packing mustashioed adventurers like metal sardines and shipping them overseas is far diminished. This might slightly delay the introduction of new diseases- far fewer colonists and colonies limited to Africa style coastal trading posts means fewer vectors for disease to spread- once it takes off it'll spread like the plague and within a few centuries you're all but guaranteed 95% mortality.
This doesn't mean that the Europeans will be able to exploit this. The colonies only started pumping out silver around the 1560s or later, when they began systematically raping Potosi and the like with native slave labor. This brings up two important points- while in the long run the natives are doomed to near-extinction level death tolls, this is a multiple century decline and without imperial Europeans around to enslave the survivors and utterly erase any chance of a native culture/state revanchism they might come back for round 2.
More importantly you delay the influx of silver for at least half a century, impacting Spain's ability to finance e.g. war in the Netherlands. They're still a superpower, the gold/silver weren't bigger than Castillian tax incomes, but it definitely curbs their budget and places a bigger burden on the peasants. I expect the Netherlands to break away sooner, perhaps even under a Habsburg prince who breaks with Spain (IIRC this almost happened during the 80 Years War/30 Years War) and Protestantism does a bit better in Germany. Spain's italian ambitions are also curtailed, while they could probably keep Naples/Sicily Milan, ITTL with Spain weaker and Venice much stronger will probably have a shot at a different overlord, as the Pope, Venetians, French, Italians and maybe to an extent the Austrian Habsburgs would be loathe to let Spain dominate the peninsula. This likely butterflies or at least delays the Anglican Church. Does Milan end up under the French, Venetians, Pope, Florentines, independent, or some combination thereof?
As for the colonies, I imagine something like this:
the Caribbean is colonized, they were already established and sugar plantations on islands are relatively straightforward. The mainland repulses/eats the conquistadores, so it remains an "impenetrable jungle of savages" and for the most part the Europeans just set up a few trading posts and trade guns for gold. A few decades later, i.e. by the 1570s, the natives stop showing up regularly and eventually disappear entirely. Rumors of diseases wiping out entire villages and dwindling trade envoys give a story that the savages are dying out. A few explorers start going inland, find a post-apocalyptic nightmare, and move in after burying the bodies. They catch a surviving native or two and torturemad the location of gold/silver mines out of him, and within a decade or so the mines are up and running, in Spanish/Portuguese hands.
The lack of native population means that the slave trade starts much sooner and much heavier. Furthermore no New World Silver means the Spanish et al have a harder time making inroads with China.
This means that Indonesia and India, i.e. the Spice Trade, become even more important. Guess who has massive logistical and diplomatic advantages in this trade? Spain likely won't do as well, and ultimately I expect the Venice-Ottoman alliance to wage several (ultimately successful) wars to protect their hegemony over the spice trade. France likely does better, and England/the Dutch probably end up going to the New World sooner, as by the thime they're colonizing they've already heard about the gold mines of New Spain.
Something about Spain's colonies:
While the spread of disease and its >90% casualty rate cannot, with this PoD, be avoided, Spain et al being in a position to "move in and take over" is IMO quite easily avoidable. The Natives numbered circa 50 million pre Columbus, compared to a contemporary Europe of around 30 Million IIRC. The conquistadores were basically private yokels who banded together with a bunch of friends and sailed west to get rich from the natives. Sort of like the Wild West. The early encounters on the mainland were quite bloody for the Europeans, and without a stunning success e.g. Cortes to prove that, yes, there's a crapton of gold in them hills, and yes, a few dozen rough and tumble Spaniards with guns can become governors, the enthusiasm for packing mustashioed adventurers like metal sardines and shipping them overseas is far diminished. This might slightly delay the introduction of new diseases- far fewer colonists and colonies limited to Africa style coastal trading posts means fewer vectors for disease to spread- once it takes off it'll spread like the plague and within a few centuries you're all but guaranteed 95% mortality.
This doesn't mean that the Europeans will be able to exploit this. The colonies only started pumping out silver around the 1560s or later, when they began systematically raping Potosi and the like with native slave labor. This brings up two important points- while in the long run the natives are doomed to near-extinction level death tolls, this is a multiple century decline and without imperial Europeans around to enslave the survivors and utterly erase any chance of a native culture/state revanchism they might come back for round 2.
More importantly you delay the influx of silver for at least half a century, impacting Spain's ability to finance e.g. war in the Netherlands. They're still a superpower, the gold/silver weren't bigger than Castillian tax incomes, but it definitely curbs their budget and places a bigger burden on the peasants. I expect the Netherlands to break away sooner, perhaps even under a Habsburg prince who breaks with Spain (IIRC this almost happened during the 80 Years War/30 Years War) and Protestantism does a bit better in Germany. Spain's italian ambitions are also curtailed, while they could probably keep Naples/Sicily Milan, ITTL with Spain weaker and Venice much stronger will probably have a shot at a different overlord, as the Pope, Venetians, French, Italians and maybe to an extent the Austrian Habsburgs would be loathe to let Spain dominate the peninsula. This likely butterflies or at least delays the Anglican Church. Does Milan end up under the French, Venetians, Pope, Florentines, independent, or some combination thereof?
As for the colonies, I imagine something like this:
the Caribbean is colonized, they were already established and sugar plantations on islands are relatively straightforward. The mainland repulses/eats the conquistadores, so it remains an "impenetrable jungle of savages" and for the most part the Europeans just set up a few trading posts and trade guns for gold. A few decades later, i.e. by the 1570s, the natives stop showing up regularly and eventually disappear entirely. Rumors of diseases wiping out entire villages and dwindling trade envoys give a story that the savages are dying out. A few explorers start going inland, find a post-apocalyptic nightmare, and move in after burying the bodies. They catch a surviving native or two and torture
mad the location of gold/silver mines out of him, and within a decade or so the mines are up and running, in Spanish/Portuguese hands.The lack of native population means that the slave trade starts much sooner and much heavier.
Furthermore no New World Silver means the Spanish et al have a harder time making inroads with China.This means that Indonesia and India, i.e. the Spice Trade, become even more important. Guess who has massive logistical and diplomatic advantages in this trade?
Spain likely won't do as well, and ultimately I expect the Venice-Ottoman alliance to wage several (ultimately successful) wars to protect their hegemony over the spice trade. France likely does better, and England/the Dutch probably end up going to the New World sooner, as by the thime they're colonizing they've already heard about the gold mines of New Spain.9 years later, I have two things to say.
One, good job everyone who contributed.
Two, Is this Alt. History dead?
One, good job everyone who contributed.
Two, Is this Alt. History dead?
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