Downstate New York usually ends up joining the CSA but I don't identify with them at all and I'd prefer most anybody else (barring the insane authoritarians) to win.
Kaiserreich: Legacy of the Weltkrieg
- Thread starter RiverDelta
- Start date
Not disagreeing with your experience, as a lot of people say this, but it always surprises me - I’ve rarely seen the CSA win withiut player intervention since they added the Canadian intervention, which to me admittedly feels quite realistic. In my games, usually the AUS wins in my experience, because once they get some industrial states with their early qualitative advantage they really start to snowball.
Realistically would Canada even remotely have the capacity of fighting a far more industrialized and populated state that's right on the border of all it's major population centers without potentially collapsing themselves?
I seriously doubt Canada's capacity to be anything resembling a superpower.
The issue with this is Canada doesn't always intervene and if it does, it rarely has the troops needed to push the CSA. The AI has to manage a massive supply line in Canada, which does not have the infrastructure to handle it. Meanwhile, the CSA usually can hold or even push back the Canadians due with their lower amount of troops, better supply, and the fact the AUS is incompotent in the center. Everytime I play the PSA, I go on this megagrind against the CSA and rush as much as I can before the AUS falls and I have to deal with a East vs West situation.
It isn't helped by the fact that the CSA gets the biggest industry zones, most militias, and can get tank volunteers from the Commune and Union. Meanwhile the PSA can get Japanese volunteers and if the Entente don't join, mostly infantry divs that don't hold against tanks well. Its a stupid situation. Just the fact that the only way the CSA loses is if basically every nation on their borders declares war on them loses shows how stupidly powerful they are. Thats why I've always advocated for more CSA debuffs when it comes to their military. Realistically, there should be few men with high command experience joining them since their suppose to represent the lower classes.
Superpower hardly, but I'd argue that in almost all cases in the 20th Century, a decently equipped professional army (which Canada absolutely can field) can cut through the militias that seem to make the bulk of the CSA. For a real life example, look no further than the Spanish Civil War - though the Republicans started with the industrial centers of the country, including Madrid, the bulk of the Spanish Army's professional soldiers went over to the Nationalists - and the ragtag band of militias, despite having a larger overall strength at the start of the conflict (400,000 compared to about 150,000 in 1936 if you include gendarmes), were still crushed by the Nationalists.
Successful revolutions IRL - and in many cases, as with France and Britain, in Kaiserreich - succeeded because huge numbers of experienced combat veterans and radicalized officers defected to the revolutionaries, while the CSA gets a few competent commanders and a bunch of jumped up union guys, and hordes of enthusiastic volunteers. But enthusiastic volunteers, as real life so often proves, don't do much in the face of machine guns and properly coordinated defenses.
If the CSA can defend itself long enough for troops to gain experience, good officers to self-select into leadership positions, and the industrial heartland to get going, then yeah, there's not a lot Canada or anyone else can do to stop them. But in my own experience (including my most recent game), they rarely manage to make it that far and are usually the first faction to go.
Or maybe my game's AI is dumber than most or something, who knows. One thing I can certainly see, however, is that in the hands of a player, the CSA is by far the easiest faction to win as, but that's not really what I'm talking about.
This I do agree with - one possibility could be to have the "Red Guard Commander" trait act as a debuff instead of a boon, because realistically, these guys are just... random union reps who manage to organize a bunch of factory laborers into vaguely-coherent units.
I think the other problem isn't so much that the CSA gets no leadership debuffs - because it does - it's just that getting rid of them is way too easy to do in the first months of the war. The army focus tree is so easy to get through that you're usually fighting with leadership parity as early as 1939, when I feel like the Red Army shouldn't be able to do that until 1940 or early '41. And there's no real consequences to streamlining and centralizing the officer corps and rolling back the elected officers, which should realistically result in mass desertions and confusion for the first few months after the policy is enacted. One idea I have is for the decision to be "Keep the officers and keep the debuffs the whole war," or "remove the debuffs in the long run, but in the short run suffer a MASSIVE malus to organization and manpower as the Red Army proceeds to eat itself."
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And on that note, the CSA could also have an issue with over-promoted junior officers as well with how, even IOTL, Mikhail Tukhachevsky was given command of an entire field army at the age of 26 and commanded the Soviet invasion of Poland at the age of 27 being a notable example of this.
I wouldn't exactly call that a problem, given that Tukhachevsky is probably one of the best examples of how this policy actually works in the revolutionaries' favor in the long run. Some of the Soviets' best commanders were these overpromoted junior officers, since Tsarist policies kept actual talent locked behind a wall of aristocratic privilege. (Of course, a lot of that got squandered by Stalin and his killpeopleism in the thirties.) You see the same thing in the French Revolution after the really incompetent officers were weeded out; you wouldn't otherwise have people like Carnot, Augereau, Jourdan, Moreau, or especially Boney himself.
Maybe an early game malus could work, with it decreasing as you spend military experience in a decision tab like the Chinese factions have.
Following up on this, to make it more unique - I also had a thought that these decisions could also have a small chance of giving the player a really good general for free, to simulate the cream rising to the top of the muck, so to speak. But it has an equal cjance of giving you a lemon of a general - whom you can’t dismiss…
The CSA isn't really a "state" at the point where Canadian intervention would realistically occur. They're an insurrection fighting on almost all fronts (and if Canada intervenes, will be on all fronts) with no professional army (similarly to pretty much all the other civil war factions), local insurrections against them in pretty much any realistic scenario, a dearth of access to many resources (they have to pray they don't get disconnected from the sea and even then if they do they'll just get blockaded if Canada joins) and taking advantage of the 40 million or so people in CSA territory necessitates remembering that not all of them are going to be supportive of you, and even the ones that are aren't necessarily going to be partisans of the "I'm going to risk my life for this" category.
Canada doesn't have to be a superpower because in any realistic universe the CSA's vaunted "industrial and population" advantages that people always talk about can not realistically all be brought to bare the way the Steel Belt was by the US in WW2.
Especially as the same process of giving promotion opportunities for junior officers and NCOs who ordinarily wouldn't get such opportunities which gave the USSR Tukhachevsky and Zhukov also gave the USSR failures like Budyonny and Kulik, especially with how Budyonny and Kulik blocked much-needed reforms to the Red Army.
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Honest
That being said I could see the larger towns in Iowa being socialist havens, but rural areas, it depends. My area of Iowa in the northwest would either stay Republican with some AFP support, though I feel as if the AFP might not be as big on immigrants and there are lots of Germans and Irish and even Czechs and I feel like the two main parties might be the only option.
The same goes for Nebraska where I grew up. More than likely it gets swallowed up and probably mostly supports the PSA or feds but the AFP might make headway among some old Bryan style populists and the socialists would probably do well in Omaha if only due to meatpacking being a big industry.
I also feel like the Midwest would be the stronghold of a Unity Ticket as I could see progressives and more social Democratic types as well as moderates in both main parties support it. Plus Floyd Olson seemed like a solid guy though he still dies of cancer in kaiserreich.
I guess overall I’d personally like the PSA the most but I like playing as the CSA if only because it’s kind of fun.
Honestly, I’m not sure where I fit in. Iowa is considered a Socialist state. Honestly I feel like it’s only because in otl it was the quintessential swing state that from 88 until 2012 voted only once for a Republican ( though it was quite close in most races) and while it has some closer ties with Chicago and there was the Farm Holiday movement in the depression, Iowa doesn’t have the socialist or progressive bonafides like Wisconsin or Minnesota, and even the Dakotas and Nebraska have a bit more history with this as Nebraska was arguably the birthplace of Agrarian populism and the original Populist Party, while North Dakota had the Non-Partisan League, which like the Farmer Labor party in Minnesota merged with the Democrats. Even Oklahoma had a strong socialist party.
That being said I could see the larger towns in Iowa being socialist havens, but rural areas, it depends. My area of Iowa in the northwest would either stay Republican with some AFP support, though I feel as if the AFP might not be as big on immigrants and there are lots of Germans and Irish and even Czechs and I feel like the two main parties might be the only option.
The same goes for Nebraska where I grew up. More than likely it gets swallowed up and probably mostly supports the PSA or feds but the AFP might make headway among some old Bryan style populists and the socialists would probably do well in Omaha if only due to meatpacking being a big industry.
I also feel like the Midwest would be the stronghold of a Unity Ticket as I could see progressives and more social Democratic types as well as moderates in both main parties support it. Plus Floyd Olson seemed like a solid guy though he still dies of cancer in kaiserreich.
I guess overall I’d personally like the PSA the most but I like playing as the CSA if only because it’s kind of fun.
I think that highlights one of the unavoidable problems with the mechanics of KR's US Civil War. Specifically that states would not be monolithic, taking Illinois for example, it's the heartland of the CSA thanks to Chicago but Southern Illinois was also one of the major strongholds of the Ku Klux Klan meaning half the state will have very strong sympathies towards the AUS. The same can be applied to pretty much any state, for example New England is obviously opposed to the CSA but Boston was a major industrial city with a large unionised workforce in this era.
Exactly. It’s hard to put this in a game, but states are not politically contiguous and even then, you can have close elections but never win, so it underestimates the power of opposition parties.
This is kind of done in KR as you see news blips about certain cities having fights ug B I’mim between the AFP and socialists and feds , like St. Louis or Seattle or Philadelphia, even if such people don’t I police pool fb u cities are not under their control.
I think that in the lore there’s definitely an implication that the 2nd ACW is very much a brother vs brother conflict. Not to mention you’ll have minorities in a lot of areas flocking to an opposition party, if only because it’s the only place to go. Thus blacks in the South would be syndicalists, and I’m guessing Hispanics in Texas and the west might join them too, while in most cities with manufacturing you’d have a base of socialists.
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@chankljp
my KR cold war japan Starting National spirits
1 Bitter peace
The china war should have been quick and easy.it should have been a cake walk.if so,then why did we lose? Why is it at the end of the day, we had to negotiate with them? We concede Taiwan and recognize an independent Korea. We may have won against the Kaiser in South sea and establish protectorate over the kingdom of Hawaii ,but the china war is something no Japanese will ever forget
2 constitutional reform association
The constitutional reform association is a reformist party representing the Japanese establishment; it is a syncretic big tent party ranging from the Center left to the right, as well as to preserve the national polity. It was created by the conservative fusion of the members of the previous two parties of Rikken Minseitō and Rikken Seiyūkai into CRA. in the post national defense state political landscape the CRA aims to reform the Meiji constitution and establish civilian control of the military.
3 humiliated military
the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy had been completely humiliated by the china war with the Navy being humiliated by the infamous junk fleets of the NRA in the taiwan strait with the army being completely humiliated in Manchuria and Korea as well as unable to used to foot holds of the legation cities to fully push into china. however this is provides opportunity to reform the army and navy into a more efficient modern force as well as an opportunity to establish civilian control
4 co prosperity sphere
The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere was officially Formed at the Greater East Asia Conference in 1938. However, since our defeat in the second Sino- Japanese war and our subsequent loss of Korea and Taiwan. Our influence in the other members of the sphere has been waning and the Ministry of Greater East Asia or Daitōashō has become a Den of corruption in the empire To rectify it we must reform the organization or replace it with something new to be more responsive for the current era. particularly since Siam and the Philippines refused to join our war in china.
5 economic chaos
With the collapse of the National defense state came an economic depression that has ravaged the nation and has caused instability as well as the loss of corporations in Taiwan, Manchuria and Korea. We must stabilize the economy before we embark on other ventures, especially somewhere to make up for the loss of the Chinese market in our economy.
6 political crisis
The end of the national defense state has led to A political vacuum that is being filled by multiple new parties particularly on the left with the rise of new proletarian parties this has caused the establishment to form the CRA Led by Bukichi Miki. The current government is led by intern Prime Minister Prince Nobuhito leading a Imperial coalition cabinet with members from all parties of the diet; this has caused issues with social civilian-CRA proposed constitutional amendments or The Matsumoto amendments to The Constitution which has led to division in the diet over the amendments.
my KR cold war LKMT RoC Starting national spirits
1 xi’an pact
Currently the Xi'an pact is an informal Bloc Led by China primarily in the form of two bilateral alliances with Indochina and Korea, however it remains informal. for us to properly compete on the world stage we must reform it into A more formal organization either tighter, looser or something in between
2 Aftermath of the dai Li affair
The Discovery of dai Li ’s plot by Zhou Enlai and Li Shiqun As well as the subsequent purges and reorganization of the Zhōng tè jú into the Zhōng gé jú has led to the formation of new factions in the party in the form of the gexin and minben factions each with their own interpretations of the sanmin doctrine and wang Jingwei thought , as well as the rising prominence of the Youth league .However the party still follows the principle of the democratic centralization as such the central committee needs to be in agreement for policies to be fully enacted
3 International exiles
With the fall of the third international during the 2nd weltkrieg, The various former Government officials and parties from the former Union of Britain, French commune and Italian Socialist Republic Fled east to china,India and Indochina .In China The French set up shop in Shanghai while the British ended up in Hong Kong China also has the remains of the Red Russian community with the Russian communist party (b) based out of Harbin. The Italians ended up in guangzhou
4 agricultural society
The majority of our population is still agricultural however with Recent land reforms our agricultural efficiency has been approved and The peasants now own The majority of the land. Hopefully this will allow us to reform the Chinese economic structure and enable us to industrialize and permit the Chinese people to stand up on the world stage
5 integration of Taiwan
With the Retrocession of Taiwan, it has been necessary to begin the process of integrating Taiwan with The rest of the country. However there are difficulties with integrating the former Japanese colonial administration with our Government and getting the local elites to be favorable towards our party. we must act with care if we don't, we may face the possibility a revolt
6 Chinese syndicalist party
The CSP or Chinese syndicalist party has been our junior partner since 1925 as such it has been given special place within the National People's Legislative Yuan and Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference. currently the CSP Is unstable since the collapse of international with the chairman of the party Chen Duxiu and his Vice chairman Wang Ming arguing about directions The party should take within the national revolution, with Wang Ming leading the 28 Syndicalists who visited France and became inspired by neosocialism and Chen Duxiu leading the orthodox faction However both are under the opinion that Maximism and Mussolinism Led to weakening of the international. the CSP stability is important for the stability of the government
7 Legacy of the jiangfu revolution
Since the founding of the national revolutionary army in 1925 it has been an effectively ranklass army; this trait has been exaggerated With the failure of the first Northern expedition and creation of the jiangfu zone. while since 1936 NRA has professionalized it's currently still remains a ranklass army but The legacy of the jiangfu zone will Always remain with the NRA
my KR cold war japan Starting National spirits
1 Bitter peace
The china war should have been quick and easy.it should have been a cake walk.if so,then why did we lose? Why is it at the end of the day, we had to negotiate with them? We concede Taiwan and recognize an independent Korea. We may have won against the Kaiser in South sea and establish protectorate over the kingdom of Hawaii ,but the china war is something no Japanese will ever forget
2 constitutional reform association
The constitutional reform association is a reformist party representing the Japanese establishment; it is a syncretic big tent party ranging from the Center left to the right, as well as to preserve the national polity. It was created by the conservative fusion of the members of the previous two parties of Rikken Minseitō and Rikken Seiyūkai into CRA. in the post national defense state political landscape the CRA aims to reform the Meiji constitution and establish civilian control of the military.
3 humiliated military
the Imperial Japanese Army and Navy had been completely humiliated by the china war with the Navy being humiliated by the infamous junk fleets of the NRA in the taiwan strait with the army being completely humiliated in Manchuria and Korea as well as unable to used to foot holds of the legation cities to fully push into china. however this is provides opportunity to reform the army and navy into a more efficient modern force as well as an opportunity to establish civilian control
4 co prosperity sphere
The Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere was officially Formed at the Greater East Asia Conference in 1938. However, since our defeat in the second Sino- Japanese war and our subsequent loss of Korea and Taiwan. Our influence in the other members of the sphere has been waning and the Ministry of Greater East Asia or Daitōashō has become a Den of corruption in the empire To rectify it we must reform the organization or replace it with something new to be more responsive for the current era. particularly since Siam and the Philippines refused to join our war in china.
5 economic chaos
With the collapse of the National defense state came an economic depression that has ravaged the nation and has caused instability as well as the loss of corporations in Taiwan, Manchuria and Korea. We must stabilize the economy before we embark on other ventures, especially somewhere to make up for the loss of the Chinese market in our economy.
6 political crisis
The end of the national defense state has led to A political vacuum that is being filled by multiple new parties particularly on the left with the rise of new proletarian parties this has caused the establishment to form the CRA Led by Bukichi Miki. The current government is led by intern Prime Minister Prince Nobuhito leading a Imperial coalition cabinet with members from all parties of the diet; this has caused issues with social civilian-CRA proposed constitutional amendments or The Matsumoto amendments to The Constitution which has led to division in the diet over the amendments.
my KR cold war LKMT RoC Starting national spirits
1 xi’an pact
Currently the Xi'an pact is an informal Bloc Led by China primarily in the form of two bilateral alliances with Indochina and Korea, however it remains informal. for us to properly compete on the world stage we must reform it into A more formal organization either tighter, looser or something in between
2 Aftermath of the dai Li affair
The Discovery of dai Li ’s plot by Zhou Enlai and Li Shiqun As well as the subsequent purges and reorganization of the Zhōng tè jú into the Zhōng gé jú has led to the formation of new factions in the party in the form of the gexin and minben factions each with their own interpretations of the sanmin doctrine and wang Jingwei thought , as well as the rising prominence of the Youth league .However the party still follows the principle of the democratic centralization as such the central committee needs to be in agreement for policies to be fully enacted
3 International exiles
With the fall of the third international during the 2nd weltkrieg, The various former Government officials and parties from the former Union of Britain, French commune and Italian Socialist Republic Fled east to china,India and Indochina .In China The French set up shop in Shanghai while the British ended up in Hong Kong China also has the remains of the Red Russian community with the Russian communist party (b) based out of Harbin. The Italians ended up in guangzhou
4 agricultural society
The majority of our population is still agricultural however with Recent land reforms our agricultural efficiency has been approved and The peasants now own The majority of the land. Hopefully this will allow us to reform the Chinese economic structure and enable us to industrialize and permit the Chinese people to stand up on the world stage
5 integration of Taiwan
With the Retrocession of Taiwan, it has been necessary to begin the process of integrating Taiwan with The rest of the country. However there are difficulties with integrating the former Japanese colonial administration with our Government and getting the local elites to be favorable towards our party. we must act with care if we don't, we may face the possibility a revolt
6 Chinese syndicalist party
The CSP or Chinese syndicalist party has been our junior partner since 1925 as such it has been given special place within the National People's Legislative Yuan and Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference. currently the CSP Is unstable since the collapse of international with the chairman of the party Chen Duxiu and his Vice chairman Wang Ming arguing about directions The party should take within the national revolution, with Wang Ming leading the 28 Syndicalists who visited France and became inspired by neosocialism and Chen Duxiu leading the orthodox faction However both are under the opinion that Maximism and Mussolinism Led to weakening of the international. the CSP stability is important for the stability of the government
7 Legacy of the jiangfu revolution
Since the founding of the national revolutionary army in 1925 it has been an effectively ranklass army; this trait has been exaggerated With the failure of the first Northern expedition and creation of the jiangfu zone. while since 1936 NRA has professionalized it's currently still remains a ranklass army but The legacy of the jiangfu zone will Always remain with the NRA
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