Yes. I think Tirpitz failed to appreciate the limits of German naval power, her geography limits her ability to get to open water, her greatest opponents are France and Russia, her worst scenario is facing a RN blockade and at that time there was no way to impose one save with cruisers, a thing Germany could not achieve versus Britain who had not merely more ships but strategic bases at the world's choke points. The London Declaration would have cut Britain's greatest threat and actually opened the door for Germany to assert a "decisive fleet battle" as opposed to hoping to break a blockade. It is strategic tunnel vision for Germany to have let that limitation pass.
Kaiserreich a TL
- Thread starter Michel Van
- Start date
Yes. I think Tirpitz failed to appreciate the limits of German naval power, her geography limits her ability to get to open water, her greatest opponents are France and Russia, her worst scenario is facing a RN blockade and at that time there was no way to impose one save with cruisers, a thing Germany could not achieve versus Britain who had not merely more ships but strategic bases at the world's choke points. The London Declaration would have cut Britain's greatest threat and actually opened the door for Germany to assert a "decisive fleet battle" as opposed to hoping to break a blockade. It is strategic tunnel vision for Germany to have let that limitation pass.
Question:
Woodrow Wilson was re-elected as President in 1916 with Promise Not to Enter the War in Europe, four month later he declare War to Imperial Germany.
Without the Zimmerman Telegram, how realistic would be, that Wilson went for declaring War on Imperial Germany
How realistic would be if Capitol Hill start a Impeachment against president Woodrow Wilson ?
Woodrow Wilson was re-elected as President in 1916 with Promise Not to Enter the War in Europe, four month later he declare War to Imperial Germany.
Without the Zimmerman Telegram, how realistic would be, that Wilson went for declaring War on Imperial Germany
How realistic would be if Capitol Hill start a Impeachment against president Woodrow Wilson ?
Ludwig von Stieglitz
Banned
If germany wins ww1 there is no chance the French can advance into western Germany...there was not such a chance even in OTL, where they actually "won" the war.
I know, but my Scenario give small chance for France forces Attack West Germany (what include new Weapons systems) and certain General De Gaulle will use this and will be regardlessly toward civilians.
But he underlies bad timing and sooner as planned, facing Germans and others Forces who are extremely Pissed off...
Ludwig von Stieglitz
Banned
it is not about weapon systems...in otl after ww1 france had huge manpower gaps and much of her industry in a terrible shape.
ITTL, France must have suffered even greater losses, has much of her heavy industry (which is located in northeastern france) stripped off of her and most of her steel depots are in German hands...so, admitting the French invent some fantastical new weapons, where do they get the resources needed to develop them, then to build them and then again to man them?
Also if France goes radical they will get no help from the British, and they will find themselves locked without resources, without manpower and with a troubled colonial empire.
Finally De Gaulle being some sort of Rommel in reverse is a common AH clichè.
The return is that nobody knows about De Gaulle's abilities on the battlefield as he was mainly a political figurehead for free French forces. His involvement in the actual fighting was minimal, as he was just a junior member of the French general staff in 1940, and after that france was not a true power anymore
Thank you, Ludwig von Stieglitz.
I have deal with some of issue you mention, but that would be spoilers
Din't know that De Gaulle as "analog Rommel in reverse" is now a common AH cliché.
In TL De Gaulle has different career as OTL, but i can him replace him with other French General with more battle experience.
I have deal with some of issue you mention, but that would be spoilers
Din't know that De Gaulle as "analog Rommel in reverse" is now a common AH cliché.
In TL De Gaulle has different career as OTL, but i can him replace him with other French General with more battle experience.
It is my belief that Wilson wanted to grow America's power at the expense of Germany and in fact equal British strength or exceed it, his vision was a super power America. His 1916 Naval bill is a clear plan to build a Navy that can give the USA all the muscle it needs to act as it pleases. The campaign promises were just that, I believe he was looking to join the war and tip the balance, Germany falling opened the number two place for the USA and from there he could equal then exceed the British Empire. My argument is have Champ Clark run and win in 1912. Here the USA is more genuinely neutral and pursuing its rights as a neutral, this America is not going to stab Germany in the liver when she is in the last rounds of the fight. And you likely send the USA away from its rise to super powered hegemony.
De Gaulle is cut from the conservative side of France and in a Communist France I would believe he was shot be a Chekist. As a nod to Petain I toy with a right-wing France rather than the usual Communist France. The Third Republic is even more dysfunctional where France has lost the war and looks across the broken frontier at German A-L. I would entertain a French civil war or bitter analogue to Fascist Italy disgruntled by the war, communism, economic doldrums, etc. Here De Gaulle might emerge as a more clear cut French nationalist and restorer of french pride, once he leaves the Army and goes into politics he will wrestle with French decolonialism and the lingering cold war with Germany much the same but perhaps even less conciliatory.
After thinking true, Ludwig von Stieglitz and Michael West critic.
Would be better if De Gaulle goes in Exile to Switzerland once the Communist take over France ?
i had similar idea with Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, he is forced by communist into Exile, because he is aristocrat.
De Gaulle could return after Second Great War and give as leader the french pride back on nation, that literally is dismantle by German Empire and there Allies...
Little Spoiler
On French Military 1940s strategy, its called "Forces de combat automatisées"
Would be better if De Gaulle goes in Exile to Switzerland once the Communist take over France ?
i had similar idea with Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, he is forced by communist into Exile, because he is aristocrat.
De Gaulle could return after Second Great War and give as leader the french pride back on nation, that literally is dismantle by German Empire and there Allies...
Little Spoiler
On French Military 1940s strategy, its called "Forces de combat automatisées"
If you are creating a parallel to OTL Fall of France, here to communism, and a resistance then De Gaulle would make a better exile. I believe he was a nationalist at heart and a conservative in spirit, the interest for me will be if you have Imperial Germany liberate France from the evil grip of communism.
Its the Mechanic of Alternate History
When two tribes go to war, a point is all that you can score,
The loser rearms and try to score. Special France and Germany are perfect example for that, see the War of 1870, 1914, 1940.
Theoretical Germany and France would have be again in war 1968-73, was its not for Cold War and two politicians who had enough of there tribe goes to War: Charles De Gaulle and Konrad Adenauer...
Ideology play a important role in this Mechanic too
In this TL France lose the War in 1918 by surrendering (second time after 1870)
in political Chaos the French Communist, rise to power they want Revenge for loosing the two wars and demolish the Treaty of Potsdam (treaty of Versailles in reverse).
during there reign allot of French goes to Exile like Marcel Bloch(Dassault) , Antoine de Saint-Exupéry and now added Charles De Gaulle.
in alliance with Soviet Union they attack German Empire and Poland in 1941 (USSR leader want to export Communism by conquest).
and enrages the German Empire furiously...
And I do look forward to seeing you deal with this cycle, I have elected to break it by picking up the cold war analogue and leaving open more butterflies to change courses. I have toyed with everything from no USSR to a protracted East/West cold war where Imperial Germany becomes the USA, the only nation fully committed to see the thing through, more so because she is physically closer. In my thinking I have tried to find a place for De Gaulle, like all flamboyant personalities one wants to see them prominent despite our changes, and I have the fraying French Empire for him to meddle in. I have Adenauer build the CDU in my TL as a bridge between the Catholic and Protestant conservatives and to break the SPD dominance, I wonder if these two in your timeline unite to defeat communism in France?
Progress Report
I have written dozens post from 1906 to 1960s over Kaiserreich and try to get the bugs out.
i remove the Zimmerman Telegram from history
Also will the Middle East complete different as OTL because the Sykes-Picot Agreement never went to action.
For moment i spend the time on research on WW1 and other issue like German State Oil company in 1912.
I have written dozens post from 1906 to 1960s over Kaiserreich and try to get the bugs out.
i remove the Zimmerman Telegram from history
Also will the Middle East complete different as OTL because the Sykes-Picot Agreement never went to action.
For moment i spend the time on research on WW1 and other issue like German State Oil company in 1912.
For me, part of the lessons of the Great War should be the organization of the economy and preparedness for war. To that end I would expect more Germanization and centralization of industry, a German oil company being a high priority. Unlike a communist country the Germans work through private enterprise, elements of state ownership, cartel, bank control, still private yet beholden to the state. At home ensuring refining capacity, oil stocks and refined stockpiles, overseas securing concessions, but also dealing influence. I leverage the relationship with Standard Oil that occurred before and during the Second World War to map out a German-American relationship, adding likely good relations with the Dutch as well.
So I have Esso and Shell sharing the domestic retail market, owning refineries, investing in Germany. A domestic brand or two, the "state" oil company more involved in tank farms, pipelines, refining. I give it a 50% market share at minimum, giving Esso and Shell the rest. And I see Germany investing in America, mostly looking for production but likely a shareholder in Standard. IG Farben was a big shareholder so likely develops Standard's chemical business in partnership, a lot of cross pollination. In Ottoman concessions it is Germany who opens the door for the Americans, leveraging Dollars and expertise to expand German share inside the Arabian fields, looking beyond there for more places to keep Germany fueled. Having so little domestic oil might spur a German specialty in alternative fuels, fuel efficiency, nuclear power, and so on, oil always the Achilles heel.
This should expand into other strategic industries such as tires, chemicals, aluminum, and so forth. Relative to the USA Germany can have one or two big companies in any segment, but I am guessing many partnerships or at least presence in the USA. For me the British Empire is slightly hostile and more closed, the USA is friendlier since Germany bought in the USA during the war, building relationships and dependencies, American industry has a stake in German business so the incest is there. One might do this with a surviving Russia that is not a mortal enemy in addition to or in place of the USA. And I can see a potential relationship with China unless one has Japan side with Germany just to get on a different path. I have a switch as the KMT gets fully in control and outgrows the Germans, the Japanese seek the relationship as their connections with the British weaken. Shifting alliances and relations.
So I have Esso and Shell sharing the domestic retail market, owning refineries, investing in Germany. A domestic brand or two, the "state" oil company more involved in tank farms, pipelines, refining. I give it a 50% market share at minimum, giving Esso and Shell the rest. And I see Germany investing in America, mostly looking for production but likely a shareholder in Standard. IG Farben was a big shareholder so likely develops Standard's chemical business in partnership, a lot of cross pollination. In Ottoman concessions it is Germany who opens the door for the Americans, leveraging Dollars and expertise to expand German share inside the Arabian fields, looking beyond there for more places to keep Germany fueled. Having so little domestic oil might spur a German specialty in alternative fuels, fuel efficiency, nuclear power, and so on, oil always the Achilles heel.
This should expand into other strategic industries such as tires, chemicals, aluminum, and so forth. Relative to the USA Germany can have one or two big companies in any segment, but I am guessing many partnerships or at least presence in the USA. For me the British Empire is slightly hostile and more closed, the USA is friendlier since Germany bought in the USA during the war, building relationships and dependencies, American industry has a stake in German business so the incest is there. One might do this with a surviving Russia that is not a mortal enemy in addition to or in place of the USA. And I can see a potential relationship with China unless one has Japan side with Germany just to get on a different path. I have a switch as the KMT gets fully in control and outgrows the Germans, the Japanese seek the relationship as their connections with the British weaken. Shifting alliances and relations.
I work in similar way
in 1930s The King Edward VIII got enough of his Government and beliefe that they want to kill him, to put his brother George on Throne.
He trust the wrong kind of people like sir Oswald Mosley...
Now I look into early use of pump-action shotgun in WW1
the US Army introduce the pump-action shotgun Winchester Model97 Trench Gun in 1918
It was very effective that got nickname "trench sweeper"
France and Britain use double-barreled hunting shotgun, but to slow to reload in close combat compare to pump-action
its bizarre twist of fate, the Germans had all the time during WW1 a factory that build pump-action shotgun
The Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre aka FN Herstal in Liege build the Browning Auto-5 pump-action shotgun.
but German never got the idea to use it, they even consider this weapon as violation of the 1907 Hague Convention on Land Warfare...
I have read that Edward VIII did not want to be King and thought his brother would make a better King, I feel he loved being a Prince, no one tells you what to do and you have no responsibilities. He could womanize and party, drink champagne and fly his plane. for me, without an America in WWI, the flood of Americans to Europe is cut off, with a neutral UK the atmosphere in London is very different. I question if Ms. Wallis Simpson makes the social scene or meets Edward, he might find another spouse or as I think possible be a bachelor King. It should become the low point of the British monarchy. Obviously he can't be a Nazi sympathizer since they are not here but he might be racist, autocratic and immature, likely abusing his power to date married women and over spend.
The Germans are a bit weird like that, a shotgun to them was illegal but a flame thrower was not. You need them to find the legal loophole that it is not banned, a thing I can honestly see the Germans position on, unfortunately they have less experience with shotguns than does the USA who cares not about the technicalities. For me it takes combat in China with American influences to introduce the shotgun to German infantry, nd then it might not be until the Germans send advisers and troops to DEI once independence gains traction (my German Vietnam analogue). But with a shotgun there might be no Sub-Machinegun?
in my TL Edward VIII is Marry and later Ms. Wallis Simpson makes the social scene and meets Edward
you see the scandal coming ?
the assassination attempt on Edward VIII in 1936 is turning point
you see the scandal coming ?
the assassination attempt on Edward VIII in 1936 is turning point
Also the use of poison gas on Battlefield, both gas and flame thrower are a violation of the 1907 Hague Convention on Land Warfare.
just delay, there were development program for Sub-Machinegun during WW1
Yes I do. Do you accept the argument that he was incapable of producing children? I do so it leaves open the reign of Elisabeth, just for me sometime in the 1970s. Likely long past the time to truly salvage the monarchy's image.
Indeed, the Germans could be very scrupulous on one hand and scurrilous on the other. Truly lawyers!
I have to take Time out on working on this TL
for next 4 weeks i do education for my New Job,
i hope to have more time in July/August
for next 4 weeks i do education for my New Job,
i hope to have more time in July/August
Finally some time to deal with my TL
Here is map of Important Frontline that will play role in TL for decisive victory for German Army
based on this Discussion on AH.com
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/alternate-kaiserschlacht.445686/
Here is map of Important Frontline that will play role in TL for decisive victory for German Army
based on this Discussion on AH.com
https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/alternate-kaiserschlacht.445686/