Kaiserreich a TL

[MichaelWest]

While I do not believe in the "Great Man" theory, one cannot deny that certain individuals play pivotal roles in history and they alter events, being in their own way a POD. I think Mussolini is one of those characters, certainly important in altering the destiny of Italy and in other ways influencing Europe as a whole. His Fascist movement was created against a backdrop but in its own way simply cut from whole cloth by his own grandiose vision. If you have an Italy involved in the Great War and not gaining much but incredible numbers of dead and big debts then I think you give Mussolini his opening. Unlike Communism, Fascism inserted itself into the old institutions to subvert them to a new order rather than replace them in a revolution. I think an alliance with the Monarchy and Church was part of how Fascism stood differently capable of taking control of Italy and holding power for so long. Recall that the Fascists arrive in 1922 and only get rooted out as the was is being lost, minus that I think the Fascists could hold power longer as we saw in Franco's Spain and the similar government of Salazar in Portugal. Without the Nazis in Germany and the very ideological Second World War you certainly could have Fascism be the dangerous beacon for the far-right.

Thus I can see the Kaiser's Germany aligning with Fascist Italy to rebuild the Triple Alliance and influence the Mediterranean. The stumbling block would be any surviving A-H and how Germany is aligned with the surviving OE (assuming these at all). Italy was aligned with the British and dependent upon them, but if Libyan oil is developed that connection would weaken. Libya puts out enough oil to either make Italy independent or give it a lucrative export position, I think it splits the difference. Mussolini's ambitions for an Empire in Africa puts him on a collision course with the British and to an extent the French. Ethiopia and Somalia are his natural first steps, he likely wants Tunisia and any pieces he can add to Libya from Chad or Sudan. His naval build-up will worry the British too. I think he is bound to help Franco and promote Fascist regimes wherever he finds them. In this world I see the 1930s and 1940s seeing a loose right-wing block on the Southern tier, it might get many props from the UK at first to position versus still potent Germany here but in time I think it shifts to Germany's favor. This is what intrigues me of a multilateral post-war environment and potentially "cold war."

 

[Michel Van]

Mussolini's ambitions for an Empire in Africa puts him on a collision course with the British and to an extent the French. Ethiopia and Somalia are his natural first steps, he likely wants Tunisia and any pieces he can add to Libya from Chad or Sudan. His naval build-up will worry the British too.

Not only them but also the GERMAN EMPIRE (No A-H and OE in this TL they implode after 1918)
One: Tyrol, what Mussolini consider part of Italy, next to that the German Empire border DIRECTLY to Italy, what give Mussolini some nightmare
Second: Africa expansion desire of Mussolini, will German Empire consider as threat for "Mittelafrica"
Third: Mussolini Naval build-up will worry also Emperor Wilhelm II

So during interim period between WW1 and WW2
Mussolini must made diplomatic balancing act to preventing the Germans getting angry, very angry...

In TL happen a event, were Italy offer the German Empire a discovery,
that change over time the relationship between Italy and German Empire

 

[lukedalton]

Not only them but also the GERMAN EMPIRE (No A-H and OE in this TL they implode after 1918)
One: Tyrol, what Mussolini consider part of Italy, next to that the German Empire border DIRECTLY to Italy, what give Mussolini some nightmare
Second: Africa expansion desire of Mussolini, will German Empire consider as threat for "Mittelafrica"
Third: Mussolini Naval build-up will worry also Emperor Wilhelm II

So during interim period between WW1 and WW2
Mussolini must made diplomatic balancing act to preventing the Germans getting angry, very angry...

1) - Tyrol is more a strategic issue than a true irredent claim; the principal reason the italian goverment want it is due to how easy is to defend...an argument extremely important if your neighbourg is called Germany

2) - Relatevely, if Italy keep is colonial empire is not a direct menace to Mittelafrika...even because his territory are considered more or less useless; Libya also need to be reconquered and till the mid '30 oil is not even thought to be there. So before Italy can be considered a menace some time need to pass (expecially if between Paris and Rome there is the issue of Tunisia)

3) - Regia Marina was more a localizated menace aka built to operate in the Mediterrean (but there were some attempt to create ships with more long legs like the Caracciolo class)

 

[MichaelWest]

If you have A-H dissolve then I think it is a split into rump Austria and surviving Hungary, perhaps they support an independent Bosnia, and I assume you let the Poles and Ukrainians go to the new nations of Poland and Ukraine, that leaves the Czechs to become a tiny kingdom or to stay with Austria. I am uncertain if Austria joins with Germany here or if they are wanted by the Empire. But if so I tend to think it might be as the Arch Duchies and maybe Bohemia as a fifth Kingdom. I think the Hapsburgs take the Hungarian crown and relinquish the "Austrian" crown(s) to make a union work. But my understanding of the inner workings of such a thing is rather superficial.

Thus as to (1), if the Austrian rump joins Germany then Italy will have a new "enemy", Germany will likely yield not a square centimeter to the backstab Italians. Tyrol is only subject to being surrendered if Germany and Italy secure a true alliance and Germany fears no treachery, a hard sell if Italy fails to honor the Triple Alliance.

(2) I do not think Italy threatens German colonial status or expansion, I do not think German gets much more than some pieces, mostly from France, possibly the split of Portuguese colonies, maybe some Spanish pieces as Spain unravels. I think it takes the Fascists to get Italy in control of Libya, without them Italy might lose interest and never gain real control. Indeed if the OE survives then Germany might aid her attempt to regain such lost places as Libya.

(3) If Germany is allied with A-H or has taken the rump and gets access to the Adriatic then Italy is really just another naval rival. Italy is only building a bigger fleet for prestige so if no Mussolini then I doubt they get into the race. Italy is capable of being a serious regional power, if they align with the UK they can stay a real power but only as a British ally. I tend to think along that line, Italy is a British pawn, vassal and pilot fish, hoping to step up on her own, and that is where she might reunite with Germany. Thus tell me how Germany and the British get along post-war?

In my still formulating thoughts I have the Western front end rather like Korea, a stalemate, an armistice, the peace treaty takes years to hammer out, it is maybe the 1930s before a lasting peace is founded and territory is returned. A-L becomes a new German state with Luxembourg (I have no invasion of Belgium so nothing there), and the East becomes German dominated new countries aside from the Baltic states that might become German vassals, except the Lithuanians who are made independent like Ukraine and Poland and Finland. My SDP dominated coalition hates (Russian) communists so the peace with the USSR is shakier. I have Germany trading heavily with the USA and then China, expanding into Latin America and rebuilding ties to the British. It is very frosty with France.

As an aside if the OE falls apart then I suspect Germany will demand some parts too, or at least recognition for its concessions if not at minimum compensation. I would not under estimate that Germany knew the potential for oil in Mesopotamia and they would not simply give away that strategic necessity. I have Germany gaining all the oil rights in the OE, it gives them a strategic leg up versus Britain, and since Germany is economically weak they partner with the American oil companies to form a lasting German-American oil cartel with the Dutch through Shell bridging between them and Anglo-Persian. Obviously I think the OE wages war to reassert control over the Arabian peninsula and the Islamic faith, say goodbye to the Wahhbist interlopers.

 

[Michel Van]

hi guys Here first map about Europe after ww1

Explanation:
The east border to USSR is defined by Peace treaty of Brest-Litowsk of 1917, based on East front line in mid 1917.
Austrian Hungary and Ottoman Empire collapsed in member states.
From West to Ost
Republic of Irland become nation in 1922 (for moment indecisively for me, if north Ireland remain British)
Federal state of Belgium (protectorate of Flaanders and Tribut state of Wallonia) expanded with parts of France and move westwards.
Republic of Outremeuse become nation in 1926 (too small to see on map)
German Empire, incorporated Luxemburg, the German speaking Austrian nations and controlled the German speaking protectorates in East (grey spots)
Protectorate of Czech, the Kingdom of Poland, Lettland and Curdland, Galicia
Slovakia, Kingdom of Hungary (much to there problem they have allot German speaking protectorates of german Empire)
Kingdom of Bulgaria gain allot territory during and after WW1, they benefited form collapse of Ottoman Empire.
it indecisively for me, keeping Yugoslavia or balkanzied it.
Kurdistan they benefited that turks fight the Bulgarians who conquer west turkey and regain west Konstantinopel.

 

[MichaelWest]

With the USSR in place I assume peace in the East was as difficult to negotiate, I am interested in how the upper Baltics were not set free, what becomes of Finland and how the Ukraine fell back into the Soviet orbit. For my part I have all these divorced from Russia and the Ukraine hit harder by a civil war in which both A-H and Germany can commit troops, at worst I think Ukraine gets split into a Western "independent" state and an Eastern Soviet Republic.

Does your Galicia include more of the area of "White Russia" and is it an Austrian domain or rump White Russians from the lost civil war?

My thoughts would be that Northern Ireland is going to remain in the UK, it is a steep climb to get a united Ireland where the Irish pursue independence versus autonomy through Home Rule in this near term.

This Belgium will be an ugly fault line in Europe, I think it develops into this timelines cold war and "Iron Curtain" as France and Germany retrench into mutual antipathy. Might we see the French building the Maginot line and Germany its West Wall to secure a divided Europe?

Do the Germans wrestle the German King back on the throne of Greece and push the French from the Balkans? Here Italy should become invaluable to the Anglo-French. Germany now inherits much of the antagonism from Austro-Italian relations, winning an insecure détente to the South.

I would think even with a split Hungary is going to remain an ally of Germany so would not the German populace in Hungary be amenable to being citizens in the Kingdom of Hungary? And I would think Slovakia remains part of the Kingdom here. The tricky one is the Czechs. Best case they negotiate an independent and strictly neutral path akin to Switzerland, landlocked between Germany and Hungary they will need to fly low to stay independent.

This might become an unruly Bulgaria after gaining so much and absorbing this much, interesting development.

I would think that a Yugoslavia if formed is going to be solidly Croat led rather than Serbian and a vassal of Germany with strong ties to Hungary. Slovenia might simply go independent and give Germany access to the Adriatic. The other path is to have Hungary dominate the Serbs and hold the Croats, again Slovenia is independent and a more clearly German satellite. Dalmatia becomes something Germany can give Hungary in exchange for Slovenian "independence" and German pieces otherwise Hungarian like Pressburg or such.

A wise move would be for Germany to sponsor the Kurds in a crumbling OE, they could get Germany the oil in northern Iraq and threaten Persia, but that is some higher order chess playing for these Germans. Defend the ethnically Turkish areas to become "Turkey" so as not to lose everything, let the French and British steal pieces and gain nothing but enemies, then promote the revanche that rips away the British hold on the Middle East. You are steering the Germans and British into another war over oil sometime around the late 30s or 40s.

I look forward to how you got here and where it goes next.

 

[Michel Van]

Like i say the East border is defined by on East front line in mid 1917. here German High Command just give up there Targets in order to Win in West.
So Ukraine never got liberated in WW1 and this form a "Iron Curtain" between West Europe and Former Russia
Galicia is mix of piece Ukraine, ukrainian remains of A-H, not near at Withe Russia.

France is under Treaty of Potsdam, analog of Treaty of Versailles dictate by Germany, No aircraft, no Tanks, no the Maginot line
in fact one of plans the Germans had was a Demilitarized zone along Belgium and German border on french Territory.

I not knew about "German" king of Greece, interesting that could put things movement for post war 1920s
special Italy who after War is frustrate and biliously toward the Anglo-French "you pull us in this senseless War !"

I would think even with a split Hungary is going to remain an ally of Germany so would not the German populace in Hungary be amenable to being citizens in the Kingdom of Hungary?

Here the more influential "Alldeutsche" play a role, the right wing politicians wanted that ALL germans are under one German Rule,
Under Treaty of Potsdam the small pieces of German speaking part, become Protectorates of German Empire

This Yugoslavia (if i form it in this TL) is NOT dominated by Serbs, Serbian size reduce to one half of pre-war, the Bulgaria rule the other half in this TL and Serbia will get smaller in TL future (1941)

A wise move would be for Germany to sponsor the Kurds in a crumbling OE

I have no information if German Empire had plans for that, looking true data, it seems the Empire had other top priorities
East Europe, Belgium, France and "Mittelafrika"

 

[MichaelWest]

Pro-German King. My typo.
I have Ukraine independent to level USSR with Germany, the USA has greater wealth but no military power beyond its Navy and even that might fade as things evolve.
I chose to keep the Pan Germanists a fringe group but if my A-H splits then the crisis is absorbing all those Catholic Germans and Red Vienna! And what to do with the Hapsburgs? Kingdom Bavaria here allied with Austrians are about equal to the Prussians. Complicates the internal politics.
I have France on the slow rot of fading Empire and loss of great power status. Overall I keep things less certain and more fluid. Thank you for sounding my ideas, it is a complex thing to redo 100 years of history.

 

[Michel Van]

Update:

Good news: i start to write the first posts on TL
Bad News: also on a Space TL, original planned short one it become full-grown big TL.
what delayed my work on "Kaiserreich a TL"

Other Progress:
look in option to make Heinz Kissinger diplomat and Advisor for Emperor Louis Ferdinand I.
and it fit very good

I have decided to use a old draft about Hitler for this TL
yes, i know original i had Idea to kill him in WW1, but that nowadays consider a cliche or dead horse trope.
the Draft on other way had some problems with background of What Germany it would fit in best.
now using the surviving Kaiserreich could fit it better, but need some rewrite some parts.
But it would give some new twist on Hitler: The crime boss of Germany or the Real Dr. Mabuse.

 

[MichaelWest]

Update:

Good news: i start to write the first posts on TL
Bad News: also on a Space TL, original planned short one it become full-grown big TL.
what delayed my work on "Kaiserreich a TL"

Other Progress:
look in option to make Heinz Kissinger diplomat and Advisor for Emperor Louis Ferdinand I.
and it fit very good

I have decided to use a old draft about Hitler for this TL
yes, i know original i had Idea to kill him in WW1, but that nowadays consider a cliche or dead horse trope.
the Draft on other way had some problems with background of What Germany it would fit in best.
now using the surviving Kaiserreich could fit it better, but need some rewrite some parts.
But it would give some new twist on Hitler: The crime boss of Germany or the Real Dr. Mabuse.

Of course you know my intent to have Germany get out front in space so I look forward to seeing how you get there.

I wonder if Kissinger would still develop an attachment to Realpolitik in a world without WWII and the Holocaust, but it might be interesting to see him remain in Germany and pop up. I can see Germany helping the Dutch hold on to the East Indies, a parallel to Vietnam, or wade into the Congo to support Belgium (I have no invasion so Belgium gravitates to Germany). Now that has Heart of Darkness directly in the script.

My thinking is that Hitler developed his interest in politics as an informer during the post-war threat of Bolshevik revolution, one could argue he was a rogue agent provocateur, something I often ponder about Stalin, if they might have never gone on as they did if the regime had survived, so I wonder if Hitler returns to A-H or tries to stay on in Germany. The Kaiserreich should be against Pan-Germanism and might still be suppressing Volkish parties/movements who likely never get beyond debating clubs with an intact elite. He might find more fertile ground in the more tense Austrian political arena where ethnicity and religion are going to be hot button topics, more so if you let A-H begin to crumble, or have it split. For me Hitler is a forceful personality who might still vocally agitate for hate but he might simply fade to nothing in these ridiculous little fringe political clubs, a sort of wraith in the background, so perhaps Hitler injects his brand of extreme German nationalism into A-H's politics instead, that is where I have him "struggling" to make the "Empire" great. My own thinking is seeing Mussolini be a mere corrupt politician with crazy far-right ideas, but Fascism is just a scheme and never holds power. That should curb the Nazis a bit.

Add to this that anti-Semitism should be more background and overtime less socially acceptable thing in surviving Kaiserreich. Rather like 1950s America, not truly inclusive, still discriminatory but the Great War Jewish veterans had hurt the stereotypes and I would hope continue to solidify the Ashkenazi hold on Jewish assimilation as simply Germans. As an aside I wonder how much this dampens the Zionists, strengthens Yiddish and as I understand the Ashkenazi were more secular leaning so Judaism itself may look quite different longer term. German Jews might become virtually invisible in the way German-Americans have. We could imagine Kissinger rising to political influence with the left-leaning Liberals, either faction or stand-alone party, it is not too dissimilar from the moderate Republicans he ran with here, and that group had strong Jewish support. In this Germany just as many Jewish people are associated with middle-class "libertarian" politics as far left, i.e. Rosa Luxemburg. In deed I have thought there will be no revolution here so the Spartikists might endure as one of the more potent "communist" parties, especially if 1917 is butterflied, they should dominate the far-left and be a constant thorn to the SPD, tugging Germany leftward but in a world without the model of armed revolution. Should be some strange political battles.

 

[Michel Van]

your right, MichaelWest
The Communist will play in end of 1930s a important role in Germany (but more info are Spoilers)

On Hitler he was a Bavarian Centric Austrian, he emigrated to Bavarian prior to war.
His last assignment from Bavarian Army was to infiltrate a obscure communist party called DAP in Munich, rest is History
In this TL Hitler popup in 1920 as business Men called A.Wolf a facade for his crime empire.

Like i say there will be NO Holocaust in this TL
The Jews in German Empire have better assimilation, while France become anti-Semitism hell hole in 1930s.
most french Jews will emigrate to Belgium, Netherlands, German Empire, the USA and a very few (the Zionists) travel to palestine
seems i got no Israel in this TL, mean a more peaceful middle east ???

 

[MichaelWest]

your right, MichaelWest
The Communist will play in end of 1930s a important role in Germany (but more info are Spoilers)

On Hitler he was a Bavarian Centric Austrian, he emigrated to Bavarian prior to war.
His last assignment from Bavarian Army was to infiltrate a obscure communist party called DAP in Munich, rest is History
In this TL Hitler popup in 1920 as business Men called A.Wolf a facade for his crime empire.

Like i say there will be NO Holocaust in this TL
The Jews in German Empire have better assimilation, while France become anti-Semitism hell hole in 1930s.
most french Jews will emigrate to Belgium, Netherlands, German Empire, the USA and a very few (the Zionists) travel to palestine
seems i got no Israel in this TL, mean a more peaceful middle east ???

So far I have unraveled history to likely end the war by late 1916 or 1917 at latest, Russia seeks peace as early as fall 1916 so I am stuck with no Bolshevik regime and no Soviet Union so revolutionary communism is never given life inside a great power, the communists in Germany are not truly revolutionary and no Spartikist revolt, rather a walk out and boycott. The entire Red Scare is muted. As I see it the Centre and Centre-left coalition of Zentrum, Democrats and Socialists will hold power in the Reichstag, opposed by the communists, Conservatives and Liberals, the Conservatives are dominated by the traditional landed elite. But the majority should be narrow enough that the political situation is rocky.

Then perhaps I will make Hitler a corrupted and disgraced secret police mole, a footnote in the DAP, that little Bavarian gang of beer swilling braggarts who indulge in vile racist fear mongering, stealing their funds, agitating for a coup and caught in a scandalous relationship with a relative. He dies inn prison from complications of untreated syphilis. A disgrace to the Army.

Well we do tend to touch upon the Holocaust often but it a significant change, not only for Germany but perhaps ore importantly for the Pale, Poland, Ukraine, etc., and I think it must be considered. Vienna and Berlin are large German Jewish cities, but there are others and many Jews fled Eastern Europe or Russia to them as Russia went through its Progroms. Anti-Semitic prejudice and violence have a long history and wide touch across Christian Europe. But I also must factor the other victims, t began with Aktion T4, the extermination of the disabled, German children, it included Roma and homosexuals, it likely was to go on towards all Slavs. So instead I look at pictures of African soldiers who fought in the Great War for Germany, the Jewish veterans who served disproportionate to their numbers, I wonder how eugenics is not fully disgraced and how Germany might wrestle with having a progressive gay community in Berlin, African subjects and Jewish heros. Not the usual tropes for Germany.

Vichy shows us that France does not need to fall communist, it has a strong rightist tradition, the Dreyfus Affair shows that France had is own hatefulness, so I too pondered a reactionary France, more Petain or DeGaulle, ultra-nationalists rather than Fascists. I am still pondering. I would suggest your French Jews go to the colonies, I do not think that France would be more than hostile in public, more private discrimination, less visibility in places that are "French" like Paris, but out in the provinces or colonies? I think the French fall far short of violent persecution. Since my Germany retains Alsace-Lorraine, there is a French minority to be dealt with. And I think Germany must wrestle with the Polish minority too, especially with a new independent Poland. My Germany is just a little more multi-cultural. I am pondering a much bigger Chinatown in Berlin.

My Great War its without Britain as a belligerent and the war has not widened to the Ottomans. Balfour may promise to support Zionism but I think there will be no Palestine let alone Israel. The Arabs are vassals of the Ottomans. Germany remains a peer player in affairs there, a minority partner in Ottoman oil. Arabian should see more tribal infighting, the Ottomans might assert themselves against the British encroachments, and the big US oil companies are not there to help Anglo-Persia reap the profits.

I am looking very hard at Japan, it might not quite get to the same expansionism or go to war in China, the Pacific War had roots that go back to 1905, but Tsingtao set in motion a lot. I am uncertain if it falls here since the British are merely hostile neutrals. Britain and Japan are far more threat in the Pacific so the USA has a different set of fears.

 

[Thomas1195]

the communists, Conservatives and Liberals

there were two Liberal Parties in Germany, the bigger one (Democratic Party) was on the left.

Also, how would British politics look like ITTL?

 

[Michel Van]

MichaelWest, My timing is much worst
The Bolshevik Revolution is successful in June 1917 and in autumn the Germans must rams true French Font lines with all they got from East front.
Check Wikipedia it got some interesting details about "the Little annoying Austrian" special about time in Bavarian Army were some of his comrades suspected he is a homosexual ! (a reason to dishonorable discharge from Bavarian Army)

there were two Liberal Parties in Germany, the bigger one (Democratic Party) was on the left.
Also, how would British politics look like ITTL?

That's the Fortschrittliche Volkspartei (FVP) aka The Progressive People's Party in english
they are Liberals in Empire, there goals structural reforms in Empire, a new local elections law, the separation of Church and State, free trade, a progressive taxation, as well as safety, health, and welfare of people at work.
very Important party during WW1

And there also Nationalliberale Partei (NLP) aka National Liberal Party in english
They were right-wing liberals there goals consolidate the German Empire and support it transformation to modern Industry state
They support the Protestant Liberals bourgeois and industrials Grand Burgher of Empire


On British politics
For the moment while i write the TL there not much Change in UK politics after 1918 and follow 1920s
but i have some idea for 1930s but i have to reason those concept and there outcome for this TL
if the ideas work the 1940s and today TL of Britain could radical different as OTL

 

[MichaelWest]

there were two Liberal Parties in Germany, the bigger one (Democratic Party) was on the left.

Also, how would British politics look like ITTL?

I roughly keep the left and right leaning Liberal parties, I am uncertain if they might re-unite to become more than a mere coalition partner or remain divided into two camps, I think they roughly share the same economic goals but differ on the social agenda as well as a vague difference in top down or bottom up to get things done. I try to keep things very text-book generic until I settle on details, thus I try to talk Centre, Centre-left, communist, Right, etc., these parties as well as the electorate will be in flux over the post-war period so I let them be more blobs open to shifts.

My current thinking is that the war opens in 1913 over Albania, more clearly a Russian aggression, A-H stumbling in the Balkans and Germany caught in the middle hoping to secure its strategic position, France is more reluctant but just as determined to avenge 1870, the British are not as committed and Germany is forced into a more Eastern focused war. And yes it is still that vague. But as to British politics I see the Conservatives taking power after 1915 elections, Home Rule is the divisive issue, the Liberals are not the party taking Britain to war, there is no genuine red scare so Labour can be progressive, Fabian and left leaning without as much loathing by Tories. That should divide progressive forces in Britain, the Liberals might split much like they did, but I tend to see a three way race for longer. This Britain is not as poor, not in debt and not as weak, London holds on to its place as the global nexus of finance. If the Tories do not get into the war, then I think they generally hold power for a time, there is no Depression to quash things, the economy should do well enough that liberalism can take hold again. Lloyd George takes the reigns in an evolution rather than a revolution, and Churchill likely fades. The big issues will be a Germany now nearly a peer to the Empire, able to build a strong fleet and challenging British markets more boldly with the USA right there, the Empire is under siege from two sides. I am uncertain how it changes the specifics but I think the poles are clear, does Britain pursue its industry or naval strength? Does it liberalize or retrench? Does it decolonialize or double down on holding power? But at least some of the inner pressure is not there, the Australians are not hurt by Gallipoli, India has not sent men to die in Europe for the King, Britain still looks very much a super power.

 

[MichaelWest]

MichaelWest, My timing is much worst
The Bolshevik Revolution is successful in June 1917 and in autumn the Germans must rams true French Font lines with all they got from East front.
Check Wikipedia it got some interesting details about "the Little annoying Austrian" special about time in Bavarian Army were some of his comrades suspected he is a homosexual ! (a reason to dishonorable discharge from Bavarian Army)



That's the Fortschrittliche Volkspartei (FVP) aka The Progressive People's Party in english
they are Liberals in Empire, there goals structural reforms in Empire, a new local elections law, the separation of Church and State, free trade, a progressive taxation, as well as safety, health, and welfare of people at work.
very Important party during WW1

And there also Nationalliberale Partei (NLP) aka National Liberal Party in english
They were right-wing liberals there goals consolidate the German Empire and support it transformation to modern Industry state
They support the Protestant Liberals bourgeois and industrials Grand Burgher of Empire


On British politics
For the moment while i write the TL there not much Change in UK politics after 1918 and follow 1920s
but i have some idea for 1930s but i have to reason those concept and there outcome for this TL
if the ideas work the 1940s and today TL of Britain could radical different as OTL

It is easy to piss on Hitler from a very high place, he is a villain. Perhaps we cannot simply leave him off the map since he is so much a part of the history, but I agree that without the unique sequence of events to catapult him from odd Corporal to Fuhrer, he should be an obscure failure. I would prefer he had a success as a artist rather than lead the world into ruin, but that sounds too sympathetic, I have none, so we must fit him into some "realistic" role. Same for the other "famous" folks.

My thinking is that the SPD will be the biggest single party but still not a clear majority, to their frustration the left-wing splits off and is more opposition than ally, that should pull the SPD towards the Centre, Zentrum and the FVP should be able to form a coalition to dominate things for some time. The NLP and Conservatives should form the true opposition but I do not see them getting power unless they can seduce either the Zentrum or FVP, but when Germany gets richer, fatter and more secure, I can see a wave of right-leaning voting favoring business and back pedaling on the progressive agenda. Without the Depression I think Germany holds a rather leftward agenda up to at least the 1930s, that is when it might begin to shift, issues of trade and emerging technologies might begin to alter the landscape as will the shift in generation. I tend to think a Centre-right Christian Democrat party might yet emerge, Zentrum likely sees itself shrinking and less relevant in the clearly left-leaning coalition, the divide between Protestant and Catholic might fade, thus the right is more about social issues and favoring business, more clearly in favor of the middle-class and elite, but not sharply so, a CDU versus SPD might have been where Germany ended by the end of the 1940s, with the FVP a swing vote to the left and NLP a swing vote to the right, either or both as critical coalition partners. Do the Spartikists go watermelon, green on the outside and red in the center as the 1950s turn into the 1960s and another more idealistic generation emerges, here Germany has not fought a big war in decades, it is an aging industrial economy and global power player, maybe engaged in some of the bloody dirty wars, at least as an arms supplier? I can see the Germans embroiled in the decomposition of empires, it has as much to gain as the USA, new independent suppliers and buyers.

 

[Michel Van]

It is easy to piss on Hitler from a very high place, he is a villain. Perhaps we cannot simply leave him off the map since he is so much a part of the history, but I agree that without the unique sequence of events to catapult him from odd Corporal to Fuhrer, he should be an obscure failure. I would prefer he had a success as a artist rather than lead the world into ruin, but that sounds too sympathetic, I have none, so we must fit him into some "realistic" role. Same for the other "famous" folks.

He was Evil, i play with idea to make him crippled and he sell his painting on street to survive, but that was too sympathetic.
He was Failure, but not a Total one, see what he accomplish in his Evil, so why not Crime lord ?

On Politics
The SDP and FVP play important in post war Politic of beginn 1920s
The German Empire survive in my TL the War, but not stable Political, German Emperor must made some concessions and Socials reforms (he made promises before the War).
Paradoxical the SPD & FVP has not total Power to make big changes because, The Empire won the War, so Emperor got Hero status.
And incorporation of former Germans parts of Austria-Hungary, will change political balance in Reichstag with new political Parties.
So the reforms will moderated in in begin of 1920, but it's the begin for the Future of Germany
For Others those reforms are nothing as broken promises: the Germans Communist and they will fight...

 

[Thomas1195]

NLP a swing vote to the right, either or both as critical coalition partners

The NLP would not have a shot unless they start accumulating money from business and spending them lavishly in elections like the US Republicans led by the duo Mark Hanna - William McKinley in 1896. If they manage to do so, by dumping money to "buy" elections, they could have surpass even the SDP.

the Liberals might split much like they did

No, on the contrary, an election loss in 1915 would be vital for their survival. It would give them a golden opportunity to regain control over the mostly anti-war Radicals, whose role would be critical for their future. Preventing them from moving to Labour would weaken the latter while strengthening the Liberals.

Also, unlike IOTL, they, including Lloyd George, and together with Labour would be united in opposition of conscription.

Finally, they would have a field day blaming the Tories for a war defeat.

 

[MichaelWest]

The NLP would not have a shot unless they start accumulating money from business and spending them lavishly in elections like the US Republicans led by the duo Mark Hanna - William McKinley in 1896. If they manage to do so, by dumping money to "buy" elections, they could have surpass even the SDP.


No, on the contrary, an election loss in 1915 would be vital for their survival. It would give them a golden opportunity to regain control over the mostly anti-war Radicals, whose role would be critical for their future. Preventing them from moving to Labour would weaken the latter while strengthening the Liberals.

Also, unlike IOTL, they, including Lloyd George, and together with Labour would be united in opposition of conscription.

Finally, they would have a field day blaming the Tories for a war defeat.

That was my idea, the right-leaning Liberals in Germany become associated with the middle-class, favor business and garner more support from the corporate community. Thus they may be socially "liberal" and vote that way with the SDP coalition, they would likely prefer less taxation, more security (if only for defense contracts) and dampen government oversight, callous things we paint the GOP with but general enough to craft a political debate. I do not think they ever could become a ruling party, but they would be a potent coalition partner and the only one the Conservatives might have to eek out a Government from time to time. But the truth is the minority partners often wag the dog more than we want.

Thus I said "might", I think the top level sees the same divide but I cannot say it leads to a split, instead I would argue there was grounds for the Liberals to drift o the two sides as Labour ascends and the Tories adopt more Liberal attitudes, but you are correct, if the Liberal Party is to remain functional it needs to stay out of the war and be its face. Labour may not rise beyond a rather leftist minority and the Tories might miss the shift to Centre, but I leave that to the British members to debate. I think generally the shifts remain, but if the Tories muck up Ireland and stumble into the war late they might not see the top seat for a long time, you might get a Liberal Party resurgence rather than death.

 

[Michel Van]

in simpel words

NLP becomes the Empire version of Today germans FDP liberals, While FVP is liberals wing of socialist.
Like i say Austria become part of Empire in TL and those parties get in Reichstag
the biggest are:

Sozialdemokratische Arbeiterpartei Österreichs (Austrian socialist democrats worker Party)
Christlichsoziale Partei Österreichs (Austrian Christian Social Party)
The Minor are:
Vereinigte Deutsche Linke Österreichs (Austrian united Germans Left)
Jüdischnationale Partei (Austrian jewish National party)
Deutsche Arbeiter Partei (Austrian German worker Party)

They will first, push there own agenda and Plans, but on long term they look for Alliance and cooperation.
Even fusion with other Parties. but this take time so 1920s and 1930s will feature some turbulent politic in Empire
Last word on this has the Empore Wilhelm II.

Ich bin für Demokratie, aber ich scheiße auf den Sozialismus
I'm for Democracy, but i give a shit about socialism