Islamic Vikings - How ASB?

Tordenskjold

Let's say that some viking ruler in the periode 800-1000 grew tired of being called a pagan, and decided to have his own monotheistic religion. The french and the english already have christianity, the russians and greeks got orthodox christianity and the jews are just too oppressed and rare to offer judaism as a real alternative. However, the viking king hears of Islam, a religion which none of his neighbors share, and with lots of eager missionaries. The call is sent out and idealistic young imams take the long journey up the eastern european river system to scandinavia.

The above scenario is very rough and full of ASB. What I'd like to hear is has anyone tried it? And how could it be plausible to have islam become a major religion in the northern european countries, fueled by trade and cultural exchange along the Danube and Volga rivers (and their extensions further north)?

Drawing on the examples of Indonesia and Bangladesh, what kind of similarities between the two situations could help the cause of Islam in the north? What factors are different and offer problems for progressing Islamic conversion among the vikings? And what kind of society could evolve?
 
iori

iori

Their are multiple problems with the idea;

1. Their were no real Viking Kingdoms in the sense of other groups having Kingdoms, rather Vikings were a mix of raiders and usurpers (IE they'd just replace whomever was in power and continue things as they were before).

2 Islam was at the time confined to the Middle-East and as such it would be unlikely any Vikings would know about it and if they did all they'd likely know is that it was a religion pracitced in the deserts a world away.

3. Islam at the time was still very much an ethno-regional religion, it was'nt really big on spreading farther than it had to that point and no Imams would want to trek through enemy lands to the Far North just because of a rumour that some 'heathens' might possibly be interested in Islam.

4. Islam has ALOT of proscriptions that would make the Vikings stare in shock and horror, most botably the no alcohol and no pork stuff, which is a big deal breaker for Northern Europeans in general.
 

Lord High Executioner

There are multiple problems with your problems, but I will have to leave
most of them to someone who can explain them better.

800-1000 was, as far as I know, the first half or so of the Golden Age of
Islam. The Islamic world at the time was not confined to the Middle East but included North Africa, the Iberian peninsula and various points east of the Middle East...

There was a good deal of trade between the Vikings and Serkland, and not just with Vikings making the trip. Does the name Ahmad ibn Fadlan ring a bell?
 

Tordenskjold

Iori said:
Their are multiple problems with the idea;

1. Their were no real Viking Kingdoms in the sense of other groups having Kingdoms, rather Vikings were a mix of raiders and usurpers (IE they'd just replace whomever was in power and continue things as they were before).
Click to expand...

But there were Viking rulers, kings who united large tracts of land over a period of time. A smart ruler might realise that having a unifying religion could benefit his kingdom and create a core around which to build a real medieval feudal state, like in France and England. A large part of Harald Bluetooth's unification of Denmark and Norway, incl. parts of modern Sweden, was converting the populations to christianity.

Iori said:
2 Islam was at the time confined to the Middle-East and as such it would be unlikely any Vikings would know about it and if they did all they'd likely know is that it was a religion pracitced in the deserts a world away.

3. Islam at the time was still very much an ethno-regional religion, it was'nt really big on spreading farther than it had to that point and no Imams would want to trek through enemy lands to the Far North just because of a rumour that some 'heathens' might possibly be interested in Islam.
Click to expand...

As the Lord High Executioner points out it was my impression that islam in the early medieval period was at a peak of its missionary vigor, spreading quickly in most of the middle east and going on to the far east (Afghanistan, India). Is it really inconceivable that travel-hungry clerics should take the trip up river to scandinavia? The later missionaries went all the way to Indonesia (although this was connected to trade to a much higher degree).

The purpose of the thread is mostly to find arguments for a plausible conversion from paganism to Islam, and of course to find arguments that make such conversion less likely to happen. Given the premise of "How can Islam spread among the Vikings?" what would you consider the most plausible way/scale for it to happen?

Iori said:
4. Islam has ALOT of proscriptions that would make the Vikings stare in shock and horror, most botably the no alcohol and no pork stuff, which is a big deal breaker for Northern Europeans in general.
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Yes, the culture schock is significant. But I still think it possible. As a rule religion is often bend to fit into local culture, and shapes the culture as well. Remember that christianity wasn't big on drinking or pagan parties either, but the vikings still had their christmas celebrations - they just changed them into feasts honoring the christian god. Pork is harder, maybe an exception to the rule could be made for the northren muslims? Or pigs replaced with some other kind of livestock ? Sheep? Cows?
 

Dathi THorfinnsson

Scandinavians formed the Varangian guard in byzantium, and certainly ran into islam there. Cf the ibn fadlan already mentioned.
Vikings traded/raided down to spain and found islam there, too.

So... someone like haraldr hardhradhi serves in an islamic court rather than the byzantine one, comes home and regains his crown.

Not high probability, but certainly possible.

Otoh, all of christendom will rise in arms, and even if they dont formally call a crusade, they WILL throw money, arms and political support behind any and every rival.

I could see a muslim king lasting ... ten years? But thats about it.
 

Mookie

Banned
Well the easiest one would be if russians chose islam over orthodoxy, or if golden horde crushes the russians and reaches the baltic.

Then you could have muslim expansion into france ending with muslim victory, but that would probably change the world too much.

The common issue (funily) that is put forward is the problem of pork and alcohol. As a Muslim from Bosnia, I can tell you that our ancestors ate pork and drank mead before islam in ample quantities. And winters are allmost cold as Russian ones. And life was hard for a muslim in those parts, being muslim on frontiers doesnt give incentive to convert. That 10% tax, pork and mead seem kinda sweater than death. But people still converted, some due to similarity of Islam and Bogomilism, some due to other things.

The main thing you need is to produce a religious fervor in vikings about islam. If you manage to get them to feel it as a right thing then its easy, but I dont see how, unless you specificaly send missionaries o_O

Some similarities exist: Valhalla-Janat, relative warrior culture at the time...
 

Incognito

Banned
Iori said:
2 Islam was at the time confined to the Middle-East and as such it would be unlikely any Vikings would know about it and if they did all they'd likely know is that it was a religion pracitced in the deserts a world away.
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Arabs and Vikings had contact with each other:

More than a millennium ago, as fleets of Viking raiders were striking fear into the hearts of coast and river-dwellers throughout western Europe, other Norsemen of more mercantile inclination were making their way east. With no less boldness and stamina, bearing luxurious furs and enticing nodules of amber, they penetrated the vast steppes of what is today Ukraine, Belarus and Russia and entered Central Asia. There they met Muslim traders who paid for Norse wares with silver coins, which the Viking themselves did not mint, and which they coveted. Their routes were various, and by the ninth and 10th centuries, a regular trade network had grown up. Some Norsemen traveled overland and by river, while others sailed over both the Black and Caspian Seas, joined caravans and rode camelback as far as Baghdad, which was then under Abbasid rule and populated by nearly a million souls. There, the Scandinavian traders found an emporium beyond their wildest dreams, for their fjord-rimmed homelands had only recently seen the emergence of a few rudimentary towns. To the Arabs of Baghdad, the presence of the Norsemen probably didn't come as much of a surprise, for the Arabs were long accustomed to meeting people from different cultures and civilizations. They were also keen and literate observers. Abbasid historians and caliphal envoys put to paper eyewitness accounts of the roving Scandinavians, leaving a historical legacy that is shedding new light both on Viking history and on a little-known chapter of early Islamic history.
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http://www.nordicway.com/search/Vikings in the East.htm
Iori said:
3. Islam at the time was still very much an ethno-regional religion, it was'nt really big on spreading farther than it had to that point and no Imams would want to trek through enemy lands to the Far North just because of a rumour that some 'heathens' might possibly be interested in Islam.
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But they did:
Ibn Fadlan: an Arab Among the Vikings of Russia

Overview

In 921, the Arab traveler Ahmad ibn Fadlan (fl. 920s) went on a diplomatic mission to what is now Russia. There he encountered numerous Turkic peoples, among them the Khazars, one of the few groups in history outside of Israel to adopt Judaism. But perhaps the most memorable passages in the Risala, his account of his journeys, concern the Varangians, a group of Vikings known by a term that would eventually become the name of the surrounding country itself: Rus.

Background

Ibn Fadlan traveled on orders from al-Muqtadir (r. 908-932), ruler of the Abbasid caliphate. Though by Ibn Fadlan's time the influence of the caliphs—imperial leaders who possessed religious as well as political authority—had declined somewhat, the Abbasid dynasty still remained the single most powerful force east of the Byzantine Empire and west of China. Through military might, combined with their fervent belief in Islam, the soldiers of the Umayyad caliphate (661-750) had extended Arab influence from Spain to India; and though the Abbasids (750-1258) proved less aggressive militarily, they were nonetheless eager missionaries for the Muslim faith.

Hence the purpose of Ibn Fadlan's mission: to explain Islamic law to the recently converted Volga Bulgars.
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Source: http://www.bookrags.com/research/ibn-fadlan-an-arab-among-the-viking-scit-021/

For reference, this is where wiki says Volga Bulgaria was:

VolgaBulgaria1200.png
 

Dagon

The more successful Islam is against Christianity, the more likely the Pagan Norse are too choose it. If Islam was more successful in Iberia, and spread into southern Europe, then the Norse might see Islam as the winners and Christians as the losers
 

Lysandros Aikiedes

No Viking chief would be "tired of being called a pagan". Nor is that the actual reason for their eventual conversion to Christianity. Many aspiring kings converted because a) they wanted to establish better relations, even marital ties with the larger Christian kingdoms on the continent, and b) because Christian priests and monks were able bureaucrats and secretaries, who were useful to centralising rulers who wanted to move away from the tribalism of the past. They may have done something like this with or without converting to a monotheistic religion, but from their perspective it was easier for Norse kings this way, especially if they were ruling kingdoms that had already been Christian for centuries. And since many first generation converts had very little idea about their new religion, it was common for them to hold belief in both religions at the same time. "Converted" kings are reported in some instances of continuing Pagan rituals even many years after their conversion. If I remember correctly, one of the earliest kings of Hungary said he was rich enough to honour the Christian god as well as the Magyar gods.
 

Lugal

I started a timeline that sort of covers this although it's more of an Islamic "Normandy" in Northern Spain aligned with the Andalusians. Islam is never much more than a minority in the North in TTL though.
 

Dave Howery

Iori said:
4. Islam has ALOT of proscriptions that would make the Vikings stare in shock and horror, most botably the no alcohol and no pork stuff, which is a big deal breaker for Northern Europeans in general.
Click to expand...
wasn't mead (honey-based alcohol) specifically allowed? No pork would indeed be a problem, as pigs were a rather vital source of protein...
 

ingemann

Banned
The question is why should they convert to Islam.

It give all the trouble of converting to Christianity (alienating your Pagan allies, family and neighbours, fealthy to a far off religious leader) plus some more (religious restriction) and none of benefits (friendship with and support from their Christian neighbours and a bureaucracy they can use).

The only benefit is quite minor (better relationship with the rare Arabic merchant).

So what Norse ruler in their right mind would embrace Islam, and how would he avoid being murdered or dethroned in less than a few years?

So if people want a Islamic Norse state, it will have to be a Danelaw set up in Spain, as it's the only place where there exist any benefits in it.
 

Arafeel

An Islamic normaid analoug is your best bet imho. Islamizing the home lands is ABS. Getting them Christian was hard enough. Pork is really not such a large issue really, it was among mutton and horse, mostly a feast meal. Fish was the major source of protein, and would continue to be it up until our times. (this is most true for norway, least for denmark)
 

Flocculencio

Donor
Where the booze is concerned, IIRC that verse can be read to mean that only wine is prohibited which should leave the Vikings free to drink beer.

Pork is going to be a bigger issue since at those latitudes pigs are the most efficient source of protein
 
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