Is Saxony better of without the personal union with Poland?

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August the Strong, Elector of Saxony payed enough bribes to get elected as king of Poland-Lithuania in 1697.
This gave Saxony a chance eto become a European Power. But also brought many problems with it.
In the end, the poorer Brandenburg-Prussia eclipsed Saxony and became a Great Power.

Some disadvantages of the personal-union are:
- the impossiblity to centralize or defend 18 century Poland-Lithuania
- foreign interference by Austria, Russia, Sweden and Prussia who all want a weak Poland (for example Saxony would avoid the Great Northern War with Sweden)
- the conversion to catholicism, necessary to become king of Poland, caused discontent with many Saxon protestants
- less focus on Saxony means less centralization and development here
- continued expensive bribes for each successor to get reelected as king by the Polish nobility

So the question arises weather Saxony would be in a better position if August the Strong either declined or failed to become king of Poland-Lithuania.
Would such a more centralized Saxony be able to conquer Silesia or be able to contain the rise of Prussia?
 
Seconding @Zygmunt Stary. PLC is a mess that Saxony doesn't need. In its absence, Saxony can focus on getting its own power base consolidated, maybe becoming a major player in the HRE itself
 
Seconding @Zygmunt Stary. PLC is a mess that Saxony doesn't need. In its absence, Saxony can focus on getting its own power base consolidated, maybe becoming a major player in the HRE itself

It already was major player, I think it could ally with Sweden against Brandenburg-Prussia (no Augustus means no GNW per OTL) while PLC rots under Conti/Sobieski/Baden and Peter probably focuses on south.
 
less focus on Saxony means less centralization and development here
How much could Saxony really do? Even Prussia mostly gained in economic strength from acquiring lands in western Germany, east of the Elbe they were about comparable with neighbors like Mecklenburg (mostly rural economy of selling raw materials to the few local cities or more numerous/larger cities in the Rhineland/Netherlands/Britain) until the industrialization of the mid 1800s. Except Saxony doesn't even have the Baltic sea access to do that.

I guess Saxony could build an army now and pay for it later, putting that Polish bribe money toward the acquisition of richer lands elsewhere in Germany. But would their main ally Austria support them in that venture-- would Austria even be their ally if the Wettins stayed Protestant? Prussia could seek the support of Baltic allies and later Britain against Austria (there's no "if it needed it"-- it most certainly did need it, that help was very nearly insufficient during the Seven Years' War) but again, where are Saxony's friends?

No wonder it tried to buy a friend in Poland. I can see why Augustus and successors thought it would be a good idea. John III Sobieski and Marie Casimire had buffed out some of the visible debts, one could almost overlook the damage of the previous decades' Swedish/Russian/Turkish invasions. That it wasn't a great idea, that by tying itself to Poland Saxony only became a pawn in French/Austrian/Russian/Prussian struggles over the fate of the PLC, is also true. But I don't think Saxony had a better option, so the question at that point is-- how do you fix the PLC?

And that's only hard because even on the eve of the Second and Third Partitions the Targowica Confederation was deluded enough to think Russia only wanted the status quo in Poland-- but, it's not like they marched into Warsaw unopposed, they had to defeat the last stand of the reformists who correctly identified Poland's problem as a faulty constitution. If that conflict could have been waged decades (probably close to a century) earlier and concluded with a reformist victory... but then again, if the absolute prostration of the PLC before all its traditional enemies in the 1600s didn't create a consensus for change...

But "consensus", that's democratic thinking. Why not give autocracy a chance? 1700s Romanov Russia may not have been a particularly stable autocracy-- coups left and right, short male reigns and very long female reigns (very odd for a patriarchal, patrilinear institution)-- but there could at least be a fount of unquestioned authority on whose basis other talented people could exercise legitimate command and get things done. You could graft a von Munnich onto Tsarist Russia and get a Suvorov out of it later. You could graft Colbert onto Bourbon France, or a Francis Walsingham onto Elizabeth's England, and you get the idea. And so I hate to say this about the flower of the Polish nation, the many cultured families that produced talents in science, art, and war-- but maybe these people need an Auspicious Incident, Ottoman style. Now how are devastating oprichnik purges of the szlachta to be justified? I don't know-- maybe the answer could involve a more successful Calvinism that threatens to take over the state, Calvinism did find some purchase in PLC society-- people may be convinced that stopping it requires the best of early modern policing power, and with it all other forms of authority. But then you'd have to ask why Saxon kings would do all that and if their populace of nearly 100% Lutherans would stand for it.
 
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How much could Saxony really do? Even Prussia mostly gained in economic strength from acquiring lands in western Germany, east of the Elbe they were about comparable with neighbors like Mecklenburg (mostly rural economy of selling raw materials to the few local cities or more numerous/larger cities in the Rhineland/Netherlands/Britain) until the industrialization of the mid 1800s. Except Saxony doesn't even have the Baltic sea access to do that.
Saxony has a stronger economy than Brandenburg and a higher population density.
Brandenburg and Mecklenburg have the lowest population densities in Germany.
Despite a smaller economic base Brandenburg managed to field larger Armies.

The city of Leipzig already was an important trading place for Central Europe.

Coal becomes important in the 19 century. The nearest important coal fields which Saxony could gain are in Southern Silesia. A competently lead Saxon Army could conquer Silesia in an alternate war of Austrian succession.

A coup to dismantle and radically alter the politics of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is an interesting idea. However a foreign king would face a lot of resistance, and any noble alliance against him would easily get foreign support.

Maybe a somewhat richer Saxony enters a personal union with Poland at a later date, after an alternate first partition, with Poland already weakened. Then maybe a strong reformed Saxon army would maybe strong enough to enforce radical reforms. Desperation could convince more nobles that serious reforms are indeed necessary.
 
Saxony has a stronger economy than Brandenburg and a higher population density.
Brandenburg and Mecklenburg have the lowest population densities in Germany.
Despite a smaller economic base Brandenburg managed to field larger Armies.

The city of Leipzig already was an important trading place for Central Europe.
That's definitely true, Saxony compares very favorably to Brandenburg and East Prussia-- Prussia just taxed its commoners enough (buying off the Junkers by taxing them less and giving them state salaries) to build a bigger army. Frederick the Great, like Alexander the Great, was able to built on the achievements of his father. Although, that army has to actually win to be a good investment (because even if you win, you will probably lose a ton of money and tens if not hundreds of thousands of men)-- if it loses, then you'll seek other means of protecting your independence (which is why many other small states within the HRE preferred vassalage and gifts, instead of arming to the teeth). And Prussian victory often benefited from foreign assistance-- the Seven Years War, in which it fought alone except for British subsidies against France, Austria, and Russia, nearly broke it. It was nearly a bridge too far, Russian coins were minted for occupied Konigsberg-- and these were respected more than the debased Prussian coins. Few states took the rickety, uncertain Prussian route because these are the sorts of situations you could find yourself in by design or accident, scraping the metal off coins and just hoping you can hold out longer than your enemies. But then, Tsar Peter III (and his decision was upheld by Catherine II, even if she used the deal as an excuse to overthrow her husband) gave East Prussia back free of charge-- because Prussia would be more useful to Russia as a fellow partitioner of Poland. Elizabeth (who had no children), who took East Prussia in the first place, thought she could arrange some deal where she'd give it to Poland and get some other territory from Poland-- but I'm sure she wouldn't have gotten as much as Catherine later got in the First Partition, and then the two after that.

Saxony, like Prussia, can only do so much on its own even if it operates at maximum efficiency. So where are its friends and how could they feasibly deliver subsidies, troops, or other aid in a time of crisis? Saxony being landlocked, their friends are to be found on land-- like Austria, which wants Saxony to do what it did OTL, be Catholic and function as a Habsburg proxy in the war against French backed candidates for the Polish throne.

Coal becomes important in the 19 century. The nearest important coal fields which Saxony could gain are in Southern Silesia. A competently lead Saxon Army could conquer Silesia in an alternate war of Austrian succession.
From the vantage of the late 1600s, it's a long and bloody century until then. Poland did not live to see the 19th century, and Saxony was lucky to survive-- Metternich promised Saxony to Prussia in October 1814, trading Saxony for Westphalia was entirely Prussia's choice.

A coup to dismantle and radically alter the politics of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth is an interesting idea. However a foreign king would face a lot of resistance, and any noble alliance against him would easily get foreign support.

Maybe a somewhat richer Saxony enters a personal union with Poland at a later date, after an alternate first partition, with Poland already weakened. Then maybe a strong reformed Saxon army would maybe strong enough to enforce radical reforms. Desperation could convince more nobles that serious reforms are indeed necessary.
I guess it would be weird for a foreign ruler to do all that for their new country but-- Catherine II was 100% German. And her husband and predecessor Peter III was 50% Russian (through his mother, the elder daughter of Peter the Great) but he was raised in Kiel and identified with German culture.

Peter the Great's intended heir Alexei was... a real piece of work, and then his younger brother died at four-- so Russia's rulers after Peter were Catherine I (Peter's Polish wife), Peter II (Peter's grandson through Alexei), Anna I (Peter's half-brother's daughter), Ivan VI (great-grandson of Peter's half-brother), Elizabeth I (Peter's younger daughter), Peter III (Peter's grandson through his elder daughter), and then Catherine II (no blood connection to Peter whatsoever). After her came her son Paul I (Peter I's great-grandson through Peter III), then his son Alexander I, and so Russia returned in the 1800s to father-son succession as God intended.

But through most of the 1700s (Peter I died in 1725, Catherine II in 1796) yhe succession is jumping all around the family tree, and it's drawing in more and more of those foreign spouses, friends, and lovers that Peter was so intent on having all the king's men (and women) marry and associate with-- these people who Russians were supposed to absorb culture from or whatever ended up drawn closer and closer to the center of power by the chaotic succession. It sounds like a recipe for disaster.

But for some reason it wasn't-- probably because whoever was on top was expected to feel some ownership over the whole enterprise, to occupy the space which Ivan IV and Peter I had carved out for the benefit of future monarchs-- to sit on the old greats' throne and make use of their spies. If a new monarch could overcome whatever coups were mounted against them, they would face little opposition in the day to day. And Catherine II responded to that by taking ownership-- first deposing her husband for being a "Germanophile" and then showing how a real Tsarina does it. Namely, they don't do it alone-- Catherine continued efforts going back to Peter I to produce and employ talented personnel from Russia and abroad. But that multinational harvest of talent needed some form of executive direction, and a Tsar(ina) could certainly be a chief executive.

Now I understand why "Poland should be more like Tsarist Russia and Bourbon France" doesn't seem like an obvious conclusion-- after all we usually bash both of those governments in order to justify the revolutions that ended them. But both of them very consistently accomplished a lot, even if the problems they could not deal with sapped the public's trust in them-- something they could have used in the crises that finally ended them. And it may seem somehow unpalatable that the unique and fascinating government and philosophy of the PLC should be abandoned wholesale for another boring autocracy-- surely the right solution would be a compromise of liberty and executive direction, deliberation and the final word. But that's always been a moving target, it would be very difficult to hit even if it was still-- why would Poland get it right on the first try when even England, even America, required several attempts? England overshot and got the Protectorate, America undershot and got the Articles of Confederation. Of course America's isolation let it bumble around in peace-- the hellish competition of early modern Europe will not allow undershooting. But, even an overshoot can be course corrected by subsequent events-- the heritage of the Golden Liberty may be all the more beloved for a brief absence, in which it is remembered fondly but evaluated critically.

So how is Saxony supposed to fit into all of this? Saxony's job from the Habsburg perspective is to keep Poland pro-Habsburg and keep... well, keep Stanislaw Leszczynski out along with whoever is backing him (Sweden the first time in the 1700s, France the second time in the 1730s). That's a very vague mission and Saxony has carte blanche-- Austria won't interrupt them as long as the nightmare scenario of a French-Polish invasion of Germany doesn't happen. The trouble is that Saxony-Poland has another customer it must satisfy, Russia-- and Russia would love nothing more (it has no more desirable direction of expansion) than the Baltic and the lands of old Kyivan Rus'. The Saxons Augustus II and III had one contest each with Stanislaw Leszczynski-- in both contests they were backed by Russia, which made decisive contributions to their victory. This isn't to say Russia has some surefire method of selecting only bad rulers for Poland-- they did select Stanislaw August Poniatowski, only for him to be a reformist. No, Russia's method really only consists of waiting and seeing-- and once they have seen enough, marching tens of thousands of troops in to sabotage reform even if they were the ones who let the reformist become king in the first place. And then there's the Prussian jackal-- although it never acted against Poland alone except in the 1790s, when Russia acts against Poland Prussia will usually be right beside it.

Taking the above into account, Saxony only has to keep Austria on side while enduring Russia-- not necessarily defeating it, but enduring it. When Russia invades (there is no "if") Poland should be at a state of enough readiness and resolve that it could keep the government intact (even if it needs to move to a safe place within Poland or across the border into Saxony) while punishing and delegitimizing whatever collaborator confederation Russia organizes-- assassinations, propaganda (the printing press?), stealing the regalia, whatever. That level of Polish strength might make Austria nervous, but by using the same strength to defeat Prussia Saxony can defend itself and convince Austria that it is of no threat for Habsburg primacy in Germany. And that should be it-- France, Sweden, or Britain can cause trouble but they're just flashes in the pan, their contributions are only grafted onto the more consistent influence of the Three Partitioners.

Could a Saxon king have done that? Well, it doesn't look like either of the Wettins ever tried, or maybe they tried and realized it was impossible. But if they had the resolve of Joseph II Habsburg, maybe things could have been different for Saxony and Poland alike? Especially in that period 1740-1760 in which Saxon kings ruled Poland and it should have been very plain that just having Poland wouldn't be enough to protect Saxony from Prussia, if even Austria was losing to them.
 
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I think people don’t get a important point about the Prussian army, even if it wasn’t used it served several purposes.

1: It sole existence meant other state had to be careful around Prussia, they could get concessions simply by staying neutral.
2: It ensured the monarch’s control over the state, a revolt by the nobility was pretty much impossible.
3: It served to develop a civil service.
4: It helped Prussia develop industries and infrastructure connected to the army, like arms, textiles and garrison towns. Fundamental big armies was just as much a way to develop the economy as it was about waging war. The soldiers also often worked as semi-skilled workers in their free time and helped breaking the guild system.
 
I think people don’t get a important point about the Prussian army, even if it wasn’t used it served several purposes.

1: It sole existence meant other state had to be careful around Prussia, they could get concessions simply by staying neutral.
2: It ensured the monarch’s control over the state, a revolt by the nobility was pretty much impossible.
3: It served to develop a civil service.
4: It helped Prussia develop industries and infrastructure connected to the army, like arms, textiles and garrison towns. Fundamental big armies was just as much a way to develop the economy as it was about waging war. The soldiers also often worked as semi-skilled workers in their free time and helped breaking the guild system.
Sure-- the question of "how poor Brandenburg eclipsed rich Saxony" must partly be answered by the fact that the army, just by existing, helped develop Brandenburg over the long term. But I hesitate to then say "all Saxony has to do is make the same investment and they'll get the same result, no Poland required".

An army must still win wars. Gaining concessions by mere neutrality partly depends on an army's reputation as well as (what observers know about) its size and equipment, if its reputation is insufficient for this kind of power play then it will have to fight for that concession. And if it then loses, that's a greater humiliation than making the ultimatum and then not going to war at all. That humiliation could demoralize the nobles who are counted on to provide leadership for the civil service and officer corps-- thr same nobles who through the estates have an independent voice in the government.

Prussia, in a war with Sweden, could count on Russia's (and Hanover's) help; against Austria it had France; against France, Austria, and Russia it had (Hanover and) Britain. The Baltic and North Seas were important for staving off total diplomatic isolation and military encirclement. I just don't think landlocked Saxony can ever move between partners so elegantly-- and so even if it made the same investments in an army like Prussia's and reaped some of the inherent benefits, it may still lose not because its army was bad but because the Saxon leadership overestimated their strength or got stuck in a dangerous diplomatic situation with no way out.

And even if the army helps develop industries that make society richer in the long term, in the short term those industries may not provide enough tax revenue to balance the immediate costs of the army-- which means more taxation of the people in general. If the army is losing on top of all this, whatever institutions are counted on to restrain the king might wonder why the people can't just be allowed to lead more comfortable lives, even if their kingdom is less independent. Surely Austria can keep us safe, if not them then Prussia will do it. If anything could explain why more German states didn't act like Prussia, this may be it.
 
I guess it would be weird for a foreign ruler to do all that for their new country but-- Catherine II was 100% German. And her husband and predecessor Peter III was 50% Russian (through his mother, the elder daughter of Peter the Great) but he was raised in Kiel and identified with German culture.

The difference is, Catherine worked in environment which was receptive to idea of strong, very strong monarchy. Augustus, to make it work would need to attack very rooted beliefs of his society, with foreign monarchs backing it up (when Augustus II's son and succesor Augustus III tried to introduce some mild army reforms, all Frederick II of Prussia had to do was to bribe a few magnates and distribute pamphlets screaming: "bohhoooo absolutism bad, tis is absolutism" and despite everyone seemingly supporting it at the beginning, everyone turned back on it), and it'd be very hard to pull off. That's why Augustus would be better off letting that mess slowly rot and taking care about his hereditary Saxony instead.

Now I understand why "Poland should be more like Tsarist Russia and Bourbon France" doesn't seem like an obvious conclusion-- after all we usually bash both of those governments in order to justify the revolutions that ended them. But both of them very consistently accomplished a lot, even if the problems they could not deal with sapped the public's trust in them-- something they could have used in the crises that finally ended them. And it may seem somehow unpalatable that the unique and fascinating government and philosophy of the PLC should be abandoned wholesale for another boring autocracy-- surely the right solution would be a compromise of liberty and executive direction, deliberation and the final word. But that's always been a moving target, it would be very difficult to hit even if it was still-- why would Poland get it right on the first try when even England, even America, required several attempts? England overshot and got the Protectorate, America undershot and got the Articles of Confederation. Of course America's isolation let it bumble around in peace-- the hellish competition of early modern Europe will not allow undershooting. But, even an overshoot can be course corrected by subsequent events-- the heritage of the Golden Liberty may be all the more beloved for a brief absence, in which it is remembered fondly but evaluated critically.

No, the "Poland should be more like Tsarist Russia and Bourbon France" isn't an obvious conclusion - it is, however, the actual truth. The talk of "liberty" seems so sweet, but in practice, the executionist movement (the creators of "golden liberty") and it's spawn proved itself to be hilariously disconnected from reality and practically setting up the nation to be conquered by others. It isn't really "fascinating" also - "frustrating" is better word, even if you believe democracy is the best thing since sliced bread, the society wasn't really ready for it than, the insistence of nobles on parliamentarism only made things worse, and not only on practical level - it caused atrophy of common values which plauges Poland up until the present day, basically Pole can look only in the past and find almost only: "freedom" in it, but is "freedom" a good cornerstone of society, even most democratic and liberal now? Even England had the periods in it's history when it was skewed towards autocracy and priority of collective over individual , and despite how it seems like, it might be not necessarily a bad things, as it allows to find some solace, some escape from individual, daily life (which obviously has lots of bad moments, because nobody's perfect) in history and Pole barely has that, the cult of freedom means ultimate, grasping loneliness.
 
No, the "Poland should be more like Tsarist Russia and Bourbon France" isn't an obvious conclusion - it is, however, the actual truth. The talk of "liberty" seems so sweet, but in practice, the executionist movement (the creators of "golden liberty") and it's spawn proved itself to be hilariously disconnected from reality and practically setting up the nation to be conquered by others
Especially, when this "liberty" is limited to single class - and this class was closed at the time. Also, szlachta was scared of absolutum dominium, somehow nobody noticed that oligarchia magnacka can be problem as well.

Funny thing about August II - he was too clever by half. He was mostly right about the cause of problems in Poland. And his idea of how to fix it and push Wettins into power equal to France, Habsburgs and Great Brittain wasn't really that bad. The problem was that there was no good place for them to expand, since Saxony wasn't ready to confront to take and protect Moldavia, and nobody expected that young King of Sweden will be called "The Lion from the North" in the future.
 
The difference is, Catherine worked in environment which was receptive to idea of strong, very strong monarchy. Augustus, to make it work would need to attack very rooted beliefs of his society, with foreign monarchs backing it up (when Augustus II's son and succesor Augustus III tried to introduce some mild army reforms, all Frederick II of Prussia had to do was to bribe a few magnates and distribute pamphlets screaming: "bohhoooo absolutism bad, tis is absolutism" and despite everyone seemingly supporting it at the beginning, everyone turned back on it), and it'd be very hard to pull off. That's why Augustus would be better off letting that mess slowly rot and taking care about his hereditary Saxony instead.
For France or England, that sort of pamphleteering is where things would begin-- France had its big "anti-absolutist" moment in the Fronde, it had been present in the earlier Wars of Religion but had been submerged somewhat by the religious issue. But the pro-royal party would just fire pamphlets right back and if it came to a fight they'd fight, the anti-absolutists might have the force of numbers at first but that could be overcome with a pro-royal mercenary force-- plenty of Jacobite, German, and other adventurers about, and every one of them employed by Poland is one that doesn't get hired by Russia-- plus assistance from the pro-royal szlachta, even if there's fewer of them. Maybe it could be portrayed as a "palace guard" like how the Ottomans did, until it's strong enough to defend its real purpose-- there has to be some category of taxation or levy that the king can draw on without Sejm approval, legal and religious experts could be set to work finding it. If the initial funding cannot come from Poland it can come from Saxony-- even if the Wettins abandoned Poland they'd have to tax Saxony and build an army, so it's really the same thing. Eventually they may find or manufacture reasons why certain inconvenient PLC laws are illegitimate. They don't even have to be good reasons-- might can make right.

That could all fail to happen for two reasons. One, the commoners could become politically active and join the anti-absolutists. In Brandenburg the nobility sold out the commoners, it was from commoners' taxes that the Prussian army was built-- the Polish anti-absolutists could remind commoners of this. Of course, the pro-royal party could bring up the commoners' memory of humiliation and abuse during the Deluge. Two, the anti-absolutists get Russian help, and then Prussian help, and then Austrian apathy. This one is harder to deal with-- it all but requires a world spanning conflict where Austria is already at war with Russia and Prussia, and there's some other allies like Britain on the Austrian/Saxon/Polish side. The Wettins may be given sufficient subsidies by their allies to achieve the only realistic objective-- surviving on the throne. If they get foreign support, the first thing the anti-absolutists will try to do is elect a replacement for our hypothetical activist Wettin. The Wettin would just have to resist this proxy until Russia decides it can be satisfied for now with a little territory-- and then within the remaining territory, the Wettins should have the strongest force around.

Catherine II's environment didn't come from nowhere-- she built it, working from precedent but making past into present by her own actions. If the Wettins do not have the ability to come in and be "Great" right away, they might have an inclination to be "Terrible" instead. And "terror" cannot come from strict adherence to Sejm procedures, from backing off when someone says no to you because they read a pamphlet-- at some point every absolutist proved themselves personally wiling to burn pamphlets and kill their distributors. For that, people tried to assassinate them, but that's another reason to ask for money and build an espionage corps.

No, the "Poland should be more like Tsarist Russia and Bourbon France" isn't an obvious conclusion - it is, however, the actual truth. The talk of "liberty" seems so sweet, but in practice, the executionist movement (the creators of "golden liberty") and it's spawn proved itself to be hilariously disconnected from reality and practically setting up the nation to be conquered by others. It isn't really "fascinating" also - "frustrating" is better word, even if you believe democracy is the best thing since sliced bread, the society wasn't really ready for it than, the insistence of nobles on parliamentarism only made things worse, and not only on practical level - it caused atrophy of common values which plauges Poland up until the present day, basically Pole can look only in the past and find almost only: "freedom" in it, but is "freedom" a good cornerstone of society, even most democratic and liberal now? Even England had the periods in it's history when it was skewed towards autocracy and priority of collective over individual , and despite how it seems like, it might be not necessarily a bad things, as it allows to find some solace, some escape from individual, daily life (which obviously has lots of bad moments, because nobody's perfect) in history and Pole barely has that, the cult of freedom means ultimate, grasping loneliness.
Especially, when this "liberty" is limited to single class - and this class was closed at the time. Also, szlachta was scared of absolutum dominium, somehow nobody noticed that oligarchia magnacka can be problem as well.
In addition to these faults of divorcing the individual from the common(wealth) and only doing that for a group of people who made it impossible to ennoble commoners except for military service (a cruel joke considering the PLC's military record under John II Casimir and beyond), I also think making foreigners eligible to the throne was a mistake. You saw part of how it could go wrong with Henry Valois-- he ruled for less than a year before realizing "oh wow my brother died time to go rule France". Stephen Bathory then showed how it could go right, maybe-- long and militarily successful reign. But then the three Vasas were a mixed bag-- on balance, their constant antagonization of Sweden was probably not worth it if they couldn't actually fight Sweden, never mind fighting Sweden and Russia and the Ottomans all at once. Wasn't the whole point of electing foreigners to make alliances, not sow generations of enmity?

In the end, electing unknown second sons from abroad means electing people who you do not know at all, whose only immediately apparent quality is how much money they have. Meanwhile the Polish families, who know each other all too well, stay out of the spotlight so that they can snipe at each other more freely.

Funny thing about August II - he was too clever by half. He was mostly right about the cause of problems in Poland. And his idea of how to fix it and push Wettins into power equal to France, Habsburgs and Great Brittain wasn't really that bad. The problem was that there was no good place for them to expand, since Saxony wasn't ready to confront to take and protect Moldavia, and nobody expected that young King of Sweden will be called "The Lion from the North" in the future.
Swedish Lions of the North were a thing of the past in the time of Wettin Poland-- Augustus II lost to the last of them, but Russia made sure Sweden never produced another one.
 
Stephen Bathory then showed how it could go right, maybe-- long and militarily successful reign.
Well, Batory made one mistake that was disastorus in the long - giving Jan Zamoyski hetman position for life created many problems. It's not like it was so popular decision bak in the day either. Yet it created very problematic consensus in the future. And what is funny that somehow nobody blames it for it.
You saw part of how it could go wrong with Henry Valois-- he ruled for less than a year before realizing "oh wow my brother died time to go rule France".
To be fair, judging from how he did in France, I think it's safe to say that he was hardly strong leader material.
But then the three Vasas were a mixed bag-- on balance, their constant antagonization of Sweden was probably not worth it if they couldn't actually fight Sweden, never mind fighting Sweden and Russia and the Ottomans all at once. Wasn't the whole point of electing foreigners to make alliances, not sow generations of enmity?
Since szachta was strongly against any important functions for royal sons, there was no real way to "test them" , and they had limited possibilities to gain experience.

And in defence of Zygmunt III - it's not like he could just let it go - even szlachta supported his claims for swedish crown. The problem was - they supported it, but didn't want to pay for it. That's the general problem with how Commonwealth worked - everyone wanted king to be ambitious in foreign policy, yet he supposed to do it for his own money. Also he supposed to invest in country, without any assurance that he will gain something from it in return.
 
Especially, when this "liberty" is limited to single class - and this class was closed at the time. Also, szlachta was scared of absolutum dominium, somehow nobody noticed that oligarchia magnacka can be problem as well.

Funny thing about August II - he was too clever by half. He was mostly right about the cause of problems in Poland. And his idea of how to fix it and push Wettins into power equal to France, Habsburgs and Great Brittain wasn't really that bad. The problem was that there was no good place for them to expand, since Saxony wasn't ready to confront to take and protect Moldavia, and nobody expected that young King of Sweden will be called "The Lion from the North" in the future.

Well, new generation of historians are wary of calling PLC an oligarchy - magnates were never even formally separated from the rest of nobility, it's just central institutions of the state stopped working and they did so because of principles introduced by middle nobility like unanimity ("liberum veto" was executionist movement idea, free election of king).
Yeah, Augustus couldn't know that Charles would be such genius but even with Charles defeated and Livonia in Wettin possesion, there would be still civil war, even IOTL we had "konfederacja tarnogrodzka" which resulted in Peter I being called to solve the dispute between king and his subject and "sejm niemy" so while odds would be stacked more in Augustus favour, he'd need to be very quick in winning civil war because if it drags on too long Peter or some other foreign power will intervene.
Not to mention even after Augustus's sole victory, society would still think golden liberty was good and actively sabotage any Augustus's policy.

rance had its big "anti-absolutist" moment in the Fronde

Frenchmen never built an entire identity for that, for Polish elite "anti-absolutism" came really close to be dominant factor of whole Polish identity. As far as taxation is involved, Augustus gathered it IOTL under pretence of hosting Saxon army, he created "Generalny Komisariat Saski" (in English: "General Saxon Chamber") which did gather unofficial taxes, so I suppose had he won decisively it'd continue - the problem is, it would be really difficult to even get to that point.
Commoners were politically passive during the whole existence of PLC and I suppose merchant class would be more upset about nobility granting protection to Jews at their expense (despite it being true or not true, a lot of PLC's merchant class felt that it is a case, the most prominent anti-Semitic pamphlets in PLC came out of merchant class), but it didn't mean much in the grander scheme of things due to it's inaction.

Catherine II's environment didn't come from nowhere-- she built it, working from precedent but making past into present by her own actions. If the Wettins do not have the ability to come in and be "Great" right away, they might have an inclination to be "Terrible" i

It came from long line of monarchs before her who all (despite them sometimes being stupid) wielded almost unchecked power and that was basis Catherine could work on.
The principle of republicanism was very uprooted in PLC and that made being "the Terrible" very hard - political class of PLC believed very hard in compromise and even when an envoy threw a butthurt about such trivial topic as granting the citizens of the circle which elected him fishing in all lakes in his province and threatened to dissolve parliament upon that (did I mention that PLC did grant every single envoy - counterpart of British MP right to dissolve parliament at will?) the rest still try to convince him peacefully instead of beating him into pulp (as it would be done in almost every other country in that time) and the ruling elite believed that to be natural order of things.
So I think at that point, it was unsalvageable or at least, very hard to salvage.

Stephen Bathory then showed how it could go right, maybe-- long and militarily successful reign

No, Bathory wasn't anywhere near succesful reign - he practically butchered king's judicial power (Charles I of England said that bishops and judges are backbone of every king's power so it shows importance of it) giving most of it to courts elected by nobility (those courts proved to be absolutely inept at judgement since there were no formal requirements to join it, just election was sufficient so there were 18 years old elected with no knowledge of laws) and made the office of hetman (top general) given for life, rather than dismissable.
Henry de Valois did better job than him considering up until his escape he didn't even swear upon so called "Henrician articles" and rather swiftly evaded some limitations of royal power.
Also Polish Vasas were closest thing to native dynasty PLC ever had in that period, Sigismund III was son of Polish princess and generally was seen by his subjects as more Jagiellon than Vasa and Vladislaus IV and John II Casimir were both born and raised in Poland, so how they were foreigners?
 
Also Polish Vasas were closest thing to native dynasty PLC ever had in that period, Sigismund III was son of Polish princess and generally was seen by his subjects as more Jagiellon than Vasa and Vladislaus IV and John II Casimir were both born and raised in Poland, so how they were foreigners?
I agree about his sons, but wasn't Sigismund raised in Sweden? It doesn't really matter-- rather than foreigners as such, I'm more concerned about people with extensive foreign commitments. The Romanovs married into minor German families, but the Sejm elected people directly adjacent to powerful foreign kings, and I'm not sure what they hoped to gain from that. Prestige? Security? Stephen Bathory's main rival in the election was the Holy Roman Emperor, that doesn't seem very safe.

In the case of the Vasas, it seems to have cost the possibility of a better relationship with Sweden, and it's not like Sweden really gained anything by laying Poland out. Prussia rode Sweden's coattails until it didn't need them anymore, because Russia was on the scene now.
 
I agree about his sons, but wasn't Sigismund raised in Sweden? It doesn't really matter-- rather than foreigners as such, I'm more concerned about people with extensive foreign commitments. The Romanovs married into minor German families, but the Sejm elected people directly adjacent to powerful foreign kings, and I'm not sure what they hoped to gain from that. Prestige? Security? Stephen Bathory's main rival in the election was the Holy Roman Emperor, that doesn't seem very safe.

The Polish nobility got a king with no native power base and they avoided one of their own getting a stronger power base as king. The Vasas were something of a exception in that they were a native dynasty in everything but name. But the whole point about the Wettins was to keep the Polish central power weak.

In the case of the Vasas, it seems to have cost the possibility of a better relationship with Sweden, and it's not like Sweden really gained anything by laying Poland out. Prussia rode Sweden's coattails until it didn't need them anymore, because Russia was on the scene now.

I have a hard seeing the Swedes and Polds avoiding coming to blows, the only thing which could have saved the Poles was if Prince Magnus of Denmark succeed in setting up the kingdom of Livonia as a buffer state between the three powers. At least the Vasas delivered a mostly stable dynasty and in the end came out with a surviving Commonwealth.
 
Its an interesting question. I won't try to comment on the Polish side considering other people here are far more knowledgeable. I guess looking at Saxony in the HRE its hard to see how this would materially change its circumstances. I think the comparison between Brandenburg and Saxony is tricky and I don't really think that the relative growth of the former vs the latter can be ascribed to Saxony wasting away its time/resources/wealth/focus in Poland. A couple points, some of which have been touched on.

1. Brandenburg had more opportunity for growth. For one it was given Magdeburg, Halberstadt and Minden explicitly in compensation for giving up Pomerania to Sweden but then it went on to conquer Pomerania anyways. It also has the opportunity to grow Prussia without upsetting anything within the HRE. And his intervention in the War of the Spanish Succession even netted him a slice of Spanish Guelders in the west. Saxony has no real territorial pretensions in the HRE or elsewhere so I don't see territorial aggrandizement as a viable.

2. Frederick William was better a playing the game than the Wettins. He constantly played the Habsburgs and French off each other in a quest for subsidies or political/diplomatic concessions. It didn't always work out, like when he was abandoned by Austria and forced to give up what he gained from Sweden after beating them at Fehrbellin, but overall he did quite well. The Wettins on the other hand were almost always pro-Imperial. Their policy generally sought to uphold the status quo in the HRE, perhaps in part because it already had a premier position in the HRE as a Prince Elector, head of the Corpus Evangelicorum and Imperial Vicar for the part of the Empire under Saxon law. But in the long run that position brought less tangible benefit than Brandenburg's savvy diplomacy and military adventurism.

3. And as for status, the aforementioned position of Saxony will diminish as the other Electors advance in the scramble for Royal status at the close of the 17th century. Brandenburg gained the crown in Prussia. Savoy carried on a pretension to the Cypriot crown before gaining a real one in Sicily. Hanover first secured its elevation to Prince Elector then gained the British crown. And Bavaria, which went after the Polish and Spanish thrones without success, briefly gained the Imperial title itself. I don't know how Saxony would interact in that diplomatic game if the Wettins didn't have the Polish throne.

So I think Saxony's fate would depend on how Frederick Augustus acquits himself during the 1690s. He wasn't an effective commander against the Turks but his troops were definitely needed so at the very least he could net some subsidies for continuing to fight them or to throw his armies against the French in the west. Perhaps with some skill he could develop the Saxon state militarily with the effective use of subsidies. Diplomatically with traditional ties to the Welfs and to Denmark perhaps Saxony would be a link between Britain-Hanover and Austria going into the 18th century. So maybe his successor could make something of that role. But I don't foresee any really big developments for Saxony.
 
I agree about his sons, but wasn't Sigismund raised in Sweden? It doesn't really matter-- rather than foreigners as such, I'm more concerned about people with extensive foreign commitments. The Romanovs married into minor German families, but the Sejm elected people directly adjacent to powerful foreign kings, and I'm not sure what they hoped to gain from that. Prestige? Security? Stephen Bathory's main rival in the election was the Holy Roman Emperor, that doesn't seem very safe.

In the case of the Vasas, it seems to have cost the possibility of a better relationship with Sweden, and it's not like Sweden really gained anything by laying Poland out. Prussia rode Sweden's coattails until it didn't need them anymore, because Russia was on the scene now.

He was, so while he might be foreigner he still had blood connection to previous dynasty and was heir to Sweden when he was elected so no one could predict that his uncle will usurp him and if that didn't happen PLC and Sweden would be in PU.
IMHO the biggest problem were nonsensical principles of government and how uprooted they were in ruling class.
 
He was, so while he might be foreigner he still had blood connection to previous dynasty and was heir to Sweden when he was elected so no one could predict that his uncle will usurp him and if that didn't happen PLC and Sweden would be in PU.
IMHO the biggest problem were nonsensical principles of government and how uprooted they were in ruling class.

Everyone should have predicted that the Swedes would usurp him, the Poles had very limited ability to intervene in Sweden and the Swedes were Lutherans.
 
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