I never intend to be rude to anyone on these forums, but what a stupid and insulting question.
Is Nazi rule worse than colonial conditions?
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The crazy shit about the Nazis was that had bastards won a total victory in Europe and around the Med, they would have likely started targeting other ethnic/culture groups to be sent to the extermination camps! Their racial policies made 0 sense. The lunatics would have likely gone after the Turks or Arabs if they had chance.
Colonial rule was absolutely horrendous no question and anyone saying other wise needs to go read a book about the topic. But ultimately colonial rule intended to make profits for the mother country, land is useless if you don't have people working it after all.
Colonial rule was absolutely horrendous no question and anyone saying other wise needs to go read a book about the topic. But ultimately colonial rule intended to make profits for the mother country, land is useless if you don't have people working it after all.
The Nazis didn't even have to win the war to be worse, they were exterminating people on an intentional, industrial scale.
A lot of more modern colonial rule (Late XIXth conquest wave) had what we'd call humanitarian concerns.
They built hospitals and schools. Those people had to be subjugated and civilised for their own good (in the language of the time).
There were... other concerns of course, but that aspect was clearly there, and implemented.
If they had to be mercilessly crushed before they could be taught "nos ancêtres les gaulois ", then be it
Even Belgian Congo, once it was administered by the Belgian State, moved to that model
Yeah, I kinda have to agree with you that as Nazis were simultaneously gratuitiously violent and comparatively incompetent in management, economy, science, etc., it’s pretty obvious their rule was much worse than the colonial ones.
I think that these are two separate policies. The NAZI started off with a nasty policy, living space and all that which might have similarities to some of the worst colonial excesses but they did not start off with an extermination policy. The reason a significant number of Jews from Germany survived was that they were allowed to go before the policy of mass killing was formed. The policy towards the Holocaust is called a twisted road. So I am not so sure we can say its one policy. Hold this thought, please.
Indeed. That guy is less than human so its fine to steal, kill and take from them. Interesting here it rarely involves killing good looking women.
What we could say is that the NAZIs had a nasty colonial policy and they had a genocide policy.
I do not think that anyone here would disagree with this. I am sure that it speeded up the process of killing. The lack of food, for example, meant that people had to be quickly killed. The withdrawal from an area meant that the killing had to speed up before the German army withdrew.
TDM
Kicked
There were identifying, collecting and putting undesirable of all type in situations where them dying was a natural result from the beginning. Teh concentration camps were still death camps they just took longer to get the end result
Then there more direct stuff like Aktion T4, which while it may have really kicked off in 1939+ had the groundwork layed earlier.
"Pfannmüller advocated killing by a gradual decrease of food, which he believed was more merciful than poison injections" Awww what a softy
if you like, but I'd say they overlapped so much it's a distinction without a difference, or put it another way "we'll take the stuff of the people we want to kill whether it's their gold fillings or their farm land"
I think you missed my meaning, the Nazis would have be worse if they had either won or been doing this while not also fighting.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Solution
The Final Solution and the rest, start with the attack on Russia when "German top echelon began to pursue Hitler's new anti-Semitic plan to eradicate, rather than expel, Jews." However, the colonial policy was already in place long before then.
samcster94
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The Nazis remind me of the Khmer Rouge more than a stereotypical colonial regime in Africa.
TDM
Kicked
Like I said the concentration camps were already death camps it just they took a bit longer, the final solution wasn't a whole new plan it was just a new way of doing what they had already been doing. There had been less organised mass killings before that. The invasion of Russia meant that they had suddenly larger numbers to deal with so had to change how they went about killing them
As pointed out aktion T4 started in ernest in 1939 (and was planned before that)
Execution and widespread death-by-labour camps are normally considered as a response to the Soviet PoW starvation experiment combined with the degradation in capacity of the “boutique” massacres of the einsatzgruppen. While the ghettos were functioning as death through labour sites the shift seems connected with the natural experiment of inadequate feeding of PoWs in inadequate camps.
There’s also the parallel issue of the attempts to preserve the human dignity of Germans. The ramshackle approaches to mass death in the east were viewed as offensive and messy. Consider the provision of gas vans to massacre teams.
There’s also the parallel issue of the attempts to preserve the human dignity of Germans. The ramshackle approaches to mass death in the east were viewed as offensive and messy. Consider the provision of gas vans to massacre teams.
There was a French novel about that bit a few years back. It was saying that most of the ethnic cleansing in the East was not due to gas or camps but organised executions by firing squad, which took a toll on the soldiers
Much of this is down to the moral courage of the head of the French census organisation who saw to it that his card index got "knocked over" and that "records were lost" during the evacuation from Paris and consequently was "unable to provide" statistical information on who was Jewish and where and the Nazis and Vichy had to operate piecemeal relying on local co-operation and denunciations. His opposite number in the Netherlands co-operated with the occupiers and a much higher proportion of Dutch Jews were arrested and sent to the camps.
TDM
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OK but can you support that claim?
The concentration camps were already working and starving people to death, on top of this Action 14f13 (itself an extension of Aktion T4 which has already been mentioned several time now but you haven't responded to) started before the Final Solution / Wannsee conference in 1942. Action 14f13 was used to further select those unable to work for elimination, of course other criteria were used as well. And since the concentration camp conditions were not designed to prolong the working life of their in mates this directly feeds into the selections process
Now OK yes it did took longer to die of overwork and starvation in a concentration camp even if you avoided selection, and that does mean that the death toll took longer to amass. But that doesn't mean that the magic date of either the invasion of Russia or the Wannsee conference in 1942 is that relevant since the work put into bringing about those deaths was already well underway with full knowledge of the repercussions
The final death camps were scaled up versions of the SS Killing centers used in action 14f13, these themselves came out of the earlier methods used in Aktion T4, and in fact the same personal, knowledge and skills were often used right through this progression.
Of course on top of that there are all the ongoing more adhoc mass killings as mentioned above
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Depends, you mean European Colonialism? Then yes, it's far worse- killing a bunch of people because you want the resources that they're sitting on is a bit different from systematically exterminating anyone who you don't like, even if both are morally bankrupt actions.
Now, Japanese colonialism on the other hand? They're not too dissimilar, while the Japanese didn't go for systematic extermination, they did purposefully cause massacres half the time, and IIRC they cannibalized dead Chinese soldiers as an intimidation tactic during the 2nd Sino-Japanese war.
Now, Japanese colonialism on the other hand? They're not too dissimilar, while the Japanese didn't go for systematic extermination, they did purposefully cause massacres half the time, and IIRC they cannibalized dead Chinese soldiers as an intimidation tactic during the 2nd Sino-Japanese war.
Your guess is as good as mine. (Though, in that instance it was Americans.)
The Germans were worse 1000 times over
Colonialism had its awful experiences, even genocidal experiences such as German SW Africa or the Congo in the context of suppression resistance BUT it was never the stated or operational goal of Colonialism to willfully kill everyone who lives there; it was about awful ruthless economic exploitation.
Germany deployed Einsatzcommando's in 1939 in Poland; full stop already worse than Colonialism. An entire regiment of murderers deployed directly behind the advancing army with government pre-approved kill lists; by 1943; fully functioning industrial death camps, situated on rail lines, killing 400k people a month; Leopold or Goring's father where not even in the same ballpark compared to what the Germans did 1939-1945
Colonialism had its awful experiences, even genocidal experiences such as German SW Africa or the Congo in the context of suppression resistance BUT it was never the stated or operational goal of Colonialism to willfully kill everyone who lives there; it was about awful ruthless economic exploitation.
Germany deployed Einsatzcommando's in 1939 in Poland; full stop already worse than Colonialism. An entire regiment of murderers deployed directly behind the advancing army with government pre-approved kill lists; by 1943; fully functioning industrial death camps, situated on rail lines, killing 400k people a month; Leopold or Goring's father where not even in the same ballpark compared to what the Germans did 1939-1945
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