What is the plausibility of and if any, possible ways a roman state could be created in India, basically the indo-greek state but this time roman and obviously formed later like the 2nd to 5th centuries ad? Doesn't have to be huge or hegemonic (could become a large empire in india but doesn't start off this way), just a lasting influential regional power that survives for a few centuries maybe into the 1400s
Indo-roman state
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It's pretty tough. Perhaps if you have some sort of Roman Persia, you could see an entity like the Indo-Sassanid kingdom arise in the India-Persia frontier which could maybe split off from Rome.
The only way I can possibly imagine a Indo-Roman state off the top of my head wouldn't be in India, but say, a city state in modern day Oman founded by Roman and Indian merchants.
Or, far less likely is the Gupta Empire and Eastern Roman Empire partition Persia and a buffer state is created between them.
Not my period of knowledge, but I like the idea of the former, an Indo-Roman merchant republic in Oman, or maybe Yemen
I have not but now I will
I too like the idea of a hybrid merchant republic in oman, it would be amazing to see what the roman, indo-aryan, and arabic cultures fuse into and create.The only way I can possibly imagine a Indo-Roman state off the top of my head wouldn't be in India, but say, a city state in modern day Oman founded by Roman and Indian merchants.
Or, far less likely is the Gupta Empire and Eastern Roman Empire partition Persia and a buffer state is created between them.
Not my period of knowledge, but I like the idea of the former, an Indo-Roman merchant republic in Oman, or maybe Yemen
Thanks for the answers, I'll say it now that I got the idea from ck2 when I used the ruler designer to create a roman character in Delhi and have been trying to expand if it weren't for the damn Ghaznavids, I at least managed to form the kingdom of Delhi and am no longer a duke.
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A very ephemeral Roman conquest of Persia, that creates a Romano-Bactria on the old Greco-Bactria as the province retreats, would be fascinating. (Obviously, the Legio IX Hispana would have to be lost there as well for cliche purposes.)
Perhaps it would be called Transoxiana and Sogdians would eventually became the majority culture of the state.
How about instead of an Indo-Roman state in the sense of being influenced by Latin and Italic culture we create a hyper militaristic oligarchic republic in the mold of Rome? It could be just as interesting to see.
Republicanism that was familiar to the Hellenes had a long history in India as Megasthenes writes when he talks about the republican Janapadas in the foothills of the Himalayas that Chandragupta had not yet annexed. But a diarchy with a senate? No.
But it’s not impossible. The Kuru kingdom just like the Romans had abandoned their monarchical system despite holding semi-mythical founders like Súdas, Janamejaya and Parikshit in extremely high regard as the ones who coalesced their states, ascribed it’s laws, identities and capital cities and determined the socio-religious Vedic rituals of the state respectively. Very similar to Romulus, Numa Pompilius and Tullius Hostilius.
The republican system saw Sangha assemblies being led by a Rājaśabdôpájīvinah followed by two lower positions of a Upárārajas and a Sáinyadhīpati with the former as a counter balance to the first and the latter being the military leader appointed by the Sangha in times of military crisis. Hell the Kurus even had to deal with a Brennus analogue which is what caused their down fall in the first place, when a tribal offshoot of the semi-sedentary Trigartas known as the Salvas attacked and sacked Indraprastha under their chief Citramanas Grhikya. It might not be too hard to see the Rājaśabdôpájīvinah title abandoned and two equal Upárājas rise in the vein of consuls. Avert this and you could see power continue to remain in Kuru instead of moving down the Gangetic plain to first Panchala, then Kosala and finally Magadha which kickstarted Magadhan domination of the Indian sub-continent (or atleast north of the Narmada) for the better part of a millenium.
In fact if a bunch of butterflies are wrangled and Rome rises in a form recognisable to us and still dominates the Mediterranean they might have new found respect for these Curuvii that lie beyond the wastes of Persia. A fellow militaristic and expansionist republic, this revived Kuru kingdom could probably extend power into Bactria.
Republicanism that was familiar to the Hellenes had a long history in India as Megasthenes writes when he talks about the republican Janapadas in the foothills of the Himalayas that Chandragupta had not yet annexed. But a diarchy with a senate? No.
But it’s not impossible. The Kuru kingdom just like the Romans had abandoned their monarchical system despite holding semi-mythical founders like Súdas, Janamejaya and Parikshit in extremely high regard as the ones who coalesced their states, ascribed it’s laws, identities and capital cities and determined the socio-religious Vedic rituals of the state respectively. Very similar to Romulus, Numa Pompilius and Tullius Hostilius.
The republican system saw Sangha assemblies being led by a Rājaśabdôpájīvinah followed by two lower positions of a Upárārajas and a Sáinyadhīpati with the former as a counter balance to the first and the latter being the military leader appointed by the Sangha in times of military crisis. Hell the Kurus even had to deal with a Brennus analogue which is what caused their down fall in the first place, when a tribal offshoot of the semi-sedentary Trigartas known as the Salvas attacked and sacked Indraprastha under their chief Citramanas Grhikya. It might not be too hard to see the Rājaśabdôpájīvinah title abandoned and two equal Upárājas rise in the vein of consuls. Avert this and you could see power continue to remain in Kuru instead of moving down the Gangetic plain to first Panchala, then Kosala and finally Magadha which kickstarted Magadhan domination of the Indian sub-continent (or atleast north of the Narmada) for the better part of a millenium.
In fact if a bunch of butterflies are wrangled and Rome rises in a form recognisable to us and still dominates the Mediterranean they might have new found respect for these Curuvii that lie beyond the wastes of Persia. A fellow militaristic and expansionist republic, this revived Kuru kingdom could probably extend power into Bactria.
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this is actually a very good idea and im amazed at how much i didnt know about india. And also brings the question, if the states are so similar would they eventually try unifying?
Probably not given that they are from a world apart and the Romans still consider them dumb barbarians and the Kurus likewise think of the Romans as ugly Mlecchas
. But it still would be a cool thought for them to see each other as 'fallen kinsmen' from across the world and maybe come up with an epic ala excerpts in the Aeneid and the Mahabharata which talk of a common point of origin, indirectly leading to future scholars ITTL learning about proto-Indo-Europeans.
Yeah but that's only Multan and a small hinterland.
And involves a sentient gem from the far far future
I mean, the Malwa Plateau isn't exactly a "small hinterland," and that's the core of the Malwa Empire...
And yes granted it's ASB to the absolute max. But I still love it
Lol same, Valentinian and Anastasios are hard to beat.
But the Roman enclave was only the Multan confluence. But the Malwa plateau is huge.
That's a very interesting idea.
If the PoD is far back enough (perhaps in the 7th century BCE) to butterfly away the rise of the Buddha and/or Buddhism, could the "Kuru Republic" end up adopting the atheist and hedonist doctrine of Charvaka to justify its politics and to discredit the lineage of the overthrown monarchy? Now that would be something original.
The only way I can possibly imagine a Indo-Roman state off the top of my head wouldn't be in India, but say, a city state in modern day Oman founded by Roman and Indian merchants.
Not my period of knowledge, but I like the idea of the former, an Indo-Roman merchant republic in Oman, or maybe Yemen
This idea is pretty cool. Oman is more likely due to its position between the two areas, and it's greater connection to India. It being a republic is actually quite likely, since wherever there were isolated "Romans" outside of the empire (ie. the Adriatic city-states after the collapse), they formed an oligarchical republic. This city state could grow quite substantially if it inherits Rome's militarism, possibly to the size of the kingdom of Muscat, taking the modern UAE, maybe parts of Yemen and even Somalia.
Some general stuff:
It would be interesting to see how the Roman class system blends with the Indian Caste system. If a warrior caste were to exist, it would be substantially larger (proportional to the population) than the Indian Kshatriyas, and they would be below the landholding class. An elite warrior class would still be supported by fairly well trained levies from the peasant class.
It would (in a simplified form) probably be something like this:
- Patricians/Vaishyas
- A political subclass of the patricians (Senatores)
- A subclass of the patricians who serve as priests (Sacerdos/Brahmins)
- A subclass of patricians dedicated to warfare (possibly cavalry, since military rank was at some points in Roman history determined by the ability to afford a horse, though this is less likely in the desert, maybe certain weapons or armor distinguish them) (Equites or Kshatriyas, taking the Indian name, or a bastardization of it is more likely due to the lack of horses)
- Sudra/Plebs, you know, classic peasant class
- Slaves/untouchables
Also, considering the similarities between Hinduism and Greco-Roman paganism, there could be an interesting fusion of the two...
100% possible. However remember that the Romans became even more traditional and conformist following the fall of their monarchy and that is just as possible in the case of the Kuru state.
Also just a throwaway but Carvaka philosophy being identified as hedonistic was more about Buddhist and Jain scholars demonizing a thought system they saw as evil. Carvaka thought was more materialistic than anything and certainly didn't support hedonistic behaviour in any form but advocated restraint for the sake of self-improvement.
EDIT: If anything it's telling that Indra was seen as more hedonistic and wasteful in his sacrifices as were other Vedic deities by the time of the Bhagavata Purana's composition.
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A Greco-Egyptian admiral (who, naturally, identifies as the best and last of the Romans) departs from Berenice one last time, before the Arabs make Egypt their own. Bemoaning his fate, he arrives in Kerala with all intent of seeking refuge and peacefully living out his days. There, he finds that the local Chera authorities are in crisis, and will surrender any day to the Pandyas to their east. Resolving to make himself a second Aeneas, this Greco-Egyptian-Roman-Trojan marries a princess, enlists the St. Thomas Christians as auxiliaries and advisors, and makes a new Rome in Calicut and its environs...
...or something like that
...or something like that
The Apostle Thomas is believed to have traveled to the Tamil portion of present day India (southern India) in 50 AD and converted several local families. He traveled to specific ports on the subcontinent because significant Jewish communities were already there, and at this time Christians were still part of the larger Jewish community.
So, it is entirely possible for other Roman citizens to travel to India at this time, either on their own or with the Apostle Thomas. In order to have a Roman style state result from such travels, the travelers would have to be numerous and organized.
So, how about an exodus of Roman religious exiles setting up a colony in India? They could be Christians fleeing Pagan tyranny, Pagans fleeing Christian tyranny (4th or 5th century), or eastern mystic Pagans fleeing traditional Roman Pagan tyranny... or some other combination.