in U.S. circa 1990, “nanny state” takes the intellectual space of “political correctness”

[JesterBL]

It should be noted that, looked at from the perspective of public health, a higher legal drinking age seems to work. US rates of liver cirrhosis are lower than in Europe and there are less deaths due to underage drinking, despite Europe having a supposedly healthier drinking culture.

 

[GeographyDude]

A “nanny state” critique makes no head way when Detective Inspector X runs all the heroin in Sydney. Everyone knows that state agents currently dictate conduct, unless you want to be wired to an old stove on a one way fishing trip. Australians don’t talk about it but there’s old bad things people done (and fresh new ones they do).

Obviously, this kind of shit happens in the United States, too. For example, I think FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover just didn’t think the old-style Mafia was a problem.

As far as police officers being actively involved in crimes themselves, to me, the question is why a particular officer can continue in this way so long, often for years? Even when other officers suspect.

And I think the mindset is that you better really be sure before you accuse a fellow officer of something like this. A mindset of you better “really have your ducks in order.”

So, high threshold before an investigation.

And please contrast this with the business principle of keeping honest people honest. Or, better yet the cash management of Las Vegas casinos. This one guy was talking in an educational video and he said something very much like, “ Look, my mother is the most ethical, moral person in the entire world. But if Mom’s dealing blackjack, she’s going to be on camera and that’s just all there is to it.”

 

[GeographyDude]

President Bush, Sr.

May 4, 1991

“ . . . The notion of political correctness has ignited controversy across the land. And although the movement arises from the laudable desire to sweep away the debris of racism and sexism and hatred, it replaces old prejudice with new ones. It declares certain topics off-limits, certain expression off-limits, even certain gestures off-limits.
What began as a crusade for civility has soured into a cause of conflict and even censorship. . . ”

Excerpts From President's Speech to University of Michigan Graduates (Published 1991)

www.nytimes.com

The view of “political correctness” as a boogeyman and as an intellectual trap certainly has had its share of legs!

 

[overoceans]

^ Of course, when he wasn't spouting off about the sacred virtues of free-expression, GHW Bush also found ample time to campaign for the criminalization of flag-burning.

 

[marathag]

I’m a big believer that the one-two punch of MANUFACTURING + UNIONS produced such a large number of middle-income jobs,

And restriction on supply of workers.
Unions could not get traction, till the cut-off of cheap, readily replaceable scab labor

First, in the 1900-1920s with the restriction on immigration of first the Chinese, then most everywhere that wasn't Northern Europe

So when the Strikes started in the 1930s, there was no huge supply of people fresh off the Boat to replace the locked out workers, or the ones killed or driven off by the Goon Squad.
No more cheap replacements. The Companies had to start dealing with the workers
Lasted till the end of the restricted immigration.
Cesar Chavez noted the problem that illegal immigration caused his movement to get Farm Workers protectors.

Then add in Automation, the best way to replace workers. Machines are a multiplier. The more complex, the more effective
That's another reason why Wages decoupled from gains in Productivity

 

[GeographyDude]

Jan. 1991

Is it really so objectionable to be asked to use Native American rather than Indian? You don’t necessarily have to do it every time, or even at all.

And the irony is, for a movement which purports to be against elites, the anti-PC movement is very leader driven!

Let's be honest - "Animal Companion" instead of Pet is where many folks will draw the line. It might even being a reasonable dividing between respectful and "Come on now!"

Yes, but that’s kind of the fun part of political correctness. It’s like describing a fat person as “horizontally challenged.” All the same, many pet owners will describe their pet as a member of the family and mean every ounce of it.

But what if a 23-year-old kind of annoying lectures us?

And I think a lot comes down to that. We’re envisioning a self-righteous person correcting us in a tedious and annoying fashion. But I don’t know if my getting sore is the answer. What can’t I find it slightly humorous and amusing? And I think I can, at least some of the time.

 

[Aisha Clan-Clan]

Reacting to that kind of correction/lecturing in any manner besides any response fitting the "psychotic overreaction" category just encourages them to keep getting worse and worse.

 

[CalBear]

Reacting to that kind of correction/lecturing in any manner besides any response fitting the "psychotic overreaction" category just encourages them to keep getting worse and worse.

Yep.

I was in my 40s before I figured that out.

 

[GeographyDude]

It should be noted that, looked at from the perspective of public health, a higher legal drinking age seems to work. US rates of liver cirrhosis are lower than in Europe and there are less deaths due to underage drinking, despite Europe having a supposedly healthier drinking culture.

In general, I am anti-alcohol. 3 of my 4 grandparents were alcoholic, so damn straight, I have those genes. When I go out, I will have either zero drinks or one drink. And I can tell you from personal experience that zero drinks is usually respected more.

Still, I’d rather put more of the burden on corporations.

For example, with tobacco we could pioneer the concept of a quasi-legal business. Sale of tobacco is made illegal, but occasional exceptions are made. One consequence is that the books are wide open, and we are very confident that zero money is spent on advertisement, especially on product placement on movies. Movies are of course still free to use tobacco however they like.

Somehow, it doesn’t feel right to go this hard-core against alcohol companies.

 

[JesterBL]

I mean, if you think about it the US has finally pulled smoking rules up to alcohol rules (minimum age 21).

 

[GeographyDude]

^ Of course, when he wasn't spouting off about the sacred virtues of free-expression, GHW Bush also found ample time to campaign for the criminalization of flag-burning.

I think a majority of Americans wanted flag-burning to be against the law. I wish my fellow citizens had felt differently.

 

[marathag]

In general, I am anti-alcohol. 3 of my 4 grandparents were alcoholic, so damn straight, I have those genes. When I go out, I will have either zero drinks or one drink. And I can tell you from personal experience that zero drinks is usually respected more.

Still, I’d rather put more of the burden on corporations.

For example, with tobacco we could pioneer the concept of a quasi-legal business. Sale of tobacco is made illegal, but occasional exceptions are made. One consequence is that the books are wide open, and we are very confident that zero money is spent on advertisement, especially on product placement on movies. Movies are of course still free to use tobacco however they like.

Somehow, it doesn’t feel right to go this hard-core against alcohol companies.

If tobacco is so terrible then it should be banned, not taxed.
Same for Alcohol.
Governments love that 'Sin Tax' money, though.

 

[GeographyDude]

. . . First, in the 1900-1920s with the restriction on immigration of first the Chinese, then most everywhere that wasn't Northern Europe

So when the Strikes started in the 1930s, there was no huge supply of people fresh off the Boat to replace the locked out workers, . . .

I love the fact that you focused on big systematic factors.

And not flashy personality factors, such as “decline in Protestant work ethic.” And we humans so gravitate to the flashy, like all the time, even though they usually get swamped by the big systemic.

PS Catholic persons work plenty hard, too. As do Hindu, Muslim, Jewish persons etc. Perhaps not Buddhist although in reality, I think Buddhist persons, too!

PSS And as someone who favors liberal immigration laws, yeah, this particular overlap of two topics is quite a challenge

 

[Aisha Clan-Clan]

If tobacco is so terrible then it should be banned, not taxed.
Same for Alcohol.
Governments love that 'Sin Tax' money, though.

well sin taxes/various regulations on the use of booze or smokes are both anti-poor. I've honestly never had the middle/upper-middle class mentality of favoring public intoxication laws/smoking bans/taxes on booze or smokes, from my POV it comes off as elitist, mean-spirited and pretty classist. I'd rather have somewhat more spending on health/slightly worse "public health" outcomes than have drinking ages, taxes on booze/smokes, propaganda against alcohol/tobacco, etc.

to make it more on topic, to reduce it you'd probably want to avoid alot of the "everyone is middle class" mindset of the modern US and in particular the post-late 70s intensification of it. The modern respectability bubble is EASY to avoid -- ford in '76 or simply a non-carter dem followed by bush/connally/anyone else but reagan. To kill the earlier form of it the simplest way is to avoid Eisenhower's presidency. Dewey in '48 followed by Kefauver in 52 could work.

 

[darklordoftech]

@GeographyDude

In 1996, Bob Dole said that Clinton was going too far with tv censorship, school uniforms, teen curfews, and tobacco regulation. In 2000, Bush ran against the Clinton/Gore/Lieberman censorship proposals.

California, Here Bush Comes, a Moderate on Immigration and Racial Quotas (Published 1999)

Gov George W Bush, campaigning for Republican Presidential nomination in California, casts self as more temperate than most Republican leaders on immigration and affirmative action; distances self from 1994 proposition that bars public services for illegal immigrants; refuses to endorse 1996...

www.nytimes.com

“Appealing to entertainment executives who believe that President Clinton and Mr. Gore unfairly fault Hollywood for violence, Mr. Bush said: ''All of us need to work together to change the culture. One industry alone does not bear all the brunt.''

 

[Stonepile]

You're mature enough to vote, get married and get killed for your country but you can't go out with your mates and have a pint? Insanity.

We have much more roads, longer drive times and more room for accidents involving drunken teen drivers.

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

You're either an adult with all the rights, privileges and obligations of an adult or you're not.

 

[Hcira1]

You're either an adult with all the rights, privileges and obligations of an adult or you're not.

Interestingly, before WWII the military draft age was 21. It got changed simply because we needed more soldiers. The voting age came down in the Vietnam era. However it was after both those things that the drinking age became 21 nationally.

Personally I would be in favor of moving the military age back up to 21 (and the voting age too tbh), but I know both of those things probably wouldn't be too popular.

 

[marktaha]

Difference between draft and volunteering. I would end curfews by withdrawing all federal aid from any city with one.

 

[marktaha]

well sin taxes/various regulations on the use of booze or smokes are both anti-poor. I've honestly never had the middle/upper-middle class mentality of favoring public intoxication laws/smoking bans/taxes on booze or smokes, from my POV it comes off as elitist, mean-spirited and pretty classist. I'd rather have somewhat more spending on health/slightly worse "public health" outcomes than have drinking ages, taxes on booze/smokes, propaganda against alcohol/tobacco, etc.

to make it more on topic, to reduce it you'd probably want to avoid alot of the "everyone is middle class" mindset of the modern US and in particular the post-late 70s intensification of it. The modern respectability bubble is EASY to avoid -- ford in '76 or simply a non-carter dem followed by bush/connally/anyone else but reagan. To kill the earlier form of it the simplest way is to avoid Eisenhower's presidency. Dewey in '48 followed by Kefauver in 52 could work.

Tax these things but don't ban them - tax cannabis in the same way. Indirect taxation is more voluntary in that nobody has to.smoke drink or bet.