Impact of an early unified Nepal in the 1400s

[Sarthak]

Jayasithi Malla of Nepa conquered around 1/3 of modern Nepal before dying of a disease as a middle aged man all things considered. Let's say he doesn't and by the time of his death, he has conquered enough territory that it vaguely resembles modern day Nepal.

Now i am interested in the impacts of this unification within nepal as well, however i doubt many know the answer to that in this site. So, my question is, what would be the impact of an early unified Nepal on India, China and Tibet with a single power controlling the land trade routes between India and China?

Calling in @Madhav Deval, @Brahman, @Goldensilver81

 

[Sarthak]

Since this involves China as well @darthfanta what do you think?

 

[Avrorrange]

Don’t know anything about Nepal,sorry.

 

[Brahman]

If Nepal was unified in 14th century instead 18th century drastically changes, for one, there would be a Stable State in the Subcontinent, one that is united by Language and Culture and seems to have much more robust foundations than any other Subcontinental States, Nepal would be perhaps bit bigger than in OTL, with Sikkim, Parts of Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand being attached to it, as such it would be a pretty big state, with great defensive geography and ability to raid the fertile plains of Indo Gangetic region and hide back in the Mountains, like how Afghans did, but on a bigger scale, raiding regions like Bengal, Punjab, Awadh, etc would have become an easy source of revenue for Nepal, but just like how Afghans under Durrani started building an empire, so would Nepal, and unlike Afghanistan, which is in middle of trade routes and surrounded by enemies, Nepal is safely tucked away in the Himalayas

With Timur Sacking Delhi, North India would again be in Chaos, allowing Nepal to swoop in and Conquer large parts of Indian Subcontinent, Such as parts Bengal, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Punjab, Bengal would be a very important province at it would give Nepal access to the sea, which would be instrumental for Nepal in order for it to be Independent in exports, Inevitable when another Pashtun Muslim power arises, there would be clashes with this new Nepali Empire, Both will win and lose some, but seeing how Afghans in OTL lost to an Ethnic Group was united under Cultural and Religious unity, The Sikhs, Nepal would have much easier time as they would have more time being established, they could also appeal to non Nepalis as fellow Hindu liberators against Islamic conquest, which will rile up support but create opposition as well

Let's say before age of Exploration, Nepal is empire, with Territories in OTL Nepal, Uttarakhand, North East, Bengal, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Punjab, Kashmir and Tibet, Would they would call their country would be Nepali, though a sizable portion will call it Bharat as it was what Hindus called the land, and Language would be Nepali, In Devanagari Script, it would be called Nepali, but would inevitably have loan words from other Indian Languages like Bengali, Punjabi etc

 

[Silver01]

I would like to add that i don't find it it likely that the ming dynasty would do much about it there is a lot of debate on how much influence the ming has over tibet but i don't think the ming dynasty would go out of its way to invade tibet if the nepalese conquered it but then again the rule of the yongle empeor would follow
And the ming emperor was the exception did for example he offered to send armies to unify Tibet under the Karmapa, but Deshin Shekpa didn't agree

So in this alternative timeline if they go north there might be a response from the empeor how this goes i can't say since I don't know much about the nepalese army

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

A Nepali empire that unites the valley is gonna have to play a very clever game to make sure the north indian states don't unite- if a hegemon in North india appears, their unity makes them tempting for expansion, and fragmentation would be the only thing that could keep them independent.

I tell you one thing that could be interesting- a confident Nepal asserting itself on the Jaunpur state so that when the Raja Ganesh coup happens, maybe the threat from the west isn't strong enough and there's a different outcome to that situation. Perhaps Jadu could be allowed to remain Hindu?

It would be interesting to have a Hindu dynasty operating in the Persian style of government in Bengal, like an eastern Vijay Nagar, but with a larger Muslim nobility.

 

[Sarthak]

Nepal was unified in 14th century instead 18th century drastically changes, for one, there would be a Stable State in the Subcontinent, one that is united by Language and Culture and seems to have much more robust foundations than any other Subcontinental States, Nepal would be perhaps bit bigger than in OTL, with Sikkim, Parts of Uttar Pradesh and Uttarakhand being attached to it, as such it would be a pretty big state, with great defensive geography and ability to raid the fertile plains of Indo Gangetic region and hide back in the Mountains, like how Afghans did, but on a bigger scale, raiding regions like Bengal, Punjab, Awadh, etc would have become an easy source of revenue for Nepal, but just like how Afghans under Durrani started building an empire, so would Nepal, and unlike Afghanistan, which is in middle of trade routes and surrounded by enemies, Nepal is safely tucked away in the Himalayas

Raids are possible I guess.

With Timur Sacking Delhi, North India would again be in Chaos, allowing Nepal to swoop in and Conquer large parts of Indian Subcontinent, Such as parts Bengal, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Punjab, Bengal would be a very important province at it would give Nepal access to the sea, which would be instrumental for Nepal in order for it to be Independent in exports, Inevitable when another Pashtun Muslim power arises, there would be clashes with this new Nepali Empire, Both will win and lose some, but seeing how Afghans in OTL lost to an Ethnic Group was united under Cultural and Religious unity, The Sikhs, Nepal would have much easier time as they would have more time being established, they could also appeal to non Nepalis as fellow Hindu liberators against Islamic conquest, which will rile up support but create opposition as well

Don't see it. Jayasithu Malla and his son only wanted to unite the fallen Nepala Mandala which fell apart after the fall of the Simroun and Suryavansh Dynasty. Also Nepali rulers especially the Mallas were very friendly with Muslims, settling a large Kashmiri population and allying themselves with Muslim rulers regularly.

It was very much a two millennia old strategy to stay in the mountains no matter what happens in the Northern plains. The Nepalese would only get involved if a North Indian power acts against them.

Let's say before age of Exploration, Nepal is empire, with Territories in OTL Nepal, Uttarakhand, North East, Bengal, Bihar, Uttar Pradesh, Punjab, Kashmir and Tibet, Would they would call their country would be Nepali, though a sizable portion will call it Bharat as it was what Hindus called the land, and Language would be Nepali, In Devanagari Script, it would be called Nepali, but would inevitably have loan words from other Indian Languages like Bengali, Punjabi etc

The Mongol Empire's Mongol population was nearly only 5% of the entire empire. The British Empire only had around 15% Britons at their height. The the French Empire had around 25% frenchies in their heyday of the French Empire. Population doesn't determine the name.

Also Nepal used the Ranjana Script during this time period, so did Kumaon, and Sikkim. Nepal would only convert to the Devanagari script in the 1920s. The Malla Dynasty were originally of Maithali origin however beyond their patronization of Sanskrit and maithali did not consider themselves a part of the Bharat Realm but only a part of the Hindu Lok. They remained true to the Newar's partial Tibetan origins as well. Newari was the Lingua Franca of Nepal at this time and remained so until the 1800s. Uttarakhand and Kumaon also used Newari during this time

I would like to add that i don't find it it likely that the ming dynasty would do much about it there is a lot of debate on how much influence the ming has over tibet but i don't think the ming dynasty would go out of its way to invade tibet if the nepalese conquered it but then again the rule of the yongle empeor would follow
And the ming emperor was the exception did for example he offered to send armies to unify Tibet under the Karmapa, but Deshin Shekpa didn't agree

So in this alternative timeline if they go north there might be a response from the empeor how this goes i can't say since I don't know much about the nepalese army

Hm that is interesting. The Tibetans may accept the offer if there is a greater southern threat from Kathmandu

A Nepali empire that unites the valley is gonna have to play a very clever game to make sure the north indian states don't unite- if a hegemon in North india appears, their unity makes them tempting for expansion, and fragmentation would be the only thing that could keep them independent.

I tell you one thing that could be interesting- a confident Nepal asserting itself on the Jaunpur state so that when the Raja Ganesh coup happens, maybe the threat from the west isn't strong enough and there's a different outcome to that situation. Perhaps Jadu could be allowed to remain Hindu?

It would be interesting to have a Hindu dynasty operating in the Persian style of government in Bengal, like an eastern Vijay Nagar, but with a larger Muslim nobility.

A Hindu Bengal so early is an interesting butterfly indeed.

 

[Brahman]

Don't see it. Jayasithu Malla and his son only wanted to unite the fallen Nepala Mandala which fell apart after the fall of the Simroun and Suryavansh Dynasty. Also Nepali rulers especially the Mallas were very friendly with Muslims, settling a large Kashmiri population and allying themselves with Muslim rulers regularly.

It was very much a two millennia old strategy to stay in the mountains no matter what happens in the Northern plains. The Nepalese would only get involved if a North Indian power acts against them.

Nepal would have no doubt tried to expand to atleast Bengal, as they would have wanted access to the sea, and one of the reasons why they would have tried to expand to Indo Gangetic Plains or atleast influence it would be to make sure no one single power emerges to challenge them

The Mongol Empire's Mongol population was nearly only 5% of the entire empire. The British Empire only had around 15% Britons at their height. The the French Empire had around 25% frenchies in their heyday of the French Empire. Population doesn't determine the name.

Also Nepal used the Ranjana Script during this time period, so did Kumaon, and Sikkim. Nepal would only convert to the Devanagari script in the 1920s. The Malla Dynasty were originally of Maithali origin however beyond their patronization of Sanskrit and maithali did not consider themselves a part of the Bharat Realm but only a part of the Hindu Lok. They remained true to the Newar's partial Tibetan origins as well. Newari was the Lingua Franca of Nepal at this time and remained so until the 1800s. Uttarakhand and Kumaon also used Newari during this time

The fact was Nepal was a Hindu empire, ruling of traditional hindu regions would also influenced them to call themsleves any number of names, but I agree, This Nepali empire would have been called Nepal over anything else, however, Maithali are very much Hindu kingdoms who also considered themsleves of Bharat/Hindutan, Maithali also live in OTL India, equal or even greater to the number present in Nepal.
Yes, I overlooked Newari, But it would be the national language, though Maithali would also be spoken extensively

 

[Sarthak]

Nepal would have no doubt tried to expand to atleast Bengal, as they would have wanted access to the sea, and one of the reasons why they would have tried to expand to Indo Gangetic Plains or atleast influence it would be to make sure no one single power emerges to challenge them

Bengal would be eyed up yes, but only if it was weak. If there is a singular power in Bengal then Nepal will not make a move. Perhaps in return for aid in the Raja Ganesh Coup, Nepal could take some Bengali territory, using underhanded deals like these, but a direct conquest is unlikely. The population of Nepal during this time would be around ~2 million whilst Bengal had a population of around ~10 million. The disparity is just too high

The fact was Nepal was a Hindu empire, ruling of traditional hindu regions would also influenced them to call themsleves any number of names, but I agree, This Nepali empire would have been called Nepal over anything else, however, Maithali are very much Hindu kingdoms who also considered themsleves of Bharat/Hindutan, Maithali also live in OTL India, equal or even greater to the number present in Nepal.
Yes, I overlooked Newari, But it would be the national language, though Maithali would also be spoken extensively

Probably the old system would be kept.
Higher level central governmental works would be done in Newari, whilst the local affairs of the local councils would be done in the local languages,

 

[Brahman]

Bengal would be eyed up yes, but only if it was weak. If there is a singular power in Bengal then Nepal will not make a move. Perhaps in return for aid in the Raja Ganesh Coup, Nepal could take some Bengali territory, using underhanded deals like these, but a direct conquest is unlikely. The population of Nepal during this time would be around ~2 million whilst Bengal had a population of around ~10 million. The disparity is just too high

Probably the old system would be kept.
Higher level central governmental works would be done in Newari, whilst the local affairs of the local councils would be done in the local languages,

Population of Bengal would not be that big of an hinderance, remember, Turks were severly outnumbered by Bengal yet still won in wars, only a small Persianised Ruling elite was the Massive Hindu Bengalis, Nepal would have something similiar and infact much easier, due to the fact they are Hindus as well
Nepal could take a portion of Bengal that includes Coastline, with leaving the rest to a Hindu Bengali Kingdom if possible

Probably the old system would be kept.
Higher level central governmental works would be done in Newari, whilst the local affairs of the local councils would be done in the local languages,

Scripts all would be standardized, so Ranjana Script would be used for a variety of Languages, would not be too difficult as it is also an abugida like most writing systems of Subcontinent
Newari language development would be interesting in this timeline, as though it is not an Indo Aryan but Sino Tibetan, It would have much more interaction with Indo Aryan Languages due to it Nepali Empire, would no doubt contain more Indo Aryan words than in OTL

 

[Madhukar_Shah]

If there is a singular power in Bengal then Nepal will not make a move

Nepal is too far from Bengal to even eye it up really- Jaunpur stands in the way and has a much stronger economic, population and military base than Nepal, as long as it's not wasted. At most Nepal could cut some territory from Mithila and the immediate area but they're as like to threaten Bengal as they are China.

 

[Sarthak]

Population of Bengal would not be that big of an hinderance, remember, Turks were severly outnumbered by Bengal yet still won in wars, only a small Persianised Ruling elite was the Massive Hindu Bengalis, Nepal would have something similiar and infact much easier, due to the fact they are Hindus as well

It is theoretically possible, but it goes against the 'stay in the hills and footlands' mentality of nepal during this time. It is possible though.

Scripts all would be standardized, so Ranjana Script would be used for a variety of Languages, would not be too difficult as it is also an abugida like most writing systems of Subcontinent
Newari language development would be interesting in this timeline, as though it is not an Indo Aryan but Sino Tibetan, It would have much more interaction with Indo Aryan Languages due to it Nepali Empire, would no doubt contain more Indo Aryan words than in OTL

Ranjana is a standardized script. It's tibetan standardized for indo-aryan. North Indian, Tibetan and Chinese phonetics are all represented in Ranjana. That was a major reason as to why it was used for much of medieval india as a transmission script between north india and tibet.

Nepal is too far from Bengal to even eye it up really- Jaunpur stands in the way and has a much stronger economic, population and military base than Nepal, as long as it's not wasted. At most Nepal could cut some territory from Mithila and the immediate area but they're as like to threaten Bengal as they are China.

Indeed, Jaunpur is a far greater threat and adversary for a hypothetically united Nepal during this time. Though if Nepal can conquer Tirhut, it could gain an advantageous flank against Jaunpur, but it still stands that Jaunpur would still have an advantage over Nepal even in such a scenario.

 

[Brahman]

Indeed, Jaunpur is a far greater threat and adversary for a hypothetically united Nepal during this time. Though if Nepal can conquer Tirhut, it could gain an advantageous flank against Jaunpur, but it still stands that Jaunpur would still have an advantage over Nepal even in such a scenario.

Jaunpur would be dangerous, but it would not pose a threat as much as you think, Jaunpur lies in flat plains, whereas Nepal is in Hills and Mountains, Nepal would have a far easier time Attacks Jaunpur than the reverse

 

[Hawabin]

When will Nepal be unified in 1400's?
How will this impact the mughals? Will they put more focus on conquest of Nepal?
Or is that going to be Butterfield away too?

 

[Sarthak]

Jaunpur would be dangerous, but it would not pose a threat as much as you think, Jaunpur lies in flat plains, whereas Nepal is in Hills and Mountains, Nepal would have a far easier time Attacks Jaunpur than the reverse

possible. Though Jaunpur will still have the advantage of home field advantage and greater depth of area

When will Nepal be unified in 1400's?
How will this impact the mughals? Will they put more focus on conquest of Nepal?
Or is that going to be Butterfield away too?

Jayasithi Malla died in 1394 conquering around 1/3 of modern Nepal. Let's say for the sake of the thread, around ~1410. The mughals by this early in indian history is quite butterflied away i think.

 

[Hawabin]

possible. Though Jaunpur will still have the advantage of home field advantage and greater depth of area

Jayasithi Malla died in 1394 conquering around 1/3 of modern Nepal. Let's say for the sake of the thread, around ~1410. The mughals by this early in indian history is quite butterflied away i think.

Hope you have a large net to catch all the butterflies!