If you had control over the treaty of Versailles, what would the terms be?
- Thread starter Abdominalz
- Start date
Alsace-Lorraine given back to France
Germany looses all colonies.
Corridor, Eupen, Danzig and Memel stay German. Referendum in Silesia, Slesvig and Border areas with Poland.
Austria allowed to unite with Germany.
Germany pays reparations for all damages done in occupied territories and civilian losses in occupied and unoccupied territories.
Germany is allowed to repay similar to our FRG.
Germany is allowed to keep all it patents and the will be no internationalization of German infrastructure.
Entente and League of natons inspectors will be stationed in Germany until all reperations are repayed.
France, Brittain, Italy, Japan and USA get favorable treatment in trade deals.
German army size no bigger than 300.000.
Equipment limitations on the German military (Number of Battleships, no poison gas...)
Germany is to provide support and basing rights to entente operations until Red forces in Russia are defeated.
Germany becomes a member of the League of Nations.
Germany looses all colonies.
Corridor, Eupen, Danzig and Memel stay German. Referendum in Silesia, Slesvig and Border areas with Poland.
Austria allowed to unite with Germany.
Germany pays reparations for all damages done in occupied territories and civilian losses in occupied and unoccupied territories.
Germany is allowed to repay similar to our FRG.
Germany is allowed to keep all it patents and the will be no internationalization of German infrastructure.
Entente and League of natons inspectors will be stationed in Germany until all reperations are repayed.
France, Brittain, Italy, Japan and USA get favorable treatment in trade deals.
German army size no bigger than 300.000.
Equipment limitations on the German military (Number of Battleships, no poison gas...)
Germany is to provide support and basing rights to entente operations until Red forces in Russia are defeated.
Germany becomes a member of the League of Nations.
Redbeard
Banned
1. France and UK shall for eternity be given a 30% discount on German cars
2. All German cooks will need a two-year training in France before being allowed to cook again (the British as well).
3. The three toes inbetween the big and little one shall from the inside be named: Liberte, egalite and fraternite. On all German feet!
4. The German shipyards shall be run by British Labour Unions.
5. In 1947 Germany can have India if UK gets the Ruhr.
6. Find a pretty German girl for Wilson, that will keep him occupied.
7. Find pretty girls for all sons of dead Austrian customs officers, that will keep them occupied as well.
8. That's it
2. All German cooks will need a two-year training in France before being allowed to cook again (the British as well).
3. The three toes inbetween the big and little one shall from the inside be named: Liberte, egalite and fraternite. On all German feet!
4. The German shipyards shall be run by British Labour Unions.
5. In 1947 Germany can have India if UK gets the Ruhr.
6. Find a pretty German girl for Wilson, that will keep him occupied.
7. Find pretty girls for all sons of dead Austrian customs officers, that will keep them occupied as well.
8. That's it
-Alsace-Moselle is to be given back to France
-Referendums in the east (with Entente observers) to determine the border between Poland and Germany with the finest grain possible (but excluding the possibility of small enclaves), so yes, the Corridor will probably be Polish
-Referendums in Schleswig (like OTL)
-Reparations based on civilian damages.
-Military pensions of Alsatians and Mosellans (and soldiers now part of others nations that were forced to fight under the German uniform) is to be paid in Francs based on the French (on their new nations for others) pensions (those would be the only pensions paid by Germany outside what they choose to do for their own)
-Loss of colonies (i would prefer independence for them but that is completely unrealistic at the times)
-German army is to limited to the same size as the French one, with an interdiction to produce poison gas. Dissolution of the General Staff and the Prussian dominated military academies.
As a side treaty, France and Germany agree to resolve their differences through peaceful means and to promote continental economic (and if possible political) cooperation. France agree to support Germany and Austria if a referendum wanting their union is done if Germany works with France as an equal. (ie Start a early EU)
-Referendums in the east (with Entente observers) to determine the border between Poland and Germany with the finest grain possible (but excluding the possibility of small enclaves), so yes, the Corridor will probably be Polish
-Referendums in Schleswig (like OTL)
-Reparations based on civilian damages.
-Military pensions of Alsatians and Mosellans (and soldiers now part of others nations that were forced to fight under the German uniform) is to be paid in Francs based on the French (on their new nations for others) pensions (those would be the only pensions paid by Germany outside what they choose to do for their own)
-Loss of colonies (i would prefer independence for them but that is completely unrealistic at the times)
-German army is to limited to the same size as the French one, with an interdiction to produce poison gas. Dissolution of the General Staff and the Prussian dominated military academies.
As a side treaty, France and Germany agree to resolve their differences through peaceful means and to promote continental economic (and if possible political) cooperation. France agree to support Germany and Austria if a referendum wanting their union is done if Germany works with France as an equal. (ie Start a early EU)
Territorial losses - Germany loses Alsace-Lorraine as well as all Polish, Lithuanian etc. inhabited lands and all colonies. So more or less as in OTL.
Demilitarization as per OTL.
Reparations to be reduced, slightly. Allow and publicly proclaim that Austria may unify with Germany after ~5-10 years, if during that time Germany (and Austria) observe all terms of the treaties and pay the designated fractions of their reparations on time.
Demilitarization as per OTL.
Reparations to be reduced, slightly. Allow and publicly proclaim that Austria may unify with Germany after ~5-10 years, if during that time Germany (and Austria) observe all terms of the treaties and pay the designated fractions of their reparations on time.
Why not aim for a LON with actual teeth to enforce peace around the world !
(OK realistically)
I would combine harshness (towards German army, lots of limits and make all officers sign it or face court marshal) with help to German civilian population/government ie free trade zone including FR/GB/Italy and eastern Europe (and hopefully USA)
(OK realistically)
I would combine harshness (towards German army, lots of limits and make all officers sign it or face court marshal) with help to German civilian population/government ie free trade zone including FR/GB/Italy and eastern Europe (and hopefully USA)
Here's my take:
1. The border between Hungary and Czechoslovakia should be based on the exact ethnic boundaries between Hungarians and the people living in the eastern regions (Slovaks) the Szekelys, meanwhile, should decide themselves if they would stay as citizens of Hungary or joined Romania.
2. A Kurdish nation-state should be assured by the Allies, while Assyrians and their right to existence should be respected and reassured.
3. The Ottoman Empire should pay reparations and indemnity to the survivors of the atrocities it committed against Armenians in 1915 to the point of ceding some of its territory to both survivors and descendants of Armenians living abroad.
1. The border between Hungary and Czechoslovakia should be based on the exact ethnic boundaries between Hungarians and the people living in the eastern regions (Slovaks) the Szekelys, meanwhile, should decide themselves if they would stay as citizens of Hungary or joined Romania.
2. A Kurdish nation-state should be assured by the Allies, while Assyrians and their right to existence should be respected and reassured.
3. The Ottoman Empire should pay reparations and indemnity to the survivors of the atrocities it committed against Armenians in 1915 to the point of ceding some of its territory to both survivors and descendants of Armenians living abroad.
Deleted member 1487
ASB level control? A-L given autonomy, its an independent state buffer zone as they were setting up in November 1918:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1918_in_Alsace-Lorraine
I'd let Germany and the Republic of German Austria merge:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_German-Austria
I'd have Switzerland manage plebicites on Germany's disputed Eastern border with a newly recreated Poland. Danzig would stay with Germany, as would Memelland, but neither would be able to put tariffs on Polish or Lithuanian imports/exports.
Germany would pay reparations for damages inflicted in occupied France and Belgium, while Germany takes on Austria's payments to Italy for damages inflicted as part of the merger, payments monitored by the US, who would set the value of gold/commodities in payment. Germany would get a moratorium on payments until they resolved their political problems at home and stabilized their economy with payments not beginning later than 1923. At that point it would be limited to their ability to pay as assessed by the US.
The German fleet would be limited to half that of Britain with excess ships turned over to the Allies as part of reparations.
The German military would not be restricted in technologies and weapons, but it would be limited to 300k men in a standing, long service army, plus a reserve force allowed. The air force would be limited to 100k men. The navy the same. That wouldn't include air defense personnel.
There would be a European coal and iron/steel commission set up to allow the free transit of those commodities without restriction to avoid trade wars impacting overall economic life in Europe.
Separate treaties for Hungary, Bulgaria, and the Ottomans to deal with their specific issues.
Germany loses all its colonies.
League of Nations set up with teeth, Germany is not excluded, the US is involved. Russia is included whenever it resolves its Civil War and establishes a government that is in total control of its territory.
Baltic states are established.
LoNs guarantees all borders in Europe, so if anyone invades any other nation and tries to take territory that triggers intervention.
I'd also like to see some work towards Astride Briand's European Union idea too, but that probably doesn't make sense to include in the ToV deal.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1918_in_Alsace-Lorraine
I'd let Germany and the Republic of German Austria merge:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_German-Austria
I'd have Switzerland manage plebicites on Germany's disputed Eastern border with a newly recreated Poland. Danzig would stay with Germany, as would Memelland, but neither would be able to put tariffs on Polish or Lithuanian imports/exports.
Germany would pay reparations for damages inflicted in occupied France and Belgium, while Germany takes on Austria's payments to Italy for damages inflicted as part of the merger, payments monitored by the US, who would set the value of gold/commodities in payment. Germany would get a moratorium on payments until they resolved their political problems at home and stabilized their economy with payments not beginning later than 1923. At that point it would be limited to their ability to pay as assessed by the US.
The German fleet would be limited to half that of Britain with excess ships turned over to the Allies as part of reparations.
The German military would not be restricted in technologies and weapons, but it would be limited to 300k men in a standing, long service army, plus a reserve force allowed. The air force would be limited to 100k men. The navy the same. That wouldn't include air defense personnel.
There would be a European coal and iron/steel commission set up to allow the free transit of those commodities without restriction to avoid trade wars impacting overall economic life in Europe.
Separate treaties for Hungary, Bulgaria, and the Ottomans to deal with their specific issues.
Germany loses all its colonies.
League of Nations set up with teeth, Germany is not excluded, the US is involved. Russia is included whenever it resolves its Civil War and establishes a government that is in total control of its territory.
Baltic states are established.
LoNs guarantees all borders in Europe, so if anyone invades any other nation and tries to take territory that triggers intervention.
I'd also like to see some work towards Astride Briand's European Union idea too, but that probably doesn't make sense to include in the ToV deal.
Interesting but you've got the wrong treatys.
1. is the treaty of Trianon. 2 & 3 are the Treaty of Sèvres.
You are not even wrong but you aren't right either.
Why the Alsatians don't get a voice in their own destiny ? The guys who proclaimed the Republic of Alsace-Lorraine had almost zero political support among the general population.
On the presumption that it's enforced and accepted, I'd have:
Also some sort of joint commitment from both Allies and Germany towards the ending of the Russian civil war in an acceptable manner.
Probably could be useful to create some sort of proto-EU, to ensure co-dependence and cooperation.
This might be just a load of shite though.
- Referendums held in all territories of the German nation with a plurality of non-Germans and also in Slesvig-Holstein and Alsace-Lorraine (this on the presumption that France is on board, which it probably wouldn't be).
- Reparations to be paid towards all allied, occupied and damaged nations within the realms of feasiblity, no crippling of the economy through them.
- All German colonies to be placed under mandate of the Allied powers.
- The formation of the League of Nations, with Germany included within it, and an actual obligation to enforce the will of the League. Hopefully the USA is also included within this League.
- Restrictions of the German military branches to within the parameters needed for acceptable self-defence, but no more.
Also some sort of joint commitment from both Allies and Germany towards the ending of the Russian civil war in an acceptable manner.
Probably could be useful to create some sort of proto-EU, to ensure co-dependence and cooperation.
This might be just a load of shite though.
Deleted member 1487
I wasn't talking about the Soviet republic guys. As it was the French just marched in and took over. Given the people of the land a choice of what they want without interference by the French or Allies. I really think for the peace of Europe its better just to make it a buffer state between Germany and France and anyone invading it triggers a DoW by the LoN.
The Alsatian wanted to be French. As one of the many people saying the Danzig crap was, well, crap, you should aknowledge that leaving someone out of their prefered nation is, well, a crappy idea. And as it was all the main political forces pushed for joining France without a referendum (Peirotes proclaimed the rattachement to France the 10 November, and called for the French troops to come in, supported by the Nationalrat [landsrat plus the alsatian mps])
So the Germans in Danzig can choose where to go, but not the Alsatians ? Holy double standards Batman !
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Inst the history of post WWII Germany basically that ?
Occupy/piss off/humiliate/control them and then make them get rich to make Germany not want to go back ?
I think you need to be specific on who you piss off with hindsight you need to destroy the army and the stab in the back by getting the senior officers to all sight the surrender and then help Germany and the rest of Europe by rebuilding it to make the population get on with life, preferably very well connected together so it cant dream of independently building up forces without massively hurting itself economically.
I would try to limit and mix all nations army's and have them under a LON supervision. (I would bribe France by giving them supreme command of the LON peace keepers or something)
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Deleted member 1487
We don't know that because there was never a vote. Instead the French marched in, annexed it, and started a program of Franc-ization.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alsace-Lorraine#Annexation_to_the_French_Republic
The local government declared their independence from both Germany and France until the French army marched in and put it under military occupation and forced that legislative body to recognize France's annexation.