If the WAllies had decided to push the Soviet Union out of Europe immediately following WW2

I don't think so, fighting a war of aggression is not really Europe's cup of tea at this point. The Americans and British will go for it fully, but not the French, Italians, Germans, Dutch, Belgians, Austrians. They'd protest against it. Concerning agreements made i think its a good bet for some of those countries to side with the Soviets, since they will still retain their sovereignity. The French had rights to Berlin and German lands to occupy too. And i don't think Stalin was so mad as to think he could occupy all of Europe and turn it all into a Soviet puppet. Just what was agreed upon.


I think Stalin gave it thought
I also think that if the opportunity was there he would attempt. Problem was by Aug 1945 a new age dawned. And he new it before hand.
Hence supporting Mao . And north Korea oh and the Czechs didn't seem so happy about that communism . Prague spring.. Or the Hungarians . Or thoae who fled east Berlin or east Germany, or the polish solidarity movement.

He knew he couldn't take any more than he did.

Funny thing Nazi Germany was pretty much an epitome of the bad things with humanity.

The soviets were not Far behind at the time, remember the overran the baltics . Took the baltics, Finland.. Worked with the nazis to take Poland.

World revolution was a doctrine.

Ask Ukraine . Or those sent to gulag and kulaks . Those sent to Siberia .
Those murdered by nkvd and kgb..

Soviets didn't invade because they knew the cost.. The west did t invade because they new the cost.

Millions more dead and the effects of chemical and atomic bombs wouldn't have been pretty.

Thankfully they didn't

Sure there were socialist and communist elements. France is going to go communist? Or better yet not fight along side those who just rescued them? French pride is deep, but it isn't blind.

If the US is the aggressor then sure Noone else joins up.. Not even the British.

We failed by letting the soviets take eastern Europe, we didn't negotiate.

I have a few Soviet jokes to talk about Soviet life by Soviet people if you need them.

My point is most people wanted socialism and a better more fair life, none wanted communism of the uncle Joe verity.

Also Germans ... There were not many left of fighting age to do much except pows and none of them had any fight left in them.

The world just fought the largest most painful war ever Reshaped humanity, even effected apartheid America to look at its self in the mirror.. You can't poke at the nazis if you are Jim Crowe at home.


Last bit.
I don't think the Americans people would have been all happy about a continued euro war unless it was sold back in 42..
Yes we are helping the soviets, but we will not stop until the Baltics and Poland are free nations Able to decide there own fares..

Other wise may 1945 is a bad time to tell people hey.. Just kidding . We are not some yet. People will not be happy about that.

The British are freaking tired, the dominion forces will be more Pt to tell the Queen where to go to..

Just my 3 rubles of thought
Humans suck
 
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I think Stalin gave it thought
I also think that if the opportunity was there he would attempt. Problem was by Aug 1945 a new age dawned. And he new it before hand.

I don't think that was the main reason. Stalin was good at keeping deals, he knew when to stop. Or else, there wouldn't have been a Soviet Union that long. Troubles with Stalin was mostly his own paranoia and that made him dangerous for his own people, but in foreign affair he always played it smart, smarter than other dictators. Even if the opportunity was there he wouldn't risk it. In the rest of your post you even explain why yourself.

If the US is the aggressor then sure Noone else joins up.. Not even the British.

With Churchill at the helm i wouldn't be so sure. Churchill was the first one to suggest it, the main advocate. Fortunately he was returned to reality by others.

Make no mistake, the Wallies were ambitious as well, Stalin wasn't the only one, not only dictators get to play with power.

Small example but the Dutch government had a plan to annex a huge part of Germany as compensation for the war, enlarging the country by 30 percent and including major cities like Keulen and Munster. But, agreements had already been made and theidea wasdimissed almost immediately.

Last bit.
I don't think the Americans people would have been all happy about a continued euro war unless it was sold back in 42..
Yes we are helping the soviets, but we will not stop until the Baltics and Poland are free nations Able to decide there own fares..

If they did that i think they can forget any further conferences with Stalin. Might even start refusing lend-lease in 1944, just to be less dependent. Next thing you know they are pushing further into Austria and have Yugoslavs move towards Trieste and then later invade Greece to support the communist uprising in the civil war.
 
hindsight is 2020. In 1940 US people wouldn't even fight to save Britain. (Roosevelt wanted to, but not congress). US people only wanted war after Pearl Harbor. And even then, US only went to war with Germany after Hitler declared war on US.

So to say US people 2 days after Pearl Harbor were suddenly pining to liberate Vilnius and Bucharest is... overstating it a bit. The only way to beat the Nazis was with the help of USSR. To beat Hitler we were recognizing Red Army would go through (at least) Poland and Czech; and USSR recognized we'd go through France.

The whole FDR lost Yalta narrative seems to ignore where the Red Army was in 1945 (they'd already won everything but DDR and Czech). Maybe we could've sanctioned them harder after the war to induce them to back down. And/or promised more aid to persuade them. But Red Army was already there. And FDR and Churchill and combined chiefs knew in 1942 that's how it would end up.
 
I could see a 1948 Berlin Airlift going hot, but up and until the Japanese surrender the West wanted/ needed the USSR for the fight against Japan. Going to war with the USSR would have only been done if they went on the offensive and even then I believe they would take all of Mainland Europe, from Norway to Portuagal
 
POD would have to be Soviet aggression in Europe.

Stalin gets paranoid when Turkey joins allies in Feb 1945.

Stalin fears allied enforcement in Europe.

As US prepares for invasion of Japan, Stalin sees that now is his chance to drive the Allies from the continent.

Instead of pulling units out if Europe to the Pacific, Stalin reorganises for a push in Europe, Turkey, and Iran

West allies intelligence and recon fail to pick up on reorganisation.

August storm hits with a surprise as Soviet offensive begins.

Allies fall back to protect Denmark, Hamburg, western Austria and Munich, and Frankfurt.

Allies hold after giving up initial ground as air power decimates Soviet logistics. American nukes are only used on Soviet soil from air bases in Turkey and southern Iran. 3 targets per month. Targets are for mfg and trans centers.

45 - allies retreat but hold
46 - stalemate, us lands in Vladivostok and shores up Korea in Pac.
47 - massive allied landings in Adriatic and Black sea with break outs in Iran to Baku and Iran to central Asia
48 - allies break out and advance on all fronts
49 - Ukraine and Baltics liberated
50 - war over for Moscow

Question would be what would USA do with Japan? Hiroshima and Nagasaki still occur but no Soviet invasion of Manchuria as they hit Europe instead

I would have Japan surrenders or USA sets up blockade but does not invade islands. Forces in the Pac shore up a beach head in Korea, Chinese fight Japanese as well.

Japan formally surrender after fall of Soviets.
 
POD would have to be Soviet aggression in Europe.

Stalin gets paranoid when Turkey joins allies in Feb 1945.

Stalin fears allied enforcement in Europe.

As US prepares for invasion of Japan, Stalin sees that now is his chance to drive the Allies from the continent.

Instead of pulling units out if Europe to the Pacific, Stalin reorganises for a push in Europe, Turkey, and Iran

West allies intelligence and recon fail to pick up on reorganisation.

August storm hits with a surprise as Soviet offensive begins.

Allies fall back to protect Denmark, Hamburg, western Austria and Munich, and Frankfurt.

Allies hold after giving up initial ground as air power decimates Soviet logistics. American nukes are only used on Soviet soil from air bases in Turkey and southern Iran. 3 targets per month. Targets are for mfg and trans centers.

45 - allies retreat but hold
46 - stalemate, us lands in Vladivostok and shores up Korea in Pac.
47 - massive allied landings in Adriatic and Black sea with break outs in Iran to Baku and Iran to central Asia
48 - allies break out and advance on all fronts
49 - Ukraine and Baltics liberated
50 - war over for Moscow

Question would be what would USA do with Japan? Hiroshima and Nagasaki still occur but no Soviet invasion of Manchuria as they hit Europe instead

I would have Japan surrenders or USA sets up blockade but does not invade islands. Forces in the Pac shore up a beach head in Korea, Chinese fight Japanese as well.

Japan formally surrender after fall of Soviets.

Thats not the OP scenario. The Soviets initiating is even worse scenario then the Wallies doing it.

There isn't going to be any fighting till the 50's. There won't be any people left to fight it.

Also, if the Soviets initiate and go for Europe instead of Japan(continued neutrality pact, build-up in Far East rediected to west) how will the Soviets respond to the nukes, having already initiated whatever they initiated against the US, who now has bombs that can easily level a city. Also, with Japan collapsing and the Americans still invading(they need that victory), they are at the Soviet doorsteps in the east. Next is Vladivostok.
 
Britain went to war to liberate Poland. Churchill & Patton both disliked the Russians by this stage, so within a few weeks American & British armour could roll on eastwards.

“We promised the Europeans freedom. It would be worse than dishonorable not to see they have it. This might mean war with the Russians, but what of it? They have no Air Force anymore , their
gasoline and ammunition supplies are low.I've seen their miserable
supply trains;mostly wagons draw by beaten up old hoses or oxen.
I'll say this ;the Third Army alone with very little help and with
damned few casulaties,could lick what is left of the Russians in six
weeks.“ General George Patton.

British tank production geared up for the Centurion in 1945 could make around 200 per month.
Zero chance of British production being halted due to bombing and definitely not American factories. The American were producing 2,000 Sherman’s a month. On the other side Russia producing 1,400 tanks per month, this will drop when USA cuts supplies.

WAllies out produced the Soviets, who had, like the Germans at the end of ‘42 out run their supply chain.

The RAF Meteors would quickly wipe the Russians from the sky , while Lancaster’s and B29 carpet bomb everything in sight.

It would’ve been over even quicker that Patton thought.
 
Britain went to war to liberate Poland. Churchill & Patton both disliked the Russians by this stage, so within a few weeks American & British armour could roll on eastwards.

Even if Truman were a lot crazier than he was, he would not want war with the USSR before Japan was defeated. And by that time Churchill would be out of office anyway. (Not that even Churchill wanted such a war anyway--he just asked for a contingency plan for it to be drawn up, and the planners predictably dismissed the idea as impractical. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable)

BTW, General Patton does not decide whether the US goes to war or not.

Also, remember that "The United States did not go to war for Poland. It did not go to war at all until December 1941, more than two years after the fall of Poland. American troops did not land in continental Europe, in Italy, until a full four years after Poland was overrun." https://books.google.com/books?id=PqNMBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA231
 
Also, remember that "The United States did not go to war for Poland. It did not go to war at all until December 1941, more than two years after the fall of Poland. American troops did not land in continental Europe, in Italy, until a full four years after Poland was overrun." https://books.google.com/books?id=PqNMBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA231

BTW, I agree with Sinclair McKay that the UK didn't go to war to liberate Poland, either. "On 3 September 1939, when Britain went to war over the invasion of Poland, no one — not the newly called-up men, nor their officers, nor their wives and girlfriends and mothers, nor the politicians —appeared to imagine that the armed forces would be sent over to Poland to join battle with the German foe. There was no suggestion of troops being flown in to help grab back Warsaw and repulse the invaders. Obviously, given Poland's acutely vulnerable location between Germany and Russia, those newly minted allies of the Molotov/Ribbentrop pact, such an idea would never have been given even fleeting consideration. It seemed to be widely understood up and down the land; Poland was simply the crossed line in the sand, the pretext, the trigger..." https://books.google.com/books?id=_Io_BAAAQBAJ&pg=PT28

What would have been the line in the sand, the trigger in 1945? It would be nothing less than Stalin invading western Europe. It certainly would not have been Poland, however unhappy the West was about Soviet actions there. Indeed, the US and the UK quickly recognized the Polish "Provisional Government of National Unity" formed in June 1945, even though they realized perfectly well that it was Communist-dominated and that the inclusion of Mikołajczyk was a fig leaf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Provisional_Government_of_National_Unity
 
It would’ve been over even quicker that Patton thought.

Less than six weeks?

Whilst I don't disagree the allies will have by far superior air power and logistics it doesn't mean that 10million+ communist troops armed to the teeth in Europe will be rolled over in less than two months.

You also forget very large numbers of partisans who have fought for 4-6 years from the Atlantic coast to Belarus to the shores of the Med in Greece, to the Adriatic coasts of Italy and Yugoslavia are often made up of and led by communists and socialists and are potentially going to play havoc with allied logistics. That's before you even get onto communist partisans in Indonesia, Malaya, Indochina, China and Korea.

How's it going to go down with British India? The Middle East? Etc. This is a ripe opportunity for anti colonial struggles.

Not to mention, as has already been mentioned, that American and Commonwealth troops are liable to mutiny.

And in America itself, how are the 50 odd thousand CPUSA members often deeply entrenched in the trade unions going to play their cards?
 
And in America itself, how are the 50 odd thousand CPUSA members often deeply entrenched in the trade unions going to play their cards?

That last is a good point. The left-wing unions of the CIO (an important minority of the CIO) included at least two maritime unions that would be important in shipping men and materiel--the National Maritime Union and Harry Bridges' ILWU. The United Electrical Workers (UE) important in war production, was Left-dominated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Electrical,_Radio_and_Machine_Workers_of_America The pro-Soviet Left was also an important part of the coalition backing R. J. Thomas, president of the UAW, another union important in war production. Workers were already showing signs of dissatisfaction with the no-strike pledge, and there were a lot of wildcat strikes, which the Left in OTL tried to restrain. The Left could easily switch overnight from being the biggest supporters of the no-strike pledge to its biggest opponents (just as they suddenly became a lot less "strike-happy" after June 22, 1941). No open "sabotage" would be required--there were plenty of legitimate purely trade union reasons for strikes that could cripple production. (And of course even plenty of non-Left unions would be outraged by the US starting an offensive war against the Soviets.)
 
That last is a good point. The left-wing unions of the CIO (an important minority of the CIO) included at least two maritime unions that would be important in shipping men and materiel--the National Maritime Union and Harry Bridges' ILWU. The United Electrical Workers (UE) important in war production, was Left-dominated. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Electrical,_Radio_and_Machine_Workers_of_America The pro-Soviet Left was also an important part of the coalition backing R. J. Thomas, president of the UAW, another union important in war production. Workers were already showing signs of dissatisfaction with the no-strike pledge, and there were a lot of wildcat strikes, which the Left in OTL tried to restrain. The Left could easily switch overnight from being the biggest supporters of the no-strike pledge to its biggest opponents (just as they suddenly became a lot less "strike-happy" after June 22, 1941). No open "sabotage" would be required--there were plenty of legitimate purely trade union reasons for strikes that could cripple production. (And of course even plenty of non-Left unions would be outraged by the US starting an offensive war against the Soviets.)

Much the same applies in Britain, in 45 the CPGB had about 50k members, and again were also very much entrenched in the Unions. Plus many in the left wing of the Labour party, and trade unions, were very sympathetic to the USSR.
 
First and foremost, there is no overwhelming Soviet manpower advantage and the ratio to the West is close to a 1:1 basis than what I've seen suggested within this thread. The Soviets did have more divisions, but that is merely a paper advantage given they were managing 2-5,000 men per division at this time as compared to over 10,000 for your regular American unit. By late 1942/early 1943 the Soviets had effectively exhausted their manpower according to reports delivered to Stalin. A translated summary of it is here:

That ignores that from 1943 to 1945, 9 million fit males came of age within the pre-war borders of the USSR (of which a significant proportion were admittedly conscripted into the Red Army as it was) and a further 3 million were coming of age annually up through to 1947. As it was, when the war ended the Soviets had around one-and-a-half million men from the 1945 class of conscripts in replacement training from the first of the bi-annual call-ups. The decline in strength of rifle divisions was the result of a conscious decision to divert manpower into reinforcing and creating more artillery and tank units, not from an absolute shortage of men.

Next, we move to the nuclear issue. Serial production was already underway by the end of 1945 and for the first half of that year the masses of B-24s and B-17s the U.S. had used to break Nazi Germany were still present. To understand why this is important, consider the following:

WW2PolandMap_1472560c.jpg


Take out Warsaw, Lublin and Lwow, and the entire logistics net of the RKKA West of the Vistula immediately collapses as they've just lost their rail connections to the USSR proper.

That firstly ignores that it took years for those B-24s and B-17s to break Nazi Germany. The British planners for Unthinkable, who were intimately familiar with the capabilities and limitations of air power operating against lines of communication having had ample experience with it against the Germans, did not believe they could achieve such a total collapse of Soviet logistics so rapidly. Additionally, looking at that map I'm seeing rail lines that would still be available to the USSR in the event Warsaw, Lublin, and Lwow were destroyed. For, the lines going through East Prussia and that one I can see that runs between Lublin and Warsaw. This is, of course, assuming the atomic bombers are not intercepted and shot down.

The Soviets could not recover from this due the following:

92.7% of all Railway rails were Lend Lease sourced.

81.6% of all Locomotives were Lend Lease sourced.

80.7% of all Railcars were Lend Lease sourced

Classic case of lying with statistics. Those figures are in comparison to Soviet production during the war, not for usage. Overwhelmingly, the Soviets used their domestic pre-war stocks throughout the war, with lend-lease inputs only being enough to cover losses. Locomotives is a good case in point: per The Influence of Railways on Military Operations in the Russo-German War 1941–1945, the Soviets started the war with 24,000 locomotives, lost an estimated 2,000 to the Germans during the course of the war, and through lend-lease received 1,900. An additional 2,000 locomotives, as well as 120,000 railcars, were subsequently captured in the late-stages of the war.

59% of all AV Gas also came from the West, which is critical as Air Power and Maneuver Warfare by Martin van Creveld states that 87% of German counterattacks against Soviet exploitation forces happened outside the range of all fire support except for the Soviet air force. With such a steep reduction in AV Gas, the VVS will be unable to play this vital role and most Soviet attacks will collapse and be destroyed in the face of Anglo-American counter-attacks. This is already no much of an issue, given overwhelming Western air advantage.

I've always wondered where that 59% figure comes from, since the numbers shipped and consumed don't support it. Between June 1941 and May 1945, the Soviets record expenditures of just under 3 million tons of high-octane aviation fuel and received 1,197,587 tons, which works out to around 40%. Most discussions on this also ignore the fact that American lend-lease furnished the Soviets with six refinery complexes outfitted with the catalytic cracking processes for the domestic production of high-octane aviation fuel, but those refineries were still there and still producing when lend-lease stopped and would still be providing large quantities of high-octane avgas to the Soviets. This is further ignoring that the capture and retrieval of German and Romanian petro-chemical industries would have furnished the Soviets with further capacity for the production of high-octane avgas, so using the metrics of 1941-1944 for Soviet mid-1945 avgas production is flawed to begin with.

I should throw in the caveat that I'm having quite some trouble tracking down hard numbers for Soviet aviation gas productive capabilities in 1945. We have a good idea of what the demand would be: that 3 million figure gives us a average of 750,000 tons consumed annually. But the closest I can find is a CIA report from 1950 which gives a annual production figure of 970 thousand tons in 1949, excluding Romanian and German refineries, and who knows how accurate it actually is. If anyone reading this can dig up some hard numbers on this matter, ideally from something using Soviet archival material, it'd be appreciated.

Your implication that the German counterattacks against Soviet exploitation forces is likewise dubious, since the VVS was unable to do the sort of flexible CAS the WAllies did, instead generally doing stuff like interdiction patrols in set regions. This seems to be taking a correlation for a causation. By and large those German counterattacks were stopped not by the Soviet VVS but by Soviet mechanized forces conducting the exploitation. Fire support for such efforts was largely provided by assault guns and tank destroyers, not by aviation.

"There was evidence indicating that the Soviet economy was weak. Even the Soviet government's published statistics, which were thought to be generally exaggerated, revealed an economy far behind the west. Soviet diplomatic actions in the immediate post-war period, whether in the form of attempts to gain more favourable conditions for Lend-Lease payments, Soviet lobbying for a large German reparations payment, Soviet demands to gain Austrian oil, or the transportation of basic infrastructure from conquered eastern Europe to the Soviet Union all indicated economic deficiencies. General Walter Bedell Smith, a future head of the Central Intelligence Agency, estimated that it would be another 10 to 15 years before the Soviets had recovered from the last war. The CIA's Office of Research and Estimates (ORE) tried to appraise the Soviet Union in terms of war potential, looking at the industrial strength, technology, and possible bottlenecks to increased production. The ORE concluded that Soviet economic weaknesses gravely limited the ability of Moscow to fight a prolonged war with the North Atlantic Treaty nations."

"In particular, American analysts felt that the Soviet petroleum industry would find it difficult to produce enough high octane fuel, the Soviet machine tool industry did not produce enough spare parts, there was insufficient rolling stock to handle war time needs in the USSR, and the Soviets had perennial shortages of certain non-ferrous metals and certain types of finished steel. Complicating these problems, and, to an extent, causing them, were the Soviet deficiencies in properly trained technological personnel and managers."

Long on generalization, absent on specifics, and rather contrary to the historical data we do have. The Soviets didn't have trouble producing high-octane fuel for all the masses of new late-model piston engine and jet fights they were flying around in the late-1940s, their rolling stock in 1945 was about the same size as it was pre-war and that had handled the war time needs rather admirably, Soviet industry expanded significantly which indicates large production of machine tool spare parts and metal production, and Soviet technological and managers personnel were enough to design and manufacture all sorts of high technological items from radars to jet engines to atomic bombs. Sounds more like standard Western underestimation of Soviet technical-industrial capabilities (the sort that made them believe the USSR could never build an atomic bomb) then sound analysis.

Indeed, the very next paragraph, which you quite notably left out, goes on to state that since the USSR was "diverting a substantially higher percentage of its limited resources to war-making capacities, more than offset its poverty and placed itself in a position of conventional military superiority."

Indeed, we didn't supply the Luftwaffe with 60% of its AV gas or thousands of aircraft like we did with the Soviets. The Germans also had a functioning high altitude interceptor force up until their defeat, while the Soviets had to begin constructing one at the start of the Cold War.

I've already dealt with the Avgas question, but would further note that Soviet aircraft production in 1945 was already on route to outstrip it's 1944 production figures by around 10,000 aircraft. Furthermore, the Soviets in 1945 did have a functioning high-altitude interceptor force, which the Cold War force was built upon. It wasn't built from scratch.
 
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The Soviets have a lot of men, but they can't support them. Absent LL, a good portion of that force will need to go home within weeks to start farming. Also, the Soviets were, IIRC, wholly dependent on the West for Avgas and other essential supplies.

At best, I think the Soviets have a couple of weeks to push the Western forces back as far as possible before their logistics force them to call it quits.
 
What did the planners of this idiotic scheme envision for Japan? Do they leave it unbeaten, and go for the Reds quickly? Do they drop the nukes, but leave no occupation force (those soldiers must go to Europe)? Do they try to ally with Japan??
 
What did the planners of this idiotic scheme envision for Japan? Do they leave it unbeaten, and go for the Reds quickly? Do they drop the nukes, but leave no occupation force (those soldiers must go to Europe)? Do they try to ally with Japan??

The Trinity test wasn't even until July 16 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_(nuclear_test) So "1 July, where the conflict was projected to take place" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Unthinkable was two weeks before it was even clear the bomb would work...
 
Maybe this is a silly question, but directly following WW2, do you mean directly following Victory Europe Day or directly following the capitulation of Japan.
So after VE day or after VJ day.
 
Maybe this is a silly question, but directly following WW2, do you mean directly following Victory Europe Day or directly following the capitulation of Japan.
So after VE day or after VJ day.

After VJ Day, of course, Churchill is out of office, but hey, Clement Attlee is sure to go along with the idea of starting World War III, right? :biggrin:
 

marathag

Banned
Yes, but how do you order your army to now launch attacks on its ally? In 1945 you’ve got British and American soldiers shoulder to shoulder with Russians.

Not everyone liked the Soviets

"The difficulty in understanding the Russian is that we do not take cognizance of the fact that he is not a European, but an Asiatic, and therefore thinks deviously. We can no more understand a Russian than a Chinese or a Japanese, and from what I have seen of them, I have no particular desire to understand them except to ascertain how much lead or iron it takes to kill them. In addition to his other amiable characteristics, the Russian has no regard for human life and they are all out sons-of-bitches, barbarians, and chronic drunks."

General George Patton

That said, neither side wanted War in 1945.

So the real question is, how far could have Truman pushed on the Eastern European nations?

Earlier post have shown how the Soviets were out of manpower, but the UK was out of willpower
 
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