HQ Why the USSR never annexed Mongolia?
- Thread starter EnvarKadri
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The idea of Mongolia joining the USSR does seem to have been floated from time to time--more by Mongolians than by the Soviets:
"Given Mongolia's profound dependence on the Soviet Union, Mongolians had several times proposed that Mongolia join the Soviet Union, yet Soviet leaders, wary of accusations from China, were not supportive. In the late 1920s, radical western Mongols...resented Khalkha domination and proposed that western Mongolia and Tuva together join the Soviet Union. In the 1940s and early 1950s the Soviet-trained technocrats under Choibalsang repeatedly questioned whether socialism could be built in Mongolia without joining the Soviet Union. The procurator B. Jambaldorj raised the possibility in 1944, when Tuva joined the Soviet Union, and Daramyn Tomorochir and Yumjaagin Tsedenbal raised it again late in Choibalsang's life. Choibalsang himself violently opposed such ideas, but after his death the Mongolian Politburo in 1953 approved unification, only to be rebuked by V. M. Molotov for their 'simple-minded error.' In the mid-1970s the Soviet ruler Leonid Brezhnev sounded out his Mongolian counterpart Tsedenbal about this issue. By then, however, the very success of Mongolian industrialization with Soviet aid had decreased Mongolia's perceived need for unification, and the issue was dropped." Article "Soviet Union and Mongolia," p. 515 in Christopher P. Atwood, Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol Empire (New York: Facts on File, 2004). http://shora.tabriz.ir/Uploads/83/cms/user/File/657/E_Book/History/Encyclopedia of Mongolia and Mongol Empire.pdf
As for why the Soviets were generally cool to the idea, I think the words "wary of accusations from China" sum it up.
"Given Mongolia's profound dependence on the Soviet Union, Mongolians had several times proposed that Mongolia join the Soviet Union, yet Soviet leaders, wary of accusations from China, were not supportive. In the late 1920s, radical western Mongols...resented Khalkha domination and proposed that western Mongolia and Tuva together join the Soviet Union. In the 1940s and early 1950s the Soviet-trained technocrats under Choibalsang repeatedly questioned whether socialism could be built in Mongolia without joining the Soviet Union. The procurator B. Jambaldorj raised the possibility in 1944, when Tuva joined the Soviet Union, and Daramyn Tomorochir and Yumjaagin Tsedenbal raised it again late in Choibalsang's life. Choibalsang himself violently opposed such ideas, but after his death the Mongolian Politburo in 1953 approved unification, only to be rebuked by V. M. Molotov for their 'simple-minded error.' In the mid-1970s the Soviet ruler Leonid Brezhnev sounded out his Mongolian counterpart Tsedenbal about this issue. By then, however, the very success of Mongolian industrialization with Soviet aid had decreased Mongolia's perceived need for unification, and the issue was dropped." Article "Soviet Union and Mongolia," p. 515 in Christopher P. Atwood, Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol Empire (New York: Facts on File, 2004). http://shora.tabriz.ir/Uploads/83/cms/user/File/657/E_Book/History/Encyclopedia of Mongolia and Mongol Empire.pdf
As for why the Soviets were generally cool to the idea, I think the words "wary of accusations from China" sum it up.
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By the time of the Cold War they also had to start thinking about courting other potential allies. How does their relationship with Korea and Vietnam, or even Cuba or the African states play if they keep expanding? Could even hurt their soft diplomacy among Western leftists. And China's the big one, as David T said. And for what upside?
I was thinking more about the interwar period or the period of the annexation of Tuva.
Another thing left mostly unspoken is that the last thing Russia wanted is more Asians. There was clearly alarm in the USSR that it was becoming "too Asian" and Russian would no longer be the majority .
I could see that stoping the soviets on manchuria, but mongolia has a really low pop density and the mongols are quite few, couldnt the soviets just fill the country with russian colonist like central asia?
It would still mean more Asians per Russian and that is the last thing they wanted. To put it bluntly in many respects the USSR was the Russian Empire with some window dressing. Instead of the Tsar you had the Chairman of the Communist Party, instead of Boyars you had Second Secretaries. It wasn't like the Russian Empire was a Free Market bastion of democtacy.
During the interwar period, the USSR theoretically recognized Outer Mongolia as part of China:
"Since the Russian intervention was not against China but against the widely distrusted White Russians, Soviet diplomats were able to finesse the issue of Mongolia in their negotiations with China. In May 1924 the new Sino-Soviet treaty recognized Chinese sovereignty (i.e., full control) in Mongolia, all the while knowing that the Chinese government, divided among jealous warlord factions, was incapable of enforcing its claims. From this time until 1945, while the Chinese government would periodically protest manifestations of Mongolia’s independence, these protests had no real bearing on Sino-Soviet relations. Due to Moscow’s nominal recognition of China’s theoretical claim to Mongolia, however, Soviet agreements with Mongolia were always “agreements” or “protocols” and never treaties, and its diplomats in Mongolia were “political representatives,” not ambassadors. Although the Mongolian government found these concessions to Chinese claims galling, they had little recourse except to accept the assurances of Moscow’s men in Mongolia that Moscow’s concessions were purely nominal." Article "Soviet Union and Mongolia," p. 514 in Christopher P. Atwood, Encyclopedia of Mongolia and the Mongol Empire (New York: Facts on File, 2004). http://shora.tabriz.ir/Uploads/83/c...ncyclopedia of Mongolia and Mongol Empire.pdf
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HistoricalArthropod
Banned
Tuvans are more similar to Mongolians than most peoples in the USSR. Plus, Mongolia was already basically an ssr in all but name anyway.
I feel like joining mongolia would just be a shitty compromise
Benefits of Joining USSR:
Russian Investment
Russian Protection
Benefits of not Joining USSR:
not risking loss of national culture
not risking domination by Russia
Joining mongolia would give less investment into the tuvan economy and infrastructure while still risking domination by mongolian culture
It combines the Cons of independence with the cons of Submission
And instead of the Ephors of the Gerousia, you had the Starostas of the Zemsovets. And instead of the Shofetim, you had the Noyons of the Great Soviet Khan. And don't get me started on the Deacons of the Cinque Ports, that's clearly the same old reactionary Imperialism cloaked in red hypocrisy.
In short: what on earth are you talking about, why are you conflating completely anachronous concepts together, and really, please, please stop doing this kind of thing. To put it bluntly: you have no clue and should stop spreading misconceptions.
Mongolia's whole interwar population would fit into Novosibirsk Oblast. There was no concern on any official level about Russia being too Asian. The USSR was arguably a Russian Empire of sorts, but it's best comparable to 1770s rather than 1890s or 1720s version of the same. And lol @suggestions that free market democracies aren't ipso facto assimilationist Empires themselves.
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Khanzeer
Banned
So can Soviets exploit these differences ? And create a Mongolian chinease border war like situation
Most assuradly they could.. Just absorbing Mongolia would do that.
Problem is the soviets would have to do the fighting. There isn't that many Mongolians to fight the Chinese.
Even today there is only 3 million Mongolians and kilometer after kilometer of step land.
Whilst there are millions of Chinese.
So any war is Soviet backed, run and fought.
So if your looking for a full on Soviet vs China was.. That's a good start along with the other disputes
Well, in the 20s or 30s, the Soviets were pretty effectively able to beat down the Chinese counterparts in some of the border skirmishes and expeditions they undertook (like the occupation of Xinjiang). On the flip side, however, these were punitive actions on the extreme fringes of China against barely-coherent warlord armies. They didn't entertain any delusions, like the Japanese did, that they could take and hold China's core regions.