How To Prevent The Narrative of Versailles Being Too Harsh From Spreading In Anglophone Countries?

I agree. The fact that Italy and Britain dropped Versailles immediately is the real issue and stopping the latter is what the real goal of the thread was originally

The easiest way is still having a strong enough Germany for Britain to want France as a counterweight.

Otherwise I'm not sure, maybe much weaker soviets, so Britain is less worried about them.

Well and Italy, why should they care about ToV...
 
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So if the stalemate dragged on two years longer, that feeling would nbe reinforced


Had the war lasted two years longer, it wouldn't have mattered what France wanted. Everyone would be totally exhausted except the US, so President Wilson would largely dictate terms.
If it had dragged on for two years, Germany would be deep in a famine with centralized power likely breaking down.
 

kham_coc

Banned
The easiest way is still having a strong enough Germany for Britain to want France as a counterweight.
No, the easiest way is for France to realize that it must secure German acceptance of the new security order.
It was unwilling to fight for anything until Poland (and that obviously had more to do with the UK than anything else).
Clearly then, the optimal strategy isn't to build a strategy around fighting, when national policy was not to fight unless the UK joined in.
By which I mean, If you aren't going to fight over Remilitarization, Austria, or the Sudetenland, then why in gods name aren't you trading those positions for anything of value?
Their entire interwar strategy made no sense -
 
These is silly nonsense. Where the front is located had no importance when its Germany who are defeated. If war go to German soil ,then there would be more casualties, and treaties would be harsher like @TDM said.

As for war guilt/who started war question. Why would it matter ? If Germany didn't behave worse than Entente, then Entente imposition of Versailes also no worse than FP War in 1870s.

Germany go to war, they lost, they didn't treated worse than previous war.
Okay, I'll bite. The treaty of Frankfurt, only mirrored the treaty of Tilsit, imposed by Napoleonic France, which utterly humiliated Prussia. Not to mention, the 19th century was the age of nationalism, plenty of German statelets, now part of the German Empire, did have their scores to settle with France. So no, the treaty of Frankfurt didn't come out of thin air either. IIRC the reparations demanded of France, mirrored the reparations France demanded at Tilsit...
 
Okay, I'll bite. The treaty of Frankfurt, only mirrored the treaty of Tilsit, imposed by Napoleonic France, which utterly humiliated Prussia. Not to mention, the 19th century was the age of nationalism, plenty of German statelets, now part of the German Empire, did have their scores to settle with France. So no, the treaty of Frankfurt didn't come out of thin air either. IIRC the reparations demanded of France, mirrored the reparations France demanded at Tilsit...
WW2 started by Napoleon! Always knew that guy left a mess behind him.
 
ToV was a bad treaty because the end goal was a third tier Germany in open ended fashion. It realistically needed three major powers to believe in the idea of holding down Germany forever not just France and even France wasn’t willing to follow through with their commitment to a weak Germany after the global economy failed.
 
If it had dragged on for two years, Germany would be deep in a famine with centralized power likely breaking down.


Which is another reason why it wouldn't happen.

Once the war of movement starts to roll back toward their frontier, the Germans will quit. An d since no one wats the war to drag out until the US becomes all-powerful, her appeal for a ceasefire will be granted.

Please note I did not initiate the idea of a longer war. I considered (and still consider) a shorter one to be the better bet from the point of getting an enforceable peace treaty.
 
Congrats, you basically turned the biggest ethnic group in Europe outside the Russians into the biggest extremist terrorist group of all time with all radical political views present, with at least half of them being even more genocide hungry than OTL Nazis were.

Oh, you also createst at least 4 big Afghanistans, one big work camp and the biggest industrial and intellectual robbery in history and a giant stravation duo to basically turning East Germany into Vietnam 0.5.
Well, in my scenario, they would have never recovered to get revenge, though.

the biggest extremist terrorist group of all time with all radical political views present, with at least half of them being even more genocide hungry than OTL Nazis were.
Which would help France if these 4 Afghanistans/Yugoslavias are busy fighting a civil war - and having completely opposite ideologies would have prevented them from reunify peacefully. Imagine fighting a civil war in the middle of a famine and a starvation?
 
And the mess as civilians flee to other countries and as the world economy is hit by the continued unstable situation in Europe. And terrorists don't necessary need a lot of weapons to be effective which there will be a lot floating around in these circumstances.

 
Well, in my scenario, they would have never recovered to get revenge, though.


Which would help France if these 4 Afghanistans/Yugoslavias are busy fighting a civil war - and having completely opposite ideologies would have prevented them from reunify peacefully. Imagine fighting a civil war in the middle of a famine and a starvation?

Not sure if they would really strangle each other that much. I think the common hate for basically every non-German would be enough to make most of the groups at least tolerate each other. Hate can be pretty powerfull to bring people together.

But yeah, the divided Germanies would have a harder time to break the world, if anything just being an absolute hell for the French to control.
 

Maxell

Banned
This is also a myth that needs to die. By 1939 pretty much all of the most onerous provisions of Versailles had been rolled back. WWII happened because Hitler had been intent on war since he wrote Mein Kampf. His primary motivations were revenge against the French for having the temerity to beat German and then treat them as losing the war and conquest of territories in the east that had never been part of Germany. The Nazis rise to power in 1933 happened because of the drift towards extremist parties in the wake of the Great Depression and catastrophic deflationary policies adopted by the Weimar governments in response. The Communists also saw a large rise in support, which spooked conservatives and business leaders into trying the co-opt the Nazis, with disastrous results. The war started in 1939 because Hitler knew that rearmament in Britain and France would overtake Germany's somewhere around 1940-41 and what advantages the Wehrmacht possessed would be overtaken. If the Entente had ripped up the Versailles Treaty in 1925 the odds are excellent that Hitler would still have come to power and plunged the world into war in 1939 regardless.
The thing was that Germany was going to be ready for a round 2 regardless of who took power. If there was anything the Hohenzollern legitimists, National socialists, Liberal democrats, Socialists and Marxists agreed with at the time, it was the conspiracy theory that there was a vast conspiracy out to get the German people, and that conquest and military might was the one way to counteract that conspiracy. Hitler didn't get to prepare the German army for WW2 without prior help from different parties, the German panzer and warplane program started long before he got into power, infact some companies didn't even wait 3 years after the war before producing more chemical gas and armaments for the future war effort. Interwar Germany was fractured sure, but there was bipartisan agreement, only problem was that it was the worst possible bipartisan agreement, that Germany should conquer other territories lands and terrorize the people and ethnic minorities there, foreigners be damned.
 
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Make the war end two years earlier.

British casualties, in particular, will be a lot less than OTL, so Brits will be that much more willing to consider using force to uphold the treaty. OTL, the will to enforce soon faded, and seeing the treaty as unjust provided a legitimate excuse for *not* enforcing it..
And of course, there is still a Russian Empire which would be more willing to enforce the treaty in such a scenario, especially as Tsar Nicholas II does not have to answer to the electorate the same way his British or French counterparts need to. Heck, simply having Russia be non-communist of some flavor or another, be it via no Russian Revolution at all, Kerensky hanging on, or the Whites winning, would probably make the treaty stricter or at least more thoroughly enforced.
 
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Maxell

Banned
And of course, there is still a Russian Empire which would be more willing to enforce the treaty in such a scenario, especially as Tsar Nicholas II does not have to answer to the electorate the same way his British or French counterparts need to.
The French would be more willing to enforce harsher treatment since they were the ones closest to the action and saw the most horrific German atrocities. The problem with the UK and the US' stance on war was that neither nation has actually had suffered invasion and genocide at the hands of a xenophobic enemy, leading to beliefs that are to be frank, naive views on how the world works. France and Belgium have suffered invasion and subjugation, hence why the common people there weren't as willing to be lukewarm and why they would infact see a more lenient peace as being out of touch with the common man's reality.
 
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France and Belgium have suffered invasion and subjugation, hence why the common people there weren't as willing to be lukewarm and why they would infact see a more lenient peace as being out of touch with the common man's reality.
Though even in France the will to enforce soon faded. In 1924 the government which had occupied the Ruhr fell from power, and the following year France adhered to the Locarno Pact.
 
Though even in France the will to enforce soon faded. In 1924 the government which had occupied the Ruhr fell from power, and the following year France adhered to the Locarno Pact.
Even so, that was because france was the only member of the entente in touch with reality aware they couldn't actually defeat Germany in a one v one, and as a result, if not for Britain, they had no reason to assume that agitating Germany could go well
 
Though even in France the will to enforce soon faded. In 1924 the government which had occupied the Ruhr fell from power, and the following year France adhered to the Locarno Pact.
I'd put it down less to lack of will, and more to lack of ability to enforce it in the presence of economic hostility from both Britain and America for said enforcing.
In other words, it's no point enforcing Versailles if the US and UK stab you in the back for it.
 

Maxell

Banned
I'd put it down less to lack of will, and more to lack of ability to enforce it in the presence of economic hostility from both Britain and America for said enforcing.
In other words, it's no point enforcing Versailles if the US and UK stab you in the back for it.
Well we could simply have pushed news and information for the the British and Americans to not dismiss the German atrocities as Entente propaganda. Though knowing the fact that even to this day crimes like the crucifixion of soldiers and the rape of Belgium are widely denied, even with massive amounts of proof, that is easier said than done.
 
Well we could simply have pushed news and information for the the British and Americans to not dismiss the German atrocities as Entente propaganda. Though knowing the fact that even to this day crimes like the crucifixion of soldiers and the rape of Belgium are widely denied, even with massive amounts of proof, that is easier said than done.
The crucifixion of soldiers has never been proven beyond doubt that I know of. It is possible it happened in at least one case (Sgt Harry Band) though even that is based on very limited evidence and may be completely false. The Rape of Belgium definitely happened but propaganda generally depicted it fairly differently than the actual atrocities. The reality was a callous and often cold blooded oppression and murder of civilians while the propaganda depicted the deviant acts of the violently deranged. The difference between propaganda and reality tended to make people sceptical of the whole affair in the post-war world. Especially those with less direct experience of the real thing.
 

marathag

Banned
The crucifixion of soldiers has never been proven beyond doubt that I know of. It is possible it happened in at least one case (Sgt Harry Band) though even that is based on very limited evidence and may be completely false. The Rape of Belgium definitely happened but propaganda generally depicted it fairly differently than the actual atrocities. The reality was a callous and often cold blooded oppression and murder of civilians while the propaganda depicted the deviant acts of the violently deranged. The difference between propaganda and reality tended to make people sceptical of the whole affair in the post-war world. Especially those with less direct experience of the real thing.
As I said before, with the Germans actually trying to be the 'Horrible Hun' in Belgium, why make shit up?
 
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