How To Prevent The Narrative of Versailles Being Too Harsh From Spreading In Anglophone Countries?

They wanted it as part of the reduced kingdom of prussia outside germany.
I never heard of France wanting to separate the Kingdom of Prussia from the rest of Germany. Was this a French aspiration?

Was it the Kingdom of Prussia (basically all northern Germany from east to west) minus the Saarland? Or a shrunken Prussia including lands from Brandenburg and east only?

When I was referring to more of East Prussia to Poland, I wasn't thinking the whole thing, just a bit more of southern East Prussia that was more ethnolinguistically mixed.
 
I never heard of France wanting to separate the Kingdom of Prussia from the rest of Germany. Was this a French aspiration?
The boldest french plans wanted to balkanize the empire. Which literally everyone shut down.
Was it the Kingdom of Prussia (basically all northern Germany from east to west) minus the Saarland? Or a shrunken Prussia including lands from Brandenburg and east only?
I think the rhine was going to be cut off in that scenario
When I was referring to more of East Prussia to Poland, I wasn't thinking the whole thing, just a bit more of southern East Prussia that was more ethnolinguistically mixed.
Ahh
 
even the French, Belgians and Italians cheaped out on their occupation effort,
I thought the Italians didn't participate in the occupation of the Rhineland? They did support the Occupation of the Ruhr in 1923 though IIRC, perhaps you got that mixed up?
 

Aphrodite

Banned
Both, but more the latter.

I wasn't harshness per se that was the problem, but the fact that it required the victors to "stand guard" indefinitely in order to maintain it - and the exhaustion after four yesrs of war virtually guaranteed that the will to do so would be lacking.

The assertion that the treaty was too harsh made a convenient excuse to appease, but given this mood, the victors would have found some other excuse in lieu.

It's more that the coalition that defeated Germany broke apart.

Russia was splintered and no longer bordered Germany but was replaced by a very weak Poland

The British returned to their island and saw little threat from the Germans. They even found a somewhat strong Germany as a useful check on the French.

The Belgians hated the Germans but didn't trust the French

Italy had fought the Austrian Empire that no longer existed

Japan had taken what it wanted and was hunting fresh game

The Americans went home, safe behind their Oceans and cared little.


There is simply no one really left. Just France who is too weak on her own.

In many ways Germany won the war having prevailed in the East.

So these terms that were so harsh amounted to:

Not being able to build a fleet that she didn't need

Loss of some unprofitable colonies

Reparations that she financed by borrowing abroad and never paid back

The minor border adjustments were the only real burden

It would be shocking if Germany hadn't emerged stronger than ever in a decade
 
In fact, the British were not viewing Versailles dispassionately, early on during negotiations, the British were one of the main drivers for making the treaty more harsh, including pushing for what would become the category c reparations when Lloyd George insisted that the Germans pay the entire pension bill of the British armed forces.

But at the mid and end point the British were panicking that they'd created the conditions for a new French empire on the continent, their institutional memories of the Napoleonic wars carrying away their reason, which would have told them plainly just how badly injured France was after the war.

And too harsh by what metric? Versailles was less harsh than any major treaty ending a war before or after it. Less harsh than Brest-Litovsk, less harsh than the Treaty of Frankfurt (that ended the Franco-Prussian war), less harsh than the treaties that ended WW2, which lead to the defeated states being thoroughly looted and occupied for decades after (indeed Japan and Germany are still under occupation, though of course we don't call it by that name).

In truth, if Versailles was too harsh, it was too harsh for the money the victors were willing to spend to enforce it. Where the Germans had occupied parts of France until the terms of the Treaty of Frankfurt were fully met, most of the Entente powers left their occupation zones and placed the burden for enforcing the treaty on the Germans themselves - even the French, Belgians and Italians cheaped out on their occupation effort, and the result was a predictable failure.



Or just make it so Lloyd George never inflates the bill beyond the realm of the possible. It would also have helped if the Entente had simply given the Germans an arbitrary number and told them to pay up in the treaty itself - the sense that Versailles needed to set a new standard of fairness meant that reparations needed to be determined by a lengthy bureaucratic process which turned it into a brilliant political football in Germany. Rather amusingly, the amount that the Germans offered to pay at the start of the Versailles negotiations was about what the "fairly determined" reparations bill ended up being, so drawing things out just made things worse.



Personally, I think the main reason why the narrative is popular is because it is a way of deflecting the failures of the English speaking powers, especially the British, who were by far the greatest benefactor of many of the harsh terms imposed upon the Germans (for example getting most of the colonies, getting a vastly enlarged reparations bill imposed, getting the entire German merchant marine, leading to 30 years of dominance in the shipping business after that) and who were one of the first powers (along with the US, but the US was far more justified IMO) to shirk the responsibilities they'd undertaken in the treaty.

Britain liked the benefits, dodged the costs and the "oh it was such a harsh treaty" myth is a way to blame the French for the inevitable mess...


Add to that, after WW2 both the UK and the US wanted to rebuild a militarized West Germany as a bulwark against the Soviets, that meant making history more favorable to the German officer class and the previous 30 years of German military history since British and American voters needed to buy into West Germany having an army was a good thing and Germans needed to want to be in the army, or at least not be viscerally opposed to having an army. That meant all kinds of white-washing of history and replacing inconvenient truths with comfortable myths - mostly to do with how the German army during WW2 were good, if only they hadn't had such an evil man giving them orders, but it also meant whitewashing the army's involvement in undermining and eventually destroying the Weimar Republic and their opposition to the treaty given more sympathetic reasons...

Now, to be clear, I don't think it was wrong of the German military class to be willing to take advantage when they were basically told "enforce the treaty on yourselves" - that kind of thing deserves the results it gets. But being willing to take advantage of the weakness of your enemies to achieve power and glory, understandable as it is, is also less sympathetic than painting the German military class as the victims of a great injustice, forced by those eeevul French to seek less healthy outlets for their manly energy.

fasquardon
c'est vrai, c'est beaucoup vrai! fecking magnifique!

British, ....who were one of the first powers (along with the US, but the US was far more justified IMO) to shirk the responsibilities they'd undertaken in the treaty.

Wait, why were the Americans far more justified to shirk the treaty responsibilities than the British?

I could see why could be more readily be expected or predicted to shirk, since their being in the war was unprecedented for them, but it wasn't necessarily more "justified".
 
Wait, why were the Americans far more justified to shirk the treaty responsibilities than the British?

I could see why could be more readily be expected or predicted to shirk, since their being in the war was unprecedented for them, but it wasn't necessarily more "justified".
The US didn't even sign the treaty.
 
The US didn't even sign the treaty.
Wait, why were the Americans far more justified to shirk the treaty responsibilities than the British?

adding on this: wilson was not popular with the republicans who made sweeping gains in the midterms, and many thought the league of nations was a step too far. This, in addition to Wilson's headstrong attitude and refusal to negotiate with the senate pissed them off more.
 
It never was established what Austrian reparations were to be and Austria never had to pay.
Austria's finances were a mess even before the war. Afterward it was completely broke. By contrast once the Germans stopped sabotaging their own economy out of spite they were the strongest in Europe. Again.
It would be shocking if Germany hadn't emerged stronger than ever in a decade
It should also be noted that by putting such a huge limiter on the German army suddenly a MASSIVE expense was taken off the books.
 

Aphrodite

Banned
It should also be noted that by putting such a huge limiter on the German army suddenly a MASSIVE expense was taken off the books.

It was estimated that Germany could pay half the cost of reparations simply from the savings of reduced military spending and elimination of princely stipends.

With steady economic growth , the reparations would hardly have been a burden by 1930.

Certainly far cheaper than Hitler's military buildup and World War II
 

marathag

Banned
Austria's finances were a mess even before the war. Afterward it was completely broke.
Austria had been the administrative center of an large Empire, and then shunk, losing the resources of that Empire, to a state one third the size of the UK or 1/8th of France. How were they supposed to be profitable at anything, let alone generate enough surplus for reparations?
For raw material, they mostly had lumber.
 
Rephrasing:

Wait, why were the Americans far more justified to shirk the responsibilities of victory than the British?

The bolded areas below are from the US-German peace treaty, specifying which parts of Versailles the US had "a right to" and which parts it was exempt from, in its a la carte approach. I haven't itemized these parts out of Versailles yet.

Article II.

With a view to defining more particularly the obligations of Germany under the foregoing Article with respect to certain provisions in the Treaty of Versailles, it is understood and agreed between the High Contracting Parties:

(1)That the rights and advantages stipulated in that Treaty for the benefit of the United States, which it is intended the United States shall have and enjoy, are those defined in Section 1, of Part IV, and Parts V, VI, VIII, IX, X, XI, XII, XIV, and XV.The United States in availing itself of the rights and advantages stipulated in the provisions of that Treaty mentioned in this paragraph will do so in a manner consistent with the rights accorded to Germany under such provisions.(2)That the United States shall not be bound by the provisions of Part I of that Treaty, nor by any provisions of that Treaty including those mentioned in Paragraph (1) of this Article, which relate to the Covenant of the League of Nations, nor shall the United States be bound by any action taken by the League of Nations, or by the Council or by the Assembly thereof, unless the United States shall expressly give its assent to such action.(3)That the United States assumes no obligations under or with respect to the provisions of Part II, Part III, Sections 2 to 8 inclusive of Part IV, and Part XIII of that Treaty.(4)That, while the United States is privileged to participate in the Reparation Commission, according to the terms of Part VIII of that Treaty, and in any other Commission established under the Treaty or under any agreement supplemental thereto, the United States is not bound to participate in any such commission unless it shall elect to do so.(5)That the periods of time to which reference is made in Article 440 of the Treaty of Versailles shall run, with respect to any act or election on the part of the United States, from the date of the coming into force of the present Treaty.
 
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Wait, why were the Americans far more justified to shirk the treaty responsibilities than the British?
Because Wilson over-reached his power (as has every president in US history, to be fair, but Wilson is one of the most responsible for creating the modern imperial presidency), and the Wilson administration promised things that it didn't actually have the authority to promise, so Congress and later administrations not keeping those promises is more defensible than the British case.

I thought the Italians didn't participate in the occupation of the Rhineland? They did support the Occupation of the Ruhr in 1923 though IIRC, perhaps you got that mixed up?
Yes, you are correct. I got mixed up there.

Interestingly, Siam (now Thailand) sent forces to occupy the Rhineland, and pulled out in 1919. I did not know that before!

fasquardon
 
Interestingly, Siam (now Thailand) sent forces to occupy the Rhineland, and pulled out in 1919. I did not know that before!
Between this and the civil war elephants I think it's safe to say that Thailand has a pretty interesting diplomatic history even after they stopped being the main empire in Indochina
 
Between this and the civil war elephants I think it's safe to say that Thailand has a pretty interesting diplomatic history even after they stopped being the main empire in Indochina
Makes me wonder what might have happened if their occupation force had stayed long enough to become part of the Rhur crisis in 1923. A Franco-Siamese alliance growing out of that could have alot of interesting impacts for SE Asia.

fasquardon
 
True, but the government they were negotiating with didnt claim that land. Turkey did claim Kurdistan, the historic greater Armenia, and southwestern anatolia, all of which they kept
Yes. They were smart enough to claim only the places that didn't really matter to GB or France.
Reparations that she financed by borrowing abroad and never paid back
And the powers that received the reparations used them toward their debts to the US. So the money went from US to Germany, from Germany to Entente powers, and from Entente Powers back to US.

AS AJP Taylor put it the principal economic effect of reparations was to give employment to a sizeable army of bookkeepers.
 
Between this and the civil war elephants I think it's safe to say that Thailand has a pretty interesting diplomatic history even after they stopped being the main empire in Indochina
No such thing unfortunately. The offer was for Buchanan at the end of his term, and was supposed to serve as a base for wild elephant populations in the US, while also being usable for military construction, not for civil war service.
 
No such thing unfortunately. The offer was for Buchanan at the end of his term, and was supposed to serve as a base for wild elephant populations in the US, while also being usable for military construction, not for civil war service.
My disappointment is immeasurable and my day is ruined
 
Had the war lasted two years longer, it wouldn't have mattered what France wanted. Everyone would be totally exhausted except the US, so President Wilson would largely dictate terms.
Well, if Germany is fully occupied, then there would be a much greater movement pushing for partition of Germany.

In addition, a later end date would have weakened Wilson's grip as the Republicans would have already made gained in Congress by then - and there were certain individuals among them, most notably Henry Cabot Lodge, wanted to give Germamy a stick on their head. Wilson would have lost the 1920 election, and Lodge would have certainly had something to say about the TTL Treaty in 1921.

The US would have called the shot ITTL, and if the US supported France's position and told Britain to pound sand, Britain would have had no choice but to comply with American demands.
 
Well, if Germany is fully occupied, then there would be a much greater movement pushing for partition of Germany.

Why would it be fully occupied? It will still seek an armistice when its position becomes untenable, and will still get it Neither Wilson nor (should things drag on that long) Harding or whoever replaces him will be interested in throwing away American lives for the sake of a victory parade in Berlin.
 
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