How to keep trains as popular in North America as they are in Europe

You might get busses , trams and subways more popular as people will use those. Practically no one in Wyoming , Montana or Idaho would ever use intercity passenger rail as there is no way they are going to those nowhere places. Almost no one outside the NEC would use intercity passenger rail so why would they be willing to pay for it?

Your assumption is that it is the people directly voting for it. When it is the politicians who do so, and expanding all public transports is a common thing during this period of time.

The increase in transportation for goods will help with this by itself, and the local politicians will vote for it, negotiate for it since it create jobs. And it is the politicians making the decisions.

Publicialy financed elections = more trains = solution to the threads question.
 
The low density of American cities is a problem too. This is partly zoning laws and that is politics.
How big the country is also a problem. East coast to west coast is just too slow for trains.
I suspect keeping lobbying money out of politics in America would be an even bigger project than making trains popular with people in America.
You would need more than publicly fund elections to shut down the influence of K Street in DC.
Removing private money for carmakers would also removing money for train companies too. During to the railroad boom, there was a lot of lobbying for train companies too.


You make some interesting points, but I still think that a natural expansion of public transportation will happen with publicly founded elections.

And that the train industry "lobbied" it only natural since everyone must do it. But where such things are considered illegal and bribery, an expansion of public transportation and the jobs that it will create, will be something politicians do by themself, especially in that era where it would be democratic majorities.
 
You make some interesting points, but I still think that a natural expansion of public transportation will happen with publicly founded elections.
Not necessarily. If we take the late 19th century/early 20th century as our starting point, there could be a possibility, but only if the government is going against demand for more cars on the road and less trains on the rails.

Before we start, let's have another look at the OP:
The title mostly says it all.

That both countries in their populated areas have inter-city passenger rail networks as dense as France and Germany have at the same time. Like east of 100°W in the USA, the Pacific Coast, southern Ontario, southern Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia, plus corridors to any major cities outside those areas Like Calgary, Regina, Denver, Salt Lake City

The idea being that both federal governments (and many provincial and state ones, too) are seriously considering building high-speed rail when the Oil Crisis arrives in the 1970s. End goal is that by the time 1990 arrives, both countries each have at least 700 km of HSR lines in operation, and 2,400 km by 2020 (the same as OTL France, roughly), or more.

What needs to change to make that happen?

Now, the HSR bit is reaching too far; the main reason why early HSR systems occurred where they did was because of problems with the original railway networks as they were constructed. For example, in the case of Japan and Italy (two countries that easily come to mind), geography was one big factor (hence why Italy took to Pendolinos and similar models like crazy even as far back as the Duce), and furthermore with Japan especially their existing narrow-gauge network was not conducive for express service.

North America (the US and Canada), by contrast, did not have that problem. The existing network, primarily for freight but even for passenger service, was pretty much a good network as it stood. The problems, especially out in the East Coast (south of Portland, ME), were based on different issues. Geography is one (in this case, the East Coast is heavily densely populated already, so there was a rapid loss of additional land to create a parallel express rail service). Another is the railway industry itself, which at the time was widely hated because of the stranglehold it held over the American economy (in Canada, this was less of an issue outside of the CPR, because the main point was to create a parallel network that avoided having to travel south into the States to go West and North). It didn't help that the railway companies intentionally overbuilt their networks beyond what we could consider dense and thought of profit over everything else - the classic case here being the NYNH&H, where JP Morgan basically treated it as the contemporary version of a hedge fund via monopolizing all forms of transit in New England. Even when public transit is concerned, it was largely the preserve of property developers and real estate speculators.

In that case, if the Progressives pushed forward with publicly-funded elections, the "progressive" thing to do here would be to push those new-fangled horseless carriages, pushing passenger traffic into cars and buses and ripping up the tracks; alternately, the next best thing was the over-regulation of the ICC to make even freight as unprofitable as possible. In Canada, OTOH, that is a non-starter under Laurier and after; instead, there would be more of a push for balanced development of both the motor car and the railway. Why? Because the federal government basically subsidized both rail and auto transit, both indirectly (in the case of the CPR, which started off as a P3P) and directly (both CN Rail, which was designed to absorb smaller non-viable railways in less-profitable areas, and the federal-provincial joint development known as the Trans-Canada Highway - not to mention regulations pre-Auto Pact that meant Canada developed distinctly different autos to American ones to address Canadians' lower purchasing power).

That's why my thinking is that there needs to be a crisis early enough that forces the governments on both sides of the border to take action, if the US wants to go towards a more Canadian route towards balanced development (and hence increase the viability of trains). The earlier the POD (within reason here, as the limit is 1900), the likelier the chance of state involvement. The Grand Trunk bankruptcy is a great POD if pushed pre-WW1 (hence an earlier formation of CN Rail), possibly creating a domino effect that affected the NYNH&H more than any other railway because of how vulnerable its business model was. That could lead to the creation of a nationalized railway network in the US, complemented by the states themselves with their own expansion of public transit (alongside further encouragement of motor vehicles). However, even with that, the focus here would be with state/regional networks as the primarily delivery point for inter-city service (considering states in the US are the size of whole average-sized countries). Long-distance service would have to take a back seat and atrophy for a while as passenger service gets rebuilt on a regional level. Specifically, to match the OP, the main regions the nationalized railway network in the US would focus on would be:
*New England (kept separate instead of a generic "Northeast" region because of the especially high attention paid to the collapse of the NYNH&H)
*Mid-Atlantic
*Southeast
*Midwest
*Texas (which slightly bends the "east of the 100th meridian west in the USA" thing in the OP, but Texas would probably be too important to leave to a generic Southeast region)
*Pacific Coast
That would basically be it WRT to focus (as far as the OP goes; the Western Region is going to have a hard time and, since it would be saddled with most of the long-distance service within the US, would have to gear its services more towards tourism and freight rather than having any possible utility as public transit, which is the route Alaska took with its state-owned railway). On those levels, it's easier to target inter-city service and expanded public transit (including commuter and regional rail) at a regional level. In the case of New England specifically, combined with an earlier state takeover by MA of the BERy, it could be possible to have a regional coordination between the states and the federal government to have each service complementary with each other; similar arrangements could be made for the Mid-Atlantic and Midwestern regions.

I should also add, though, that in the New England and Mid-Atlantic regions specifically, the network was too dense to have any sort of viable service that some sort of a Beeching Axe would need to be contemplated, even if the focus was more towards modernization. Some of the cuts could be used to expand/salvage public transit or turning them into freight-only corridors.

Now, Canada is different insofar as CN Rail and the CPR already had extensive services in most of the regions identified in the OP (the Quebec City-Windsor corridor, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia); B.C. (the Pacific Coast in the OP here) had a limited but extensive service primarily run by the province, and Ontario supplemented CN Rail and CPR service in Northern Ontario with a specific multi-modal public transportation service for that region (Ontario Northland). In most of those cases, there really isn't much one can do (particularly as the Corridor was the big money-maker), but for the Maritimes (and specifically New Brunswick and Nova Scotia; PEI's small narrow-gauge network was probably going to go in any case) there could be better investment in the railway networks there. However, that should be tied with trying to find solutions to their economic decline, and hence stopping the tide of emigration, relative to the rest of Canada; in addition, along with Quebec's Eastern Townships and South Shore, any possible solution is contingent on how developments south of the border go. As the CVR was a rarity due to it being a reasonably profitable non-Corridor part of the CN Rail network (though as one part of an already-dense system up and down the East Coast), resolving cross-border service here could help with developing and expanding public transit in both New England and in southern Quebec.

For the Corridor, all that would really need to be done would be upgrading the network (probably electrification as early as possible on the main trunk lines; branch lines are another story that will benefit as IOTL once diesel locos start getting used) towards faster speeds and better differentiation of passenger services, which means continuous renewal of rolling stock. B.C. and Ontario are good starts here with provincial service complementing CN Rail and the CPR; perhaps that could be more widespread (looking at you, Saskatchewan)?

What does all of that mean, as far as publicly-financed elections go? Since the public demand here would be reduction of railway service of all types in favor of motor transport, at least in the US (not so much in Canada, as long as making transit-oriented development beyond the Golden Horseshoe becomes an industry standard), national and state/regional governments would pretty much have to go against public opinion even during the Progressive Era to make railways viable. That way, once the World Wars start and inevitably everyone has to limit the amount of fuel they consume, trains and public transit of all types would have a revival of popularity. Ultimately, that should lead to infrastructure renewal to keep up with demand and have it extend beyond the wars towards, say, a more Swiss-like approach at the regional level (at least as far as the East Coast and the Quebec City-Windsor Corridor are concerned) as well as elements of the later MTR's rail + property strategy overall including for the statewide public transit networks in the US (not so much in Canada). The reason is that, if both passenger and freight railways are public services that doesn't appear as such (much like the MTR), it would have to respond to attracting demand by making it a reliable, efficient, and comfortable service. In that case, even the regions within the nationalized railway network are also, to some degree, competing with each other (so a state-owned variant of the later OTL JR Group + MTR) to provide the best service possible for Americans. That strategy would have consequences far beyond the US, as far as rail transport in the Western Hemisphere is concerned, but again would be against the democratic majority that was anti-rail during the Progressive Era and after, until at least the 1960s and 1970s with the freeway riots.
 
The low density of American cities is a problem too. This is partly zoning laws and that is politics.
This is the problem that emerged after 1950. Consider these population figures:

St, Louis, 1950 city population, 856,000
St. Louis, 1950 metro population, 1.6 million

St. Louis, 2020 city population, 301,000
St. Louis, 2020 metro population, 2.8 million

What you have is a prospering metro area where suburban sprawl has rendered mass transit impractical. It became a nationwide mindset in the fifties and sixties. The American Dream was no longer one of just abject wealth, but a stepwise path through autos, appliances and isolated suburban houses with large yards. Politics and zoning laws were the result, not the cause. Many locations had few or no such laws in 1950.
 
Really the geography and sheer size means that trains will not be popular as people can afford to live in suburbs and can leave the inner city behind.
 
Really the geography and sheer size means that trains will not be popular as people can afford to live in suburbs and can leave the inner city behind.
Geography and sheer size (for both Canada and the US) are not as big of a problem as it looks if approached correctly. Instead of seeing it as 2 countries, approaching it at a state/regional level (the better way to approach it as a direct comparison with European countries - e.g. Texas is about the same size as France) would be a better option. National services, if any, would be left to the EuroCity/EuroNight-esque services (of which the case would be better strengthened when looking at it from the TEE point of view) that in a North American context would hew more to the traditional "hotel on wheels" model passenger rail always had (as an advertising vehicle for the freight companies). By focusing on the shiny stuff, one misses out on the big picture and the work that would be needed to make the shiny stuff eventually possible as long as there's a support system in place.
 
Really the geography and sheer size means that trains will not be popular as people can afford to live in suburbs and can leave the inner city behind.
Yeah, but not everybody wants to. The trend of suburbanization that went, well, insane in the US after WWII has reversed itself in recent years... you see much more infill development, and people (at least those who can afford it) are moving back into the inner cities in a good many larger American cities.
 
At this point the main problem is cost and the need to remove buildings and then built the railroads.
In the US, there's sooo many unused/underused rail rights-of-way that are still in existence/never been abandoned, that I doubt that building removal would be much of a problem....
 
The problem is how do you change the political and economic background to allow this.
Which is why I posit working it as early as possible (as long as it doesn't hit the 1900 limit), with the Progressive Era as one place to start when everyone is in a trust-busting mood (and hence my laser-sharp focus here on both the NYNH&H and the Grand Trunk). By focusing on certain periods where the political and economic climates are favorable - and especially around the time when people were making those mistakes - that makes it easier to focus on reform efforts rather than having to deal with the consequences when the railways were already in massive decline (even, in Canada, with CN Rail's moderately successful "Red, White, and Blue" sales to get Canadians using off-peak travel, while the provinces were already considering limited expressway networks).
 
Yeah but its still in hindsight so we would still need to change things so people want the change.
Ultimately, yes, even with the Progressive Era (when people were thinking about efficiency, reform, expanding the role of government to ensure a much better free-enterprise system, and so on and so forth).

Now, when I glance at the Wiki article on that period, I get this section:
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Era#Rural_reform>
Apparently, the road-building effort (and hence the push towards motor vehicles) cannot be separated from how changes were taking place in rural areas. That makes a lot of sense, since it was the rural areas that were affected the hardest by the rail companies' business practices. Also, the development of the road network happened after the railway network was more or less finished. At that point, motor vehicles were very much brand-new and still in an embryonic stage of development (the definitive car of the period, Germany's Benz Patent-Motorwagen, was little more than just your typical carriage as sold during the period, with the engine and much of the mechanical works under the seat and on top of the rear wheels), so development could go into many directions. While they are not going to go away any time soon, the reform-oriented mood in both the US and Canada (although in Canada, there were considerable differences to its American counterpart, for obvious reasons) would allow some eye towards addressing the railways without having the ICC over-burden them. Hence my eye towards nationalization (although, at the time, it probably wouldn't be called that), which would not be unique - around the same time in Europe, the state was also creating national railway networks out of private companies (even in Switzerland, where the "private" companies are actually primarily owned by the cantonal and federal governments, simultaneously complementing and competing with the SBB/CFF). So the US would be in tune with contemporary trends in that case, and could be billed here as reforms addressing rural communities by doing away with onerous practices on the freight side of things while improving the quality of transportation alongside the road-building program.
 
One specific idea I had for rail travel, and based on @TheMann ideas I was allowed to borrow, involves what I said before about deregulation.

Long story short there is that the Coolidge Administration reduces the federal taxes on railroad ROWs dramatically. This enables the railroads to have more in their pocket for maintenance and profit. However, there are conditions to said deregulation that must be followed to be tax exempt, such as maintaining consistently good maintenance and service standards. An additional change is that it is easier for railroads to either merge or sell off various unprotiable railroad lines. Albeit with conditions needing to be set for said abandonment like trying to sell off the line before completely abandoning in (in the BoydVerse, this results in many tourist and shortline routes later on).

On the subject of passenger rail though, my idea was that in many cases, the railroads would mainly focus on having their railroads be peak mixed-traffic corridors to enable to transport of both goods and passengers. Something like what OTL's British Rail network has largely done as its alternative to HSR.

Then, later on in the 1950s, the need for passenger rail to be decent is recognized. As a result the Ground Transportation Act of 1965 is passed; in part to ensure easier evacuation from cities in the event of nuclear war. However, it's not until the later oil turmoils in the late 60s and 70s that such HSR lines are truly built. Albeit mainly in the German format of legacy tracks in cities and new tracks in the countryside. Unfortunately, the projects still fall into trouble due to poor planning not accounting for the US' largely spread out nature.

However, President Reagan's solution to said issue is to create several new regional Amtrak networks for the seven regions where passenger rail would be of most benefit: Northeast, Midwest, Southeast, Florida, Texas, Pacific Northwest, and California.

@Dan1988 already gave some comments that I felt might be helpful in expanding this idea further.
 
Your assumption is that it is the people directly voting for it. When it is the politicians who do so, and expanding all public transports is a common thing during this period of time.

The increase in transportation for goods will help with this by itself, and the local politicians will vote for it, negotiate for it since it create jobs. And it is the politicians making the decisions.

Publicialy financed elections = more trains = solution to the threads question.
It won't create jobs in their district, most likely cost them some. Outside of a handful, maybe, of Midwestern states all they get is the expense. Its all cost and no return for practically everyone outside the NEC.
 
Going off what @Dan1988 inspired, here's another point I forgot to make when brainstorming my own ideas recently.

Long story short was that I had the idea for rairloads to start using concrete ties and welded rails far sooner than they ever did IOTL. Perhaps in the late 20s and 1930s of the Boyd-verse. With many more rail lines being upgraded accordingly in the late 1940s and 1950s.
 
It won't create jobs in their district, most likely cost them some. Outside of a handful, maybe, of Midwestern states all they get is the expense. Its all cost and no return for practically everyone outside the NEC.


On the job side, it does create jobs when people build the railroads, and the maintenance of the rail roads.

On a national level railroads decrease the cost of transportation and open up new eras for development, at least theoretically.
 
Not necessarily. If we take the late 19th century/early 20th century as our starting point, there could be a possibility, but only if the government is going against demand for more cars on the road and less trains on the rails.

Before we start, let's have another look at the OP:


Now, the HSR bit is reaching too far; the main reason why early HSR systems occurred where they did was because of problems with the original railway networks as they were constructed. For example, in the case of Japan and Italy (two countries that easily come to mind), geography was one big factor (hence why Italy took to Pendolinos and similar models like crazy even as far back as the Duce), and furthermore with Japan especially their existing narrow-gauge network was not conducive for express service.

North America (the US and Canada), by contrast, did not have that problem. The existing network, primarily for freight but even for passenger service, was pretty much a good network as it stood. The problems, especially out in the East Coast (south of Portland, ME), were based on different issues. Geography is one (in this case, the East Coast is heavily densely populated already, so there was a rapid loss of additional land to create a parallel express rail service). Another is the railway industry itself, which at the time was widely hated because of the stranglehold it held over the American economy (in Canada, this was less of an issue outside of the CPR, because the main point was to create a parallel network that avoided having to travel south into the States to go West and North). It didn't help that the railway companies intentionally overbuilt their networks beyond what we could consider dense and thought of profit over everything else - the classic case here being the NYNH&H, where JP Morgan basically treated it as the contemporary version of a hedge fund via monopolizing all forms of transit in New England. Even when public transit is concerned, it was largely the preserve of property developers and real estate speculators.

In that case, if the Progressives pushed forward with publicly-funded elections, the "progressive" thing to do here would be to push those new-fangled horseless carriages, pushing passenger traffic into cars and buses and ripping up the tracks; alternately, the next best thing was the over-regulation of the ICC to make even freight as unprofitable as possible. In Canada, OTOH, that is a non-starter under Laurier and after; instead, there would be more of a push for balanced development of both the motor car and the railway. Why? Because the federal government basically subsidized both rail and auto transit, both indirectly (in the case of the CPR, which started off as a P3P) and directly (both CN Rail, which was designed to absorb smaller non-viable railways in less-profitable areas, and the federal-provincial joint development known as the Trans-Canada Highway - not to mention regulations pre-Auto Pact that meant Canada developed distinctly different autos to American ones to address Canadians' lower purchasing power).

That's why my thinking is that there needs to be a crisis early enough that forces the governments on both sides of the border to take action, if the US wants to go towards a more Canadian route towards balanced development (and hence increase the viability of trains). The earlier the POD (within reason here, as the limit is 1900), the likelier the chance of state involvement. The Grand Trunk bankruptcy is a great POD if pushed pre-WW1 (hence an earlier formation of CN Rail), possibly creating a domino effect that affected the NYNH&H more than any other railway because of how vulnerable its business model was. That could lead to the creation of a nationalized railway network in the US, complemented by the states themselves with their own expansion of public transit (alongside further encouragement of motor vehicles). However, even with that, the focus here would be with state/regional networks as the primarily delivery point for inter-city service (considering states in the US are the size of whole average-sized countries). Long-distance service would have to take a back seat and atrophy for a while as passenger service gets rebuilt on a regional level. Specifically, to match the OP, the main regions the nationalized railway network in the US would focus on would be:
*New England (kept separate instead of a generic "Northeast" region because of the especially high attention paid to the collapse of the NYNH&H)
*Mid-Atlantic
*Southeast
*Midwest
*Texas (which slightly bends the "east of the 100th meridian west in the USA" thing in the OP, but Texas would probably be too important to leave to a generic Southeast region)
*Pacific Coast
That would basically be it WRT to focus (as far as the OP goes; the Western Region is going to have a hard time and, since it would be saddled with most of the long-distance service within the US, would have to gear its services more towards tourism and freight rather than having any possible utility as public transit, which is the route Alaska took with its state-owned railway). On those levels, it's easier to target inter-city service and expanded public transit (including commuter and regional rail) at a regional level. In the case of New England specifically, combined with an earlier state takeover by MA of the BERy, it could be possible to have a regional coordination between the states and the federal government to have each service complementary with each other; similar arrangements could be made for the Mid-Atlantic and Midwestern regions.

I should also add, though, that in the New England and Mid-Atlantic regions specifically, the network was too dense to have any sort of viable service that some sort of a Beeching Axe would need to be contemplated, even if the focus was more towards modernization. Some of the cuts could be used to expand/salvage public transit or turning them into freight-only corridors.

Now, Canada is different insofar as CN Rail and the CPR already had extensive services in most of the regions identified in the OP (the Quebec City-Windsor corridor, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia); B.C. (the Pacific Coast in the OP here) had a limited but extensive service primarily run by the province, and Ontario supplemented CN Rail and CPR service in Northern Ontario with a specific multi-modal public transportation service for that region (Ontario Northland). In most of those cases, there really isn't much one can do (particularly as the Corridor was the big money-maker), but for the Maritimes (and specifically New Brunswick and Nova Scotia; PEI's small narrow-gauge network was probably going to go in any case) there could be better investment in the railway networks there. However, that should be tied with trying to find solutions to their economic decline, and hence stopping the tide of emigration, relative to the rest of Canada; in addition, along with Quebec's Eastern Townships and South Shore, any possible solution is contingent on how developments south of the border go. As the CVR was a rarity due to it being a reasonably profitable non-Corridor part of the CN Rail network (though as one part of an already-dense system up and down the East Coast), resolving cross-border service here could help with developing and expanding public transit in both New England and in southern Quebec.

For the Corridor, all that would really need to be done would be upgrading the network (probably electrification as early as possible on the main trunk lines; branch lines are another story that will benefit as IOTL once diesel locos start getting used) towards faster speeds and better differentiation of passenger services, which means continuous renewal of rolling stock. B.C. and Ontario are good starts here with provincial service complementing CN Rail and the CPR; perhaps that could be more widespread (looking at you, Saskatchewan)?

What does all of that mean, as far as publicly-financed elections go? Since the public demand here would be reduction of railway service of all types in favor of motor transport, at least in the US (not so much in Canada, as long as making transit-oriented development beyond the Golden Horseshoe becomes an industry standard), national and state/regional governments would pretty much have to go against public opinion even during the Progressive Era to make railways viable. That way, once the World Wars start and inevitably everyone has to limit the amount of fuel they consume, trains and public transit of all types would have a revival of popularity. Ultimately, that should lead to infrastructure renewal to keep up with demand and have it extend beyond the wars towards, say, a more Swiss-like approach at the regional level (at least as far as the East Coast and the Quebec City-Windsor Corridor are concerned) as well as elements of the later MTR's rail + property strategy overall including for the statewide public transit networks in the US (not so much in Canada). The reason is that, if both passenger and freight railways are public services that doesn't appear as such (much like the MTR), it would have to respond to attracting demand by making it a reliable, efficient, and comfortable service. In that case, even the regions within the nationalized railway network are also, to some degree, competing with each other (so a state-owned variant of the later OTL JR Group + MTR) to provide the best service possible for Americans. That strategy would have consequences far beyond the US, as far as rail transport in the Western Hemisphere is concerned, but again would be against the democratic majority that was anti-rail during the Progressive Era and after, until at least the 1960s and 1970s with the freeway riots.



That people want to get cars and or get cars is not mutually exclusive with the politicians investing into the rail system.



And this part here

"In that case, if the Progressives pushed forward with publicly-funded elections, the "progressive" thing to do here would be to push those new-fangled horseless carriages, pushing passenger traffic into cars and buses and ripping up the tracks; alternately, the next best thing was the over-regulation of the ICC to make even freight as unprofitable as possible"

No, I do not agree with that. Nothing like that needs to happen. And you use that part as bases for your conclusion, I disagree with the premise.

All that is needed, is that the politicians decide to invest a bit more into public transportation sometime after ww2 , and this can happen if there are publicly finance elections, there is no need to over complicate things, but it was a nice read all the same.
 
It has to be pre ww2. After it railroads just had too many barriers to overcome. I think the really only realistic way to have it happen is if the federal goverment is forced to both nationalize the passenger services and loosen the overly strict regulations the railroads had to deal with.
 
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