How Silent Fall the Cherry Blossoms

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Richter von Manthofen

Thanks for the Answer - interesting the info on BARI

But - is the Stockpile available for immediate use enough for a sustained campaign? (that ship held 2.000 bombs sent there in response to "german" threats to use chemical weapon)? - but for the stories sake assume it was enough stored...

And the argument : they started it holds true for the Japanese, but the Germans should be able to say the same (they strted it when they attacked our ally = Japan) - but alas the Germans lost the war, so they are measured differently.

Concerning disproportinate losses - I actually thoght more if the ineffectual use of the plague carriers - the relative few casualties - i am not sure if the plague spread is not "too contained" - it somehow feels like a terror bombing with a few thousand casualties sparking a series of military interventions - wit that actually happened IOTL ;)

Of xcourse the allies have so much more bombers and bombs, but the use of so many chemical weapons seems "disproportionate" its like we kill 100 of your people for each killed by you - at least when a new generation (the 68s maybe?) who thinks differently about warfare there should be the question raised : Did we do the right thing?

OF course the use of chemical and biologgical agents by the axis were war crimes, but wht is the ten, hundred thousandfold use by the allies ?

Its understandable, but is it justified?

BTW - I still can'T get over the untimely demise of Curtis LeMay?
 

urielventis

A lot of chemical weapon were stored and were ready to be used.
As the US take some time between the attack and Carthage Raid, we can assume that they bring the US stock in the battle area.
I don't know how much mustard gaz were stored/produce by the allied during the war, but with their industrial base production could be very high.

Remember, the Japanese launch their attack, US answer after a certain time (time to transfer the chemical from mainland to bomber base). They launch production during this time. Then in December, German attack, so stockpiles and production exist at a higher level than OTL.


For the effect of plague, US identify the threat early, so they can react (with incident and problem, but they know what it is about). We know plague today.
Maybe the Japanese would have better success by landing people to plant plague carrier. Less noise, more damage.


About the retaliation, it is a total war, the Japanese piss of the US with Pearl Harbor, then they drop Plague bomb, some people will object with the counter strike but at the end it is clearly justify. If someone shoot you, but miss, you still have the right to shoot back. Don't matter if it don't make many damage.
 

sloreck

Most people have a limited understanding of proportionate/disproportionate as it applies in warfare and the laws of war. Collateral damage, that is damage to infrastructure or individuals that are not in the military or directly involved in military work (such as workers in an armaments factory), is accepted as inevitable but is supposed to be "proportionate". That is non-military damage is supposed to be limited to that which results from a real military advantage. An example might be that destroying an armaments factory results in damage/casualties in the neighborhood, but you don't use a great deal more munitions to do this than you need to - therefore the collateral damage is "proportionate" to the military objective.

When it comes to a military objective, there is NO proportionate/disproportionate issue. If the enemy inflicts a 15% casualty rate on your forces this does not mean you only inflict 15% (or 20% or 30%) on them - if you can inflict 100% go for it. The more you make the enemy hurt, the sooner the war ends.

In this timeline (and as in OTL) Germany and Japan have decided to make targeting civilian populations with "WMD" an "acceptable" tactic. Just as OTL both countries began the planned bombing of cities/civilians from the air. Unfortunately for them, the Allies became much better at this than they (Germans and Japanese) were.

IMHO it would have been immoral for the Allies to respond "proportionately" - what they did ended the war more quickly than had they responded proportionately (however one would measure that), and ending the war faster means fewer Allied casualties (military and civilian) which is the only object they should consider.
 

RamscoopRaider

Donor
Richter von Manthofen said:
Concerning disproportinate losses - I actually thoght more if the ineffectual use of the plague carriers - the relative few casualties - i am not sure if the plague spread is not "too contained" - it somehow feels like a terror bombing with a few thousand casualties sparking a series of military interventions - wit that actually happened IOTL ;)
Click to expand...
If anything it's the opposite, in an area with good hygiene and relatively recent experience with quarantines something like the plague would have a very hard time spreading all that much, especially with such poor dispersal systems
 

Geon

Donor
Belgium and Luxembourg conclusion

Michel - first my apolgies that I have to wrap this part of the TL/story up more quickly. I have tried to condense some of your material here. I hope I have done a good job. Some of this is my own material as well. I simply feel the Belgium section may be starting to drag a little. I felt dealing with the main facts would be easier then trying to explain all the details.

Those of you who have asked about other nations in this world I invite you to write spinoffs of this TL. I will be writing about the U.S. and what happened there in my next sections and that will be my conclusion for this TL.

Geon
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A delegation was sent to speak with the King’s younger brother, Charles about the possibility of him succeeding to the throne. However, it seemed that Murphy’s Law was operating in overdrive at this time. During the meeting of the delegation a chance action by a farmer nearby seeking to repair damage done to his property during the recent chemical bombardment by the Germans set off some unexploded ordinance causing an unexploded Tabun shell to detonate killing the farmer, Charles, and the delegation sent to discuss matters with him. The throne of Belgium now sat empty with no successors. Further the Prime Minister died of a heart attack on receiving the news. Belgium was now a rudderless state.

Attempts to reform some type of government quickly degenerated. Worse, copies of Leopold’s political testament began to circulate. The result being that many paramilitary groups began to form both among the Walloon and the Flemish to fight what they saw as the new invaders, namely the Allies. Both sides blamed both the Allies and the Germans for turning their nation into a nerve gas contaminated nightmare. Refugees were still streaming into neighboring countries from Belgium creating massive logistics problems for troops trying to enter the country. Worse, the paramilitary groups started to actively engage each other as each began to engage in a form of what would later be defined as “ethnic cleansing,” with Walloon paramilitary units trying to clear out Flemish areas and Flemish paramilitaries reacting against Walloon families and communities. Belgium was descending into civil war.

The Allies led by General Bradley simply could not tolerate a civil war behind their lines, not with the upcoming push into Germany. Operation “Watch on the Rhine” had already delayed the start of operations into Germany. The continued bombardment by chemical weapons and attack on Antwerp had also caused delays. General Omar Bradley had planned to start the Allied push simultaneously with the Russian offensive. However, a civil war in Belgium could tie down much needed troops in that area. Fresh French divisions were ordered to move into Belgium and neutralize both paramilitaries. Since there was no longer any coherent government the Allies would take control of Belgium and Luxembourg (which had suffered serious depopulation by the nerve gas attacks) and they would be administered by Allied military government until hostilities ended.

The French entered Belgium even as the British units began to move forward. They almost immediately came under fire from Flemish paramilitary and Walloon paramilitary units neither of which wanted the Allies in Belgium. In fact a document started being posted in cities throughout Belgium threatening an all out attack on Allied soldiers by the paramilitaries if they did not leave Belgium within a month.
The French tried to act in a fair-even handed way at first. But when March began so did the threatened attacks by the paramilitaries. The attacks were directed not only at the French but at Flemish and Walloon enclaves. By the end of March 2,355 French troops had died and another 4,505 had been injured and there was still no sign of the civil war ending.

In Paris DeGaulle was furious. France had suffered greatly at the hands of the Germans and now the Belgians were threatening French troops. DeGaulle ordered his army to show no mercy to paramilitaries of either side. Over the next year the French army would round up hundreds of suspected Walloon and Flemish paramilitary members and either have them executed or imprisoned for life in what could only be called French “concentration camps.” Over the next two years during this roundup the Belgian civil war or as some would call it the War of Belgian Dissolution would spread into France with car bombs and bombings in public places occurring as both paramilitaries attempted to “oust the invaders” of their country.

Finally in 1948, France announced that to maintain order in Belgium it was officially annexing the majority of the nation except for that portion in the north east controlled by the Flemish and bordering the Netherlands. The French announced that Belgium would be administered as a department of France until such time as the Belgians were able to reconstitute a new government. The Flemish, not wanting to face a similar fate decided reluctantly to merge with the Netherlands. They felt a stronger kinship with the Dutch in any case then with the French and the Dutch agreed to allow them to continue to keep their language and customs.

Likewise Luxembourg suffered the same fate. Depopulated by the gas warfare that had been waged in it during the Battle of Belgium, it would take time for the refugees to return. Owing to manpower shortages caused by the chemical warfare French families found Luxembourg to be very attractive especially those who had lost homes during the war. Luxembourg like Belgium would become an occupied nation under French control. In 1947 the Luxembourg government voted due to the lack of population to dissolve temporarily and allow France to govern the nation until such time as the Luxembourg people could reclaim their land. There is strong evidence the French pressured the Luxembourg government to do this by various bribes to Luxembourger officials as well as out and out threats. The “temporary” occupation of Luxembourg was in 1949 ratified as a permanent as Luxembourg became an official department of France.

None of this made France popular with its former Allies or other nations. Winston Churchill would say later in a speech to Parliament, “I wonder if having rid the European continent of German militarism we have simply opened the door to French militarism to replace it.” Churchill’s words were angrily rebuffed by DeGaulle who claimed France was only acting in the interests of all parties.

Today the French department of Brussels and Luxembourg as they are now called are fully integrated parts of France. But that does not mean they are entirely peaceful. Both former nations have political parties (the national Luxembourg Political Union and the Free Belgian Nationalist Party) committed to keep the dream of a once again free Luxembourg and Belgium alive. The French government, still smarting from the criticism it received in later decades for its treatment of German civilians after the war has over the years considered the possibility of allowing in its words “greater autonomy” but not independence for the former nations. Following German reunification the Luxembourg and Belgian nationalist groups are pushing for the chance to vote on independence. Whether the French will allow this in light of what many French see as a disaster in allowing the independence of the former German departments and the reunification of Germany remains to be seen.
 
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Kitiem3000

Kitiem3000

Donor
A Belgian Nationalist Party? After the ethnic cleansing and dissolution of Belgium?
I think both sides would breath a sigh of relief not to have to endure each other any more. I really don't see anyone clamouring to bring that corpse back to life.
A Walloon independence party maybe. Although I'm not sure how viable a nation the Walloon region would be.
 

M. A. Dickens

Dude the French were a bunch of assholes ITTL (not that they weren't IOTL, but much more so here). Of course, comparing to Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan they're still small-time players.

Marc A
 
Michel Van

Michel Van

Geon said:
Michel - first my apolgies that I have to wrap this part of the TL/story up more quickly. I have tried to condense some of your material here. I hope I have done a good job. Some of this is my own material as well. I simply feel the Belgium section may be starting to drag a little. I felt dealing with the main facts would be easier then trying to explain all the details.
Click to expand...

Geon, this is Very good complete ! many thanks. :cool:

To be honest, i send Geon 10 parts (of 15 fat parts) how Belgium die.

Here some note:

the orginal text on event who let to death of Charles, Count of Flanders (excerpt)

The official visit Prince regent of Belgium Charles, Count of Flanders to Brussels, including also the part of where ravage by Battle in south Brussels.
in mean time a Camille van Varenberg* try to clean up his front garden, damage by fighting, what show the crater in the english herbage.
While the Prince regent Charles got explanation about the damage and how the Battle went on here,
Try Camille Van Varenberg* to get the debris out of crater, so he would less problem with dig up.what was not easy in wet ground..
so he start using hoe to get stone and debris, what take some hours until he found something he think was a tree trunk.
As Prince regent Charles and his delegation past the front garden of van Varenberg*, He swing out his hoe and hit the trunk with full force.
It was not a tree trunk, it was unexploded ordnance, more precise a Tabun Nerve agent shell
Click to expand...

Why France was so eager to keep the Walloon and Luxembourg ?
the Industrial areas and Coal mine of Walloon, fit perfect with Pas de Calais de Nord Industrial area in France
while Luxembourg Industrial areas fit into Lorraine Industrial area with Coal mine of Saar (OTL Saarland)
making France to dominant Industrial nation in Coal and Steel in continental Europe and over Germany!
also the Belgium colony of Congo (with it source of raw material and it Industrial area) get under France control.
DeGaulle use this for a political bargain to become powerful president of the four Republic.

Why has Italy, Tyrol ?
France had not sufficed manpower to occupy for the "wasteful" South area, so they cut that zone, gave Lichtenstein a part and rest to Italy
in exchange for some correction and fixation on French/Italian border.

why keep Netherlands, Flanders ?
In original concept, the Allies armed and training the south Dutch, as Netherlands militia they help to stabilize the situation in Flanders
that at Liberation of Netherlands, they have Flanders also under there control !
and the Flemish monarchist (the marjory after war)were more eager to stay under a Dutch king (good prospective Geon !)

the Last post had show the future of Department of Walloon (with Luxembourg)
and the cultural impact like the Comic Magazine "Spirou" become one of most read comic magazine in France (not Pilot or PIF)

how Elio DeRupo become 2012 for the Socialist, the first Walloon President of France
also the First homosexual President of France, while Jean-Marie Le pen dies of a seizure on this news...
 

lukedalton

Why has Italy, Tyrol ?
France had not sufficed manpower to occupy for the "wasteful" South area, so they cut that zone, gave Lichtenstein a part and rest to Italy
in exchange for some correction and fixation on French/Italian border.
Click to expand...

Honestly, Italy will take all Tyrol only if forced as at the time is just a burden economically with a population that is very difficult to assimilate, it's not worth giving to France anything in exchange. The only reason i see that any italian goverment will agree to take it will be as a condition for keep under italian sovereignity the entire Morgan line or at least OTL free state of Trieste
 

J.D.Ward

Donor
Geon said:
Whether the French will allow this in light of what many French see as a disaster in allowing the independence of the former German departments and the reunification of France remains to be seen.
Click to expand...

I think you mean "the reunification of Germany"
 

teg

Damn the French are getting a bit too big for their boots ITTL. Will be interesting to see how this comes to bite them in the back, sooner or late.

teg
 
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