How could the Northern Italy city-states remain powerful post-Renaissance

[Jfoul]

At the end of the Middle Age, Genoa, Firenze and Venice were powerful city states that had a vast economic and cultural influence over the rest of Europe, Venice controlled a large part of the trade in the Mediterrannean, so did Genoa, along with strong financial ties with Spain in its early explorations of the New World.

Even though they remained prosperous, the Mediterannean lost its seat as the main commercial hub for trading with the East and the spice road transiting though Alexandria could be circumvented once Portugal found a way through the Cape of Good Hope. So they started losing pace in comparison with the European powers that could engage in colonial ventures and easily access other seas and oceans.

Considering the wealth and power that they had by the 1500s, and bearing in mind that colonisation is really not the easiest route for them (Though Genoa is partly funding Spain so perhaps they could ask for a share), What could Venice, Firenze and Genoa do to remain at least as influential as they had been?

 

[Proto-Indo-European]

An Ottoman-screw should do the trick, or at least lessen the impact of the decline.

 

[GauchoBadger]

An earlier Suez Canal may be the safest answer.
IIRC, the Venetians were negotiating with the Mamluks for starting its construction, but these negotiations were cancelled after Egypt lost control of its Indian Ocean trade routes to Portugal after the Battle of Diu (1509) and, less than a decade later, its own sovereignty to the Ottomans.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

An Ottoman-screw should do the trick, or at least lessen the impact of the decline.

I'd argue that an Ottoman-wank is actually better than an Ottoman-screw for any long-term delay of the decline. Fundamentally, the Italian city states need the Med. to maintain its dominant position as a trade route between the Eastern and European markets in order to maintain their commercial supremacy (and this the basis of their power), which the success of Portuguese/Spainish and later Dutch deep ocean navigation and naval/commercial domination of the Indian Ocean is going to destroy if not beaten back. Since these states can't project naval power that far out due to geography and the fact their navies are built for inland seas, that means they need strong Islamic naval power to maintain the old trade networks they're already hooked into. Screw Iberia instead and have the city-states build a lasting peaceful understanding with the Sultan, and they have time to develop and build up positions that would motivate them to expand out of the Med. (due to feeling secure there), and requiring them to build the kinds of ships needed to adapt to changing commercial patterns once those emerge.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

The Mediterranean need to remain relevant.

 

[cmakk1012]

I'd argue that an Ottoman-wank is actually better than an Ottoman-screw for any long-term delay of the decline. Fundamentally, the Italian city states need the Med. to maintain its dominant position as a trade route between the Eastern and European markets in order to maintain their commercial supremacy (and this the basis of their power), which the success of Portuguese/Spainish and later Dutch deep ocean navigation and naval/commercial domination of the Indian Ocean is going to destroy if not beaten back. Since these states can't project naval power that far out due to geography and the fact their navies are built for inland seas, that means they need strong Islamic naval power to maintain the old trade networks they're already hooked into. Screw Iberia instead and have the city-states build a lasting peaceful understanding with the Sultan, and they have time to develop and build up positions that would motivate them to expand out of the Med. (due to feeling secure there), and requiring them to build the kinds of ships needed to adapt to changing commercial patterns once those emerge.

If it’s an Ottoman wank, why wouldn’t the Sultan just defeat the city-states even more quickly than IOTL and seize their lands and trade routes? The Ottomans have no reason to accommodate the Italian cities.

 

[Byzantion]

At the end of the Middle Age, Genoa, Firenze and Venice were powerful city states that had a vast economic and cultural influence over the rest of Europe, Venice controlled a large part of the trade in the Mediterrannean, so did Genoa, along with strong financial ties with Spain in its early explorations of the New World.

Even though they remained prosperous, the Mediterannean lost its seat as the main commercial hub for trading with the East and the spice road transiting though Alexandria could be circumvented once Portugal found a way through the Cape of Good Hope. So they started losing pace in comparison with the European powers that could engage in colonial ventures and easily access other seas and oceans.

Considering the wealth and power that they had by the 1500s, and bearing in mind that colonisation is really not the easiest route for them (Though Genoa is partly funding Spain so perhaps they could ask for a share), What could Venice, Firenze and Genoa do to remain at least as influential as they had been?

What if if they invest successfully into the New World trade, maybe setting up colonies ?

 

[LSCatilina]

So they started losing pace in comparison with the European powers that could engage in colonial ventures and easily access other seas and oceans.

They began to loose pace, for most of them, in the late XIVth/XVth century. It's how Gian Galeazzo Visconti was able to briefly unify Northern Italy under Milanese dominance. The rise of bureaucratic-feudal states in Europe (France, German states, England, Spanish states, etc.) meant that by sheer power they would be overshadowed : note that maritime trading cities were a relative exception, Firenze owed much of its influence to being a banking and financial place rather than commercial.
Eventually the outer and inner political turmoil of municipal states in Italy was just one factor in their disappearance, but it had a vested influence : you can have either a politically powerful Northern Italy or maintaining city-states but not both after the XVth.

 

[Flavius Iulius Nepos]

you can have either a politically powerful Northern Italy or maintaining city-states but not both after the XVth.

What about a different Italic league? A different evolution could lead to a powerful Italy (or at least one that is not eaten by the European powers) while partially preserving the autonomy of each city-states.
However I agree that the best option is an ottoman screw ( or any alternate eastern screw) allowing Venice and Genoa to hold their possession in the Mediterranean and possibly even expand (territorially or just by extending their commecial influence).

 

[LSCatilina]

What about a different Italic league?

They tended to be defensive, and not prone to be particularly held : how Italian city-states switched sides or changed politics during the Italian Wars doesn't makes me hopeful for this solution.

while partially preserving the autonomy of each city-states.

On this regard, city-states tended to be the worst ennemy of city-states, just look at how Florence swallowed up its neighbours in the XVth, to say nothing about Milan. It's why European powers managed to have a field day in Italy, and be seen at least by some as liberating allies.

 

[FillyofDelphi]

If it’s an Ottoman wank, why wouldn’t the Sultan just defeat the city-states even more quickly than IOTL and seize their lands and trade routes? The Ottomans have no reason to accommodate the Italian cities.

Because it'd be more profitable to simply levy a customs duty or tribute on, say, Venetian merchants operating in Egypt shipping luxuries rather than try to take over the system themselves? Have the Italian city-states pay the Sultan a fixed sum every year for the right to maintain their colonies (Like Ragusa did) or reach an agreement to receive Capitulations in exchange for surrendering political control of strategically sensitive regions. If they're integrated into the mercantile class of the Empire and have their companies dominate the profits of the Asiatic trade, than you could easily have one of the city-states piggy back off expanding Ottoman influence and feed that money into expanding their power on the mainland

 

[cmakk1012]

Because it'd be more profitable to simply levy a customs duty or tribute on, say, Venetian merchants operating in Egypt shipping luxuries rather than try to take over the system themselves? Have the Italian city-states pay the Sultan a fixed sum every year for the right to maintain their colonies (Like Ragusa did) or reach an agreement to receive Capitulations in exchange for surrendering political control of strategically sensitive regions. If they're integrated into the mercantile class of the Empire and have their companies dominate the profits of the Asiatic trade, than you could easily have one of the city-states piggy back off expanding Ottoman influence and feed that money into expanding their power on the mainland

It’s possible, but I can easily see Ottoman mercantile interests deciding that they’d rather cut out the middle man. Moreover, if the city-states are so weak as to have to play ball with the Ottomans then there’s a good chance that the Ottomans have naval dominance, which means that they could actually try and conquer the city-states themselves...

 

[FillyofDelphi]

It’s possible, but I can easily see Ottoman mercantile interests deciding that they’d rather cut out the middle man. Moreover, if the city-states are so weak as to have to play ball with the Ottomans then there’s a good chance that the Ottomans have naval dominance, which means that they could actually try and conquer the city-states themselves...

Given how lenient the Ottoman political elite were towards forgein/minority Millet personages and communities in the mercantile trades outside of areas of state monopolies, such a move dosen't seem to align with the Ottoman character. Furthermore, direct conquest of the Italian city-states is probably a bridge too far without completely screwing Austria, Iberia, and France and the wank being specifically in a Western European direction; even than, the Ottomans were quite willing to allow tributaries along their periphery; there's nothing to stop Venice from just paying the Turks off and acting as a friendly hedge on their northern march (saving the Turks the expense and logistical headache of keeping a massive military presence so far from Konstantinyye and so close to powerful rivals).

Perhaps this is more likely in a specifically "Eastern" Ottoman wank rather than a "Western" expansion behoynd Vienna scenario.

 

[Flavius Iulius Nepos]

They tended to be defensive, and not prone to be particularly held : how Italian city-states switched sides or changed politics during the Italian Wars doesn't makes me hopeful for this solution.


On this regard, city-states tended to be the worst ennemy of city-states, just look at how Florence swallowed up its neighbours in the XVth, to say nothing about Milan. It's why European powers managed to have a field day in Italy, and be seen at least by some as liberating allies.

The chances are low, that s true, but maybe there is a way to teach the Italians a painful (with only short term effects) lesson about not calling European powers against rivals.
This or maybe you need an hegemonic state that allow autonomy to other states while enforcing a common foreign policy or a vague sense of unity.
Maybe the Papacy or maybe Venice...

 

[Milites]

The Italian wars pretty much delegated the vernacular states to the backseat of history on the peninsular. Once the French came tumbling over the Alps, the Spanish got involved, which, in the end, pretty much meant that the Habsburgs winded up calling the shots for the better part of the 16/17th centuries.

 

[Neoteros]

Once proto-national states begun forming north of the Alps, the city-states of Italy were doomed: no amount of prestige and wealth is going to save you from Austria, France or Spain. You'd need to unify the peninsula while it's at its most prosperous, but the Papal States are a huge obstacle to it all.