So, when did HRE became a universally acknowledged historical curiosity, as opposed to having some real power? In other words, when did HRE actually became irrelevant, kept going through tradition, but with no actual power/advantage attached to title itself? Just wondering, not for any specific purpose.
Holy Roman Empire question
- Thread starter Midgard
- Start date
When HRE dissolved itself... about 18th-19th century was no more than a name and a dead title...
But that's more or less a given... I was thinking it became more insignificant in the aftermath of 30 Year War, although some might imagine it happening around Frederick II's time. I guess I am interested in what is the last time HRE was anything but an empty title, or if it actually kept some kind of real significance until the very end.
Well, according to a book about the impact of the French Revolution on the HRE I'm actually reading, the Reichstag still considered the raising of a unified imperial army in 1793 - the smaller states did approve more of joint action, but they feared that the large states, especially Austria and Prussia, only intended to abuse the common institutions to serve their own purposes.
But the possibility that - against some common threat - the states would get their act together and implement a real constitutional reform isn't impossible per se...
But the possibility that - against some common threat - the states would get their act together and implement a real constitutional reform isn't impossible per se...
Susano
Banned
Well, personally, I would say the point where the centrifugal powers took over in Germany was during and after the reign of Frederick II. (the "Heretic King", son of Barbarossa). Frederick spent most his life in Sicily, which he also ruled, and concentrated his efforts there. With the Confoederatio cum principibus ecclesiasticis and the Statutum in favorem principum he ceded nearly all royal rights to the bishops and princes, and the Interregnum following his death ensured that the princes also took and held those rights.
Still, of course, the HRE was a power, but from thereon it went downhill. IMO, at least. But you asked for the point where it was ridiculed...
Then there was the Westphalian Peace, of course. Institutionally, already that Peace left the Empire to be "living corpse". However, only institutionally, as said, not yet in the heads of the people. The imperial vision was still there, which can be seen in the agressions of Louis XIV. in the late 17th century. Nearly the whole Empire rallied against him, even though they werent directly concerned.
The HREGN was in the end seen as ridicolous abnominations due to two processes of the 18th century:
For one, the princes realised more and more just what power they had. Whereas before there still was imperial solidarity, now more an dmore own intersts and realpolitik came to the forefront. Examples for that are of course Frederick II of Prussia and Max Emanuel of Bavaria, who allied with the French against the Emperor in the War of Spanish Sucession. However, even then he still was declared udner Reichsacht (the imperial ban) by the Reichstag.
The other process was the enlightment, and to modern enlightment thoughts the HREGN really was an archaic abnomination. Its no happenstance that it was Voltaire, the forethinker of enlightment, who said the famous quote about the HREGN, neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.
So, if you want a TL with a more centralised HRE, you should best start with Frederick II, or maybe even his father Barbarossa. However, even late rthinsg can be salvaged, up to the 30 Years War. Afterwards, everythings too late, but people only realised that in the 18th century.
Still, of course, the HRE was a power, but from thereon it went downhill. IMO, at least. But you asked for the point where it was ridiculed...
Then there was the Westphalian Peace, of course. Institutionally, already that Peace left the Empire to be "living corpse". However, only institutionally, as said, not yet in the heads of the people. The imperial vision was still there, which can be seen in the agressions of Louis XIV. in the late 17th century. Nearly the whole Empire rallied against him, even though they werent directly concerned.
The HREGN was in the end seen as ridicolous abnominations due to two processes of the 18th century:
For one, the princes realised more and more just what power they had. Whereas before there still was imperial solidarity, now more an dmore own intersts and realpolitik came to the forefront. Examples for that are of course Frederick II of Prussia and Max Emanuel of Bavaria, who allied with the French against the Emperor in the War of Spanish Sucession. However, even then he still was declared udner Reichsacht (the imperial ban) by the Reichstag.
The other process was the enlightment, and to modern enlightment thoughts the HREGN really was an archaic abnomination. Its no happenstance that it was Voltaire, the forethinker of enlightment, who said the famous quote about the HREGN, neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.
So, if you want a TL with a more centralised HRE, you should best start with Frederick II, or maybe even his father Barbarossa. However, even late rthinsg can be salvaged, up to the 30 Years War. Afterwards, everythings too late, but people only realised that in the 18th century.
Do you mean his grandfather Barbarossa? It was actually the point of my Unholy Roman Empire TL of a while back, although going towards a different conclusion. You do bring up some very interesting points about 1648 though - it is the era I am not terribly knowledgeable about, and it is interesting to see this kind of a take on it.
Susano
Banned
Well, the Middle Ages inr eturn are not exactly my field of knowledge. Really, whoever remembers Henriy VI?
Faeelin
Banned
Well, the Middle Ages inr eturn are not exactly my field of knowledge. Really, whoever remembers Henriy VI?
I think the real question is how could you not remember him?
Not as flashy as Frederick II, but way more effective.
Susano
Banned
No, it wasnt. It was no nation-state, true. but it was no federation, but a feudal state. The principal internal conflicts of every state of the medieval and early modern period was cental power vs centrifugal powers. In the HRE, the centrifugal powers won, with the consequence of the feudal state dissolving into loose federation. In that sense the HRE failed already due to Frederick II.
Faeelin
Banned
I dunno. I don't think the nobles wanted a strong monarch... so if they got what they wanted, isn't it more accurate to say Staufen ambitions failed?
There was an imperial tax, or at least talk of one, as late as the 16th century, IIRC.
One of the more ghostly PODs lurking around the early modern era is a a Germany united by the Habsburgs in the early 16th century.
Ottoman Italy, broken France, with only them left to save the Empire?
Susano
Banned
Staufens, habsburgs or whatever the monarchy was. And whoeevr was Emperor WAS the Empire, after all. Were after all not talking about a democracy.
Faeelin
Banned
You're right; we're talking about a federation of free Germanic princes bound to their emperor by feudal ties.
Susano
Banned
Thats the point: No federation
You can call it a federation after the Westphalian peace when the Imperial Diet repalced the Emperor as most importantc entral institution. As for before you seem to hav etrouble understanding a feudal system which frankly somewhat surprises me.
Faeelin
Banned
Thats the point: No federation
You can call it a federation after the Westphalian peace when the Imperial Diet repalced the Emperor as most importantc entral institution. As for before you seem to hav etrouble understanding a feudal system which frankly somewhat surprises me.
Actually, part of it's me pulling your leg, the other part is that I don't think it qualifies as a feudal institution, since the princes and cities were more powerful than those of most other states.
Max Sinister
Banned
As I always say, After the election of two Roman kings at the same time in 1256, the HRE got splintered into some hundred political entities, which kept Germany divided for centuries. The next few kings might've reversed that, but didn't. I once read the claim that Albrecht of Habsburg was the last emperor / Roman king who could've done it.
The HRE became a curiosity at the 25th February 1803, when all the tiny principalities and church possessions were devoured by the bigger fishes in the pond.
Up to that point you still had small territories that depended upon the HRE to keep existing, so it was in their best interest to sustain it. It would have been still salvagable had Leopold II lived longer, I think. After that point, however, nobody cared anymore.
Up to that point you still had small territories that depended upon the HRE to keep existing, so it was in their best interest to sustain it. It would have been still salvagable had Leopold II lived longer, I think. After that point, however, nobody cared anymore.
Would it be possible for the surrounding powers to vassalize large areas of the HRE (Saxony, Bavaria, Bohemia, etc) and each power takes over as Electors?