HMS Warspite in Falklands war

[Garrison]

Why would the RN, whose focus during the latter part of the Cold War era is on ASW keep an utterly obsolete, incredibly expensive to maintain battleship on the books? I mean Warspite would be a fitting museum ship but in terms of the needs of the RN and British defence between the 1950s and 1980s what possible purpose would she serve? No one expected anything like the Falklands War to happen, hence why the British had to scramble so hard to put together a force to fight. if they did expect such a threat they would have done what they did in 1978 and send a destroyer or two into the area to discourage any such plans.
The Iowa's were several decades newer and had the kind of expensive refits the USN could afford and the RN couldn't to keep them vaguely relevant and I thinks its questionable whether it was really worth the effort even for them.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Wouldn't that have been a sight to behold.

Sadly no.

Victory by 1982 was no longer ‘buoyant’

A combination of age, George V insisting that she be raised up on ‘poles’ for all to see (putting undue stress on her hull) and the Luftwaffe bombing her (the scoundrels) would have resulted in her sinking as soon as the basin was flooded let alone making it out of the harbour!

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

Was Warpsite the ship:

• hit by a shell at Jutland damaging her steering gear ( that was never right thereafter)

the fact she was floating at all by the end of her second war is pretty incredible!

It wasn't enemy action that sent Warspite circling - she had issues with her rudder engine right from the start, and it kicked in several times over her long career. Perhaps it kicked in for old times' sake off Prussia Cove. Jutland was just one of those times the crew wished they could <Alt><Ctrl><Del>

 

[CalBear]

When you're calling it in 50 yards away from where you are, a kill radius of 75 yards isn't ideal.

First requirement is that the bang is where you ask for it to be.
Second up is that it arrives as soon as you ask for it.
Bigger bangs was way down the list.

It might be different in different terrain types, but the terrain types in question were peat bogs or folded rocky mountains that provide a pretty fair first approximation of protected terrain.

Okay. Seems reasonable.

Sounds like secondary batteries of 100mm. How about for artillery four Miles away?

 

[alspug]

I'm curious why there is this fascination with having big-gun ships involved in the Falklands War of 1982.

Regardless of the state of repair of the ship, they would have been of use purely as a threat magnet.

If we were to wave a magic wand, and say that Warspite (or any other big gun ship) were instantly restored to pristine condition, and somehow the crew of the period (because the RN didn't exactly have excess manpower familiar with WWI equipment) came with it, in full health and the bloom of their prime, it would still be rather less use than a bar of nutty.

I called in NGFS during the war. I really didn't care whether the brick falling on the target was 4", 5.25", 11", or 16". Unlike some ladies in different circumstances, I can honestly say size doesn't matter.

What matters is speed of response and reliability of placement.

NGFS is definately more about speed of response over size. The 6 inch becoming the Western artillery of choice has been due to it being the smallest that will kill a tank with a direct hit at max range. Anything more is overkill and too big to be useful. The Naval Gun Fire from a 5 inch will do all that is needed unless the enemy has 3 foot thick bunkers in which case Air support will do the job. Another interesting possibility today is for the SDB with a rocket booster to be theNaval Fire Support. Best of all it's a 250lb bomb which puts you in the 8 inch fire support level of devastation but with rather more filling thus larger effect on target. IE 21 lb in 8 inch shell and 96lb in Mk 81 bomb (SDB guides this as far as I am aware. If you need a longer range SDB from surface firing you just get a rocket able to launch it higher. GLSDB has a range using M26 rocket motor from the HIMARS and MLRS mk 270 of 150km roughly. This is very long range compared to NGFS and also very good firepower. IE mount a 6 round pod on a launcher and fire once every minute or two.

 

[Dorknought]

Her sister ship Valiant gave a good try, what with being crippled by a dry dock….

Agreed, but nothing can beat locking down the circuit breakers...

 

[freelander]

The problem with Naval Gun Fire in the Falklands is that the soil is very wet the only she’ll that really would work would be Air Burst as to bunker a simple HE would be ok. I watched a demo of NGF whilst spending six months counting Penguins. As to Warspite I tend to think that she would break her back on the way down she was well and truly broke. Keeping Vanguard would be a better idea she is almost new with only deliver miles on the clock. she could have bolt on Sea Wolf point defence and most probably Sea Dart in-place of one of her turrets or even two. Which would help out on the weight issue.

The Navy did have a look a bringing HMS Tiger back but alas the will and money was not there.

 

[TheMann]

Warspite was truly a floating hulk of scrap metal by the end of WWII with all the damage she'd taken, no matter what you do it isn't gonna be capable of being sent down to the Falklands in 1982. Even converted to being a museum ship corrosion may have made her horribly unsafe by then.

Now, as far as a British BB in the Falklands, everyone's points here are correct about how the RN doesn't really have the budget, manpower or need to maintain such a ship unless you dramatically change the course of the UK post-World War II. If somehow you can make Britain have the finances and political will to have a globe-spanning Navy after the War, you may be able to convince the Admiralty to keep a BB or two in reserve "just in case", but even then you'd need to able to quickly get a capable crew for a BB to be sent to the Falklands, which would be a tricky task to accomplish on short notice. Vanguard would be the obvious choice to keep because of her better speed and being nearly unused, but even that requires the UK to have a very different geopolitical situation for that to be feasible.

 

[jsb]

Although did Warrior ever see combat?

Is that not the best kind of weapon one so powerful that it make nobody want to fight you?

Now, as far as a British BB in the Falklands, everyone's points here are correct about how the RN doesn't really have the budget, manpower or need to maintain such a ship unless you dramatically change the course of the UK post-World War II. If somehow you can make Britain have the finances and political will to have a globe-spanning Navy after the War, you may be able to convince the Admiralty to keep a BB or two in reserve "just in case", but even then you'd need to able to quickly get a capable crew for a BB to be sent to the Falklands, which would be a tricky task to accomplish on short notice. Vanguard would be the obvious choice to keep because of her better speed and being nearly unused, but even that requires the UK to have a very different geopolitical situation for that to be feasible.

The issue is that if they can afford to pay for a BB they will instead pay to keep a real CV as it's better and that will probably stop the war from happening?

 

[sparky42]

The issue is that if they can afford to pay for a BB they will instead pay to keep a real CV as it's better and that will probably stop the war from happening?

Pretty much this, surely? A UK that has the spare capacity to keep any Battleship in Reserve is surely a UK that is in far better economic and therefore militarily position than OTL, in which case would the Junta even think that there was a chance to take the Islands without a reaction from the UK?

 

[Mike D]

Although Vanguard is newer, wouldn't the RN be better to keep the KGVs if they want battleships post war? Although it's very unlikely they can afford all four without ASB levels of changes in the UK economy, they could keep two (one in service, one in reserve/refit) and the other two can be scrapped for parts.

 

[jsb]

Although Vanguard is newer, wouldn't the RN be better to keep the KGVs if they want battleships post war? Although it's very unlikely they can afford all four without ASB levels of changes in the UK economy, they could keep two (one in service, one in reserve/refit) and the other two can be scrapped for parts.

Is Vanguard not really a KVG in parts terms (or they could be got off the older QE/R that have gone to the breakers)? And anyway a lot of the "parts" will be hand fitted between RN ships of that age?

 

[TheMann]

The issue is that if they can afford to pay for a BB they will instead pay to keep a real CV as it's better and that will probably stop the war from happening?

Pretty much this, surely? A UK that has the spare capacity to keep any Battleship in Reserve is surely a UK that is in far better economic and therefore militarily position than OTL, in which case would the Junta even think that there was a chance to take the Islands without a reaction from the UK?

I don't disagree with you guys, but I was commenting assuming that the Argentines were gonna try their luck no matter the state of the RN, though you are correct in pointing out that the Brits would surely have proper flattops in this world, which would be awful news for the Argentines.

 

[RandomChance]

Regarding KGV vs Vanguard, I seem to recall that Vanguard’s design was essentially the proposed Lion, with lessons learned from the KGV’s (notably the loss of Prince of Wales). They added more sheer to the bow which apparently made her a more seaworthy ship than the KGVs too.
Still doesn’t get passed the economics of retaining any BB though.

 

[Look More Closely Later]

Really?

I would think that a couple 15" high capacity shells with a kill radius of at least 75 yards (effective radius of the British 15"/42 Mk 11,938 lb HE shell is scant, to say the least). The 16" high capacity round from the U.S. had a unprotected lethal radius of 150 yards simply from concussion. Made a 30 foot diameter crater that could be 20 feet deep.

There was an ASB thread which put one of the British Pacific Fleet units from towards the end of WW2 in the Falklands, I think, where a trip to bomb the runway at Port Stanley was negated by the craters a main battleship armament could put in the runway instead...
The Argentinians being short on an option to 'sink with submarines' led to some discussion of how useful an Exocet would be against WW2 battleship armour, and what late WW2 anti-aircraft flak could do?
I think it might have been this ASB thread: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/vians-the-man.391252/

 

[CalBear]

There was an ASB thread which put one of the British Pacific Fleet units from towards the end of WW2 in the Falklands, I think, where a trip to bomb the runway at Port Stanley was negated by the craters a main battleship armament could put in the runway instead...
The Argentinians being short on an option to 'sink with submarines' led to some discussion of how useful an Exocet would be against WW2 battleship armour, and what late WW2 anti-aircraft flak could do?
I think it might have been this ASB thread: https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/vians-the-man.391252/

The Exocet presented a nut trivial threat, mainly due to the potential for fire from unburned solid rocket fuel igniting after the missile hit. The biggest question was if there was sufficient firefighting equipment, of the right type, to put out a fire burning hot enough to literally melt through the deck.

The AA on any WW II ship, even the late war ships with the top grade for the time, radars were entirely inadequate to deal with a 700mph attacker that was only 4 foot wide and attacking from wavetop level (just look at the problems those weapons present to modern ships with SAMs).

 

[I want to learn]

I propose a 1914 POD with a major butterfly net: German battlecruisers break out into the Atlantic to rendezvous with von Spee, pursued by Royal Navy fast battleships. A longer Falklands campaign culminates in a battle which cripples HMS Warspite, which is run aground outside Port Stanley. ~70 years later her hulk is used as strong point for Royal Marines.

 

[jsb]

I propose a 1914 POD with a major butterfly net: German battlecruisers break out into the Atlantic to rendezvous with von Spee, pursued by Royal Navy fast battleships. A longer Falklands campaign culminates in a battle which cripples HMS Warspite, which is run aground outside Port Stanley. ~70 years later her hulk is used as strong point for Royal Marines.

What about being more realistic and say in early 1950 during the Korean War rearmament, fit a couple of HMS Warspite single 6 in guns for Stanley coastal defence to replace the old WW1 1900 6″ Breech Loading (BL) Mk. VII WW2 CD guns? Then have them fire at the invasion force?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

I propose a 1914 POD with a major butterfly net: German battlecruisers break out into the Atlantic to rendezvous with von Spee, pursued by Royal Navy fast battleships. A longer Falklands campaign culminates in a battle which cripples HMS Warspite, which is run aground outside Port Stanley. ~70 years later her hulk is used as strong point for Royal Marines.

That wouldn't work, Warspite was still fitting out when Von Spee visited the Falklands. The German's couldn't have kept their Battlecruisers at sea long enough to fight in the South Atlantic either. Unlike the British they didn't have a world wide network of coaling stations.

 

[YYJ]

What about being more realistic and say in early 1950 during the Korean War rearmament, fit a couple of HMS Warspite single 6 in guns for Stanley coastal defence to replace the old WW1 1900 6″ Breech Loading (BL) Mk. VII WW2 CD guns? Then have them fire at the invasion force?

POD: Warspite makes it to the breakers and is scrapped. The scrap steel is used in various defence industry production in the following years and makes its way into the aircraft, ships, and ordinance used in the Falklands War.

Edit: Warspite never made it to the breakers, because she ran aground, but she was scrapped in situ. So at least one molecule of her steel is statistically likely to have been included in some piece of equipment that made it to the Falklands. Perhaps even on both sides.