HMS Canopus at Caronel

[ArtosStark]

Hey all,

I have been looking at WW1 British history lately and came across a POD that I was surprised to find no thread on. Maybe it exists and I just haven't seen it, in which case please post a link.

OK, in the opening stages of WW1 Admiral Von Spee's Far East Squadron left Asia to raid Allied shipping on the west coast of South America. Von Spee's squadron consisted of:
-The two Scharnhorst Class armoured Cruisers, SMS Scharnhorst and SMS Gneisenau (8 x 8.3"guns, 6 x 5.9", 18 x 3.5")
-The Dresden Class Cruiser Dresden (10 x 4.1", 8 x 2")
-The Bremen Class Cruiser Liepzig (10 x 4.1", 10 x 3.7")
-The Konigsberg Class Cruiser Nurnberg (10 x 4.1", 8 x 2")

Sent to stop him was Admiral Craddock of the RN. At his disposal Craddock had:
- The Drake Class Armoured Cruiser HMS Good Hope (2 x 9.2", 16 x 6", 12 x 3" (12-pounder), 3 x 1.9" (3-Pounder))
-The County Class Armoured Cruiser HMS Monmouth (14 x 6", 10 x 3", 3 x 1.9")
- The Town Class Cruiser HMS Glasgow (2 x 6", 10 x 4", 4 x 1.9")
-The Armed Merchant Cruiser HMS Otranto (8 x 4.7")

Both Fleets were expecting to find only one ship. Von Spee was chasing Glasgow, and Craddock had intercepted signal traffic that made him believe that Leipzig was sailing alone. Von Spee's fleet was deployed together to try and chase down Glasgow that was heading away from them. Craddocks was spread out in line abreast, searching for Leipzig. The Germans sighted the British first, and started to chase. When Craddock realized that he was facing the entire Far East Squadron, he turned and started running south to where HMS Canopus (4 x 12", 12 x 6", 10 x 3", 6 x 1.9") was escorting Craddock's colliers. The warships could have made it, but only by abandoning the Otranto. Craddock turned to try and close with Von Spee while the sun was up, giving him the advantage of lighting and hopefully getting close enough to neutralize the German advantage in heavy guns. It didn't work, and Monmouth and Good Hope both ended up at the bottom.

But the interesting thing is this: Canopus was left behind because it could only steam at 12 knots. However, once they set sail it was found that they could actually steam at 16 knots and that their Chief Engineer (who advised that Canopus could only go 12 knots) was suffering from a mental illness. And according to Drachinfel the ship actually could have been fixed in a couple of hours and been capable of 17-18 knots.

So, if Canopus is able to steam with the fleet, what does Von Spee do when he realizes he is outmatched? Does he still try and fight? Try to disengage? If so, where does he go? How would the East Pacific campaign be likely to proceed?

 

[Peg Leg Pom]

If Von Spee has any sense he withdraws before attempting to get past Craddock in the dark. His ships are more modern than Craddock's but he can't withstand 12" gunfire and any damage will at best lead to him being interned in a neutral port or more likely sunk.

 

[YYJ]

I like Drachinfel, he posits some interesting what-if scenarios. In the case of the battle of Coronel, more would have to change than the presence of a maximal Canopus. Von Spee's Armoured Cruisers and Leipzig had a top speed of 22 1/2 knots, Nürnberg 23 1/2 knots and turbine powered Dresden 24 knots. OTL the two squadrons met by mutual surprise, as you say, since they each thought the opposing side had a single ship. The squadrons spotted each other at 4:00 in the afternoon and had the rest of the day, all the sea room they could use, and good visibility to set up the battle. November off Chile is like May in the Northern Hemisphere.

Monmouth and Good Hope had an on paper top speed of 23 knots, and Glasgow was the fastest ship in the battle at 25 knots.

So there remains a 4 1/2 - 5 1/2 knot difference between the top speed of a properly maintained Canopus and the slowest ship in the Von Spee's East Asiatic Squadron.

Von Spee would have refused combat, and left the scene. If Craddock wanted to fight, he would have had to leave Canopus behind. This would mean the battle would roll out as historical, with Craddock and his Armoured Cruisers sunk.

As I understand Von Spee's orders a the time, fighting Royal Navy ships was low on his priorities. He was supposed to be conducting commerce warfare and attempting to bring his ships back to Germany, where they could rejoin the Hight Seas Fleet. Craddock was an aggressive admiral, but I can't see a scenario starting with the OTL battle of Coronel where Von Spee allows himself to be bottled up against the coast and killed by Canopus's big guns.

If Von Spee had just split and headed around the Horn at this point, rather than waiting a month, the Battle of the Falkland Islands would not have happened. He might have burned the coal at the Falklands in November and headed for Germany. Whether he had the colliers I'm not sure, anything could have happened in the Atlantic, but Von Spee arriving back at Wilhelmshaven is very unlikely.

A warship that would have made much more of a difference at Coronel would have been HMS Defence. She was ordered to join Craddock's squadron in September, but kept being called away to other stuff until it was too late. Defence was capable of 23 knots and carried 4x9.2" and 10x 7.5" guns, and was in the last class of Armoured Cruisers built by the Royal Navy before the Invincible rendered them all obsolete.

 

[steamboy]

All of Craddock's ships save Glasgow were older ships that had been in active reserve for a good few years and were not capable of their full speed and had older guns. The Canopus was just as old like Good Hope and Monmouth was largely crewed by reservists and had older weapons. But, as was pointed out, Von Spee simply couldn't risk getting a 12-inch bitchslap if he planned to try and get home.

If Canopus was there and Von Spee knew about it, he'd probably steer off and not engage.

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

IIRC Canopus's engines did give out under the strain, so if she had tried to move faster sooner, her engines could well have given out anyway.

I agree with YYJ that Defence was the ship that should have been with Craddock, but I would still fancy von Spee's finest gunners in the fleet to overcome either British vessel - Defence if only because she was outnumbered 2-1 by German ACs.

 

[michael1]

My memory is that her 12 inch guns couldn't out range the German 8.2 inch and her armour was easily penetrated by the German gun, So it's not that different from adding another slow and inefficient armoured cruiser, aside from the deterrent value

 

[naraic]

My memory is that her 12 inch guns couldn't out range the German 8.2 inch and her armour was easily penetrated by the German gun, So it's not that different from adding another slow and inefficient armoured cruiser, aside from the deterrent value

Well the 8.2 inch guns had a slight range advantage but accuracy at the edge of range was abysmal.

If the germans want to pick off canopus at the edge of range I would imagine all it would do is exhaust Von Spees supply of ammunition.

It's worth noting that per Von Spees estimates HMS Good Hope took 35 hits from Scharnorst during the battle. I would assume Canopus being more heavily armed than the armoured cruiser would take more this.

If the battle goes as historical (closing range and close range brawl) the germans will suffer from the Royal Navys attention whether from a massive shortage of ammunition or from damage.

If a long range shooting match the germans will still suffer. Most likely the shortage of ammunition will be even worse given accuracy at range and the fact that Von Spee burned through half his munitions at Coronel historically.

 

[thevaliant]

If you're interested in the battle, the (very) old Amiga game, Dreadnoughts from 1992 that simulated both the original battle and an alternative version where Canopus is present.
It also had the Battle of the Falkland Islands too, though that was very one sided.

The game is available for DOS, though only the base game (the original developer added 'mission disks' - what we'd call DLC - which added extra World War II and Russian-Japanese war of 1905 battles) is available as far as I am aware. If you've got an Amiga emulator, Kickstart and the ability to find them, the game was pretty good and well worth a look in.

 

[steamboy]

My memory is that her 12 inch guns couldn't out range the German 8.2 inch and her armour was easily penetrated by the German gun, So it's not that different from adding another slow and inefficient armoured cruiser, aside from the deterrent value

Perhaps on perfectly clear gunnery conditions the had a longer range but hitting at those ranges was not common. The Coronel was fought largely at night, and at fairly short ranges. The Canopus has 6-inchs of harvey and Krupps armour, but far more of it than the narrow strip on the Good Hope, she's also got a lot more bulk to absorb damage. At the ranges the enagement took place the Canopus' guns are well within range of the German squadron, and whilst they have a slow rate of fire, one 12-inch round connecting would be very damaging for a smaller cruiser or even one of the armoured cruisers. Thats not taking into account her 6-inch guns and the guns of the other two ACR's with her. Basically it would be a fight in which the Germans couldn't really afford to either take damage or spend even more ammo trying to sink an old battleship.

 

[ArtosStark]

Thanks for the replies. The general feeling seems to be that Von Spee would not engage. This makes sense and I wholeheartedly agree. But that does still leave some questions. In this case it would be Von Spee who would be trying to avoid a fight. Probably by turning and outrunning Craddock. In OTL after the battle he put in at Valpariso to the north. If he does that here it seems likely that Craddock could be waiting for him. If he slips past Craddock to the south he will have to meet up with his Colliers ( of which I think he had 3). The British did have another squadron on the east side of South America (Based in the Falklands?) consisting of Carnarvon (4 x 7,5", and 6 x 6") and Cornwall (14 x 6") and Defense (4 x 9.2 and 10 x 7.5") was about to join them. Apparently there was one more cruiser and 2 armed Merchantmen but I can't find the names. So presumably on 2 Nov a chase would start between Craddock and Von Spee. Craddock will have to decide whether to split his force and leave Otranto and Canopus behind. Von Spee will have to decide whether and when to engage. And Both sides will have to stay supplied without getting caught in port or falling behind. In the meantime, Craddock (If he doesnt hare off and get himself killed) will presumably be trying to contact Admiral Stoddart to coordinate a trap for Von Spee. In OTL Von Spee was worried about getting enough fuel and had used almost half of his ammunition. In this case he would have his ammunition (depending on what engagements, if any, take place) but he might have more trouble keeping fueled without putting into a port, and having to coordinate with his colliers.

IIRC Canopus's engines did give out under the strain, so if she had tried to move faster sooner, her engines could well have given out anyway.

I agree with YYJ that Defence was the ship that should have been with Craddock, but I would still fancy von Spee's finest gunners in the fleet to overcome either British vessel - Defence if only because she was outnumbered 2-1 by German ACs.

Fair enough on the engines. Though it is hard to know if they would have failed had their engineer had not been insane and had fixed the issue it had at the start.

If Defense had been there, the British would actually have had 3 Armoured Cruisers to the Germans 2 as both Monmouth and Good Hope were Armoured Cruisers (granted they were not near as good as the Scharnhorsts). However, Defense had 4 x 9.2" Guns and 10 x 7.5" while Good Hope carried 2 x 9.2". This would put the two fleets at even numbers of guns over 6" (16 each) and leave the British with 32 x 6" guns compared to 12 x 5.9" for the Germans. The Germans would have more smaller calibre guns with 30 x 4.1" and the British with 10 x 4" and 8 x 4.7". I would see that as not bad odds for the British, depending on their positioning and gunnery.

My memory is that her 12 inch guns couldn't out range the German 8.2 inch and her armour was easily penetrated by the German gun, So it's not that different from adding another slow and inefficient armoured cruiser, aside from the deterrent value

Well the 8.2 inch guns had a slight range advantage but accuracy at the edge of range was abysmal.

If the germans want to pick off canopus at the edge of range I would imagine all it would do is exhaust Von Spees supply of ammunition.

It's worth noting that per Von Spees estimates HMS Good Hope took 35 hits from Scharnorst during the battle. I would assume Canopus being more heavily armed than the armoured cruiser would take more this.

If the battle goes as historical (closing range and close range brawl) the germans will suffer from the Royal Navys attention whether from a massive shortage of ammunition or from damage.

If a long range shooting match the germans will still suffer. Most likely the shortage of ammunition will be even worse given accuracy at range and the fact that Von Spee burned through half his munitions at Coronel historically.

It may not actually be true but Von Spee was of the opinion that he would not be able to do anything to Canopus.

 

[naraic]

The other important question is how much higher speed steaming can the East Asian squadron do.

Coal supplies were uncertain and they were living on captured coal which wasnt always of the best quality.

Were the engines fouled? Did the bottoms need to be cleaned. Would high speed steaming with coal of lesser quality strain the engines.

They were 2.5 months out of port by Coronel and almost 4 months out of their home port by the battle of the Falklands. Short stops in neutral ports did not allow sufficient maintenance.

At Coronel Scharhorst Gneisenau and Leipzig approached the British at 20 knots while the slower cruisers Dresden and Nurenburg fell behind.

Oddly Leipzigs max speed (22 knots) and Scharhorst and Gneisenau (22.5 knots) was lower than Dresden and Nurenburg who must have been slowed by engine problems bottoms fouling or fuel shortages.

Evading Cradock (with canopus) means that the East Asian squadron will need a lot of high speed steaming. Especially with Cradock in pursuit. This can further wear the engines.

 

[ArtosStark]

The other important question is how much higher speed steaming can the East Asian squadron do.

Coal supplies were uncertain and they were living on captured coal which wasnt always of the best quality.

Were the engines fouled? Did the bottoms need to be cleaned. Would high speed steaming with coal of lesser quality strain the engines.

They were 2.5 months out of port by Coronel and almost 4 months out of their home port by the battle of the Falklands. Short stops in neutral ports did not allow sufficient maintenance.

At Coronel Scharhorst Gneisenau and Leipzig approached the British at 20 knots while the slower cruisers Dresden and Nurenburg fell behind.

Oddly Leipzigs max speed (22 knots) and Scharhorst and Gneisenau (22.5 knots) was lower than Dresden and Nurenburg who must have been slowed by engine problems bottoms fouling or fuel shortages.

Evading Cradock (with canopus) means that the East Asian squadron will need a lot of high speed steaming. Especially with Cradock in pursuit. This can further wear the engines.

Good point. Did the rules of war even allow neutral ports to sell them coal? I know they were only allowed to stay in Neutral ports for 24 hours. Seems like you would have to have it ready to be loaded when you pulled up to be sure that you were re-coaled in time.

The light cruisers may have fallen back to avoid RN gunfire. Gunnery wise they were basically outmatched by everything. Even Glasgow had 2 x 6". Just speculation though.

 

[naraic]

Good point. Did the rules of war even allow neutral ports to sell them coal? I know they were only allowed to stay in Neutral ports for 24 hours. Seems like you would have to have it ready to be loaded when you pulled up to be sure that you were re-coaled in time.

The light cruisers may have fallen back to avoid RN gunfire. Gunnery wise they were basically outmatched by everything. Even Glasgow had 2 x 6". Just speculation though.

Perhaps. The description on wiki says the slower cruisers fell behind. Will have to dig up more suitable sources on matter.

I dont know if Scharnhorst Gneisenau and Leipzig approaching at 20 knots (as opposed to max speed of 22.5 knots) was also an engine issue.

Neutral ports were allowed to sell coal but like with captured coal it was very often whatever coal was available. With a 24 hour limit you didnt really have time to visit multiple coal merchants and test quality. Ordering in advance could well be a signal to the british of what your plans were.

Especially if you went into port somewhere with a british presence that may try to buy up coal before you can coal your ships.

 

[Driftless]

Another wildcard with HMS Defence: her commander was Admiral Sir Ronald Arbuthnot. Aggresive/impetuous to the point of rashness, but any fight with the East Asian Squadron would have been more peer-to-peer in ship capability

 

[naraic]

Another wildcard with HMS Defence: her commander was Admiral Sir Ronald Arbuthnot. Aggresive/impetuous to the point of rashness, but any fight with the East Asian Squadron would have been more peer-to-peer in ship capability

Not at that time. He was second in command of second battlesquadron at this time.

He was shuffled off to defence in 1915 as a punishment for not being aggressive enough during the germans raid on Scarborough and hartlepool.

 

[jsb]

....
If Canopus was there and Von Spee knew about it, he'd probably steer off and not engage.

Especially as can he really identify here properly at range? Or could she not be mistaken for more powerful capital ships as RN has a lot of PDs that would make them run at first sight?

 

[steamboy]

Especially as can he really identify here properly at range? Or could she not be mistaken for more powerful capital ships as RN has a lot of PDs that would make them run at first sight?

The RN ships were backlit by the sun making ID rather easy, the ACR's are easy to ID due to their funnels and flush deck and if you can see a smaller but thick looking ship with 2 funnels one after the other, there's nothing else the RN has with that funnel arragement other than its slew of pre-dreadnoughts. Depending on where she was in the line might delay IDing her a bit but the range and the sea conditions would mean that Spee would still have the room to turn off and disengage.

 

[jsb]

The RN ships were backlit by the sun making ID rather easy, the ACR's are easy to ID due to their funnels and flush deck and if you can see a smaller but thick looking ship with 2 funnels one after the other, there's nothing else the RN has with that funnel arragement other than its slew of pre-dreadnoughts. Depending on where she was in the line might delay IDing her a bit but the range and the sea conditions would mean that Spee would still have the room to turn off and disengage.

Canopus class /King Edward VII /Satsuma
Even a later PD would potentially be far worse? A more modern PD might also have far better conditioned engines with full bunkers and a clean hull.....

 

[Coulsdon Eagle]

IIRC after Coronel von Spee's fleet came across a British ship carrying good Welsh coal, the best in the world for ship's boilers. And pretty much topped up their bunkers for free. It was ammunition that was giving von Spee his biggest headache, as he assumed if he was to get home he would have to fight his way past the Northern Patrol's and then whatever forces from the Grand Fleet that could catch him.

 

[steamboy]

View attachment 574695View attachment 574697View attachment 574698Canopus class /King Edward VII /Satsuma
Even a later PD would potentially be far worse? A more modern PD might also have far better conditioned engines with full bunkers and a clean hull.....

Very much so. If the RN had deployed a more actively used ship like one or two of the 'Wobbly Eight' as the King Edwards were known or a London/Formidable type which were more modern versions of the Canopus then yeah Von Spee would have been in trouble. Something like the Switfsure and Triumph would have also been ideal. But the King Edwards were, at this point part of the Grand Fleet and one of its battle squadrons and so breaking them up would be unlikely, the Nelsons were in the Med keeping an eye on the Austro-Hungarians and Italians, as were many of the more 'modern' Pre-Dreads whilst the RN was also dolling out older ships like the Canopus and Majestic class which had been on active reserve the longest.