Hitler's World
- Thread starter LittleSpeer
- Start date
Breaking the law, breaking the law...
The thing I love most about the Monroe Doctrine is the sheer hypocrisy of it. Most people only know half of the doctrine, no foreign power (aimed at Europe's numerous states) may interfere in the Western Hemisphere. What most don't know is the second half; in exchange for non-interference, the United States would not interfere in Europe or her numerous domestic squabbles. So, in effect, the United States has been breaking the Monroe Doctrine for well over a century.
The Monroe Doctrine was the basis for American isolationism, leave us alone and we leave you alone. Ironic how that turned out.
The thing I love most about the Monroe Doctrine is the sheer hypocrisy of it. Most people only know half of the doctrine, no foreign power (aimed at Europe's numerous states) may interfere in the Western Hemisphere. What most don't know is the second half; in exchange for non-interference, the United States would not interfere in Europe or her numerous domestic squabbles. So, in effect, the United States has been breaking the Monroe Doctrine for well over a century.
The Monroe Doctrine was the basis for American isolationism, leave us alone and we leave you alone. Ironic how that turned out.
arguably true, but irrelevant to the case in hand... the US can tell the Germans to stay the hell out of the Americas, and they can make it stick by sinking any German troop ships that dare to approach. The USN can simply outweigh any German naval force they come up with...
Hnau
Banned
Almost all of Europe's eight million Jews are killed, the remainder having found some way to get to the UK or USA or other environs or in hiding. The Roma/Romani are killed. All Serbs are forced to emigrate to the rump state, causing massive die-off amongst that nation as well. Poles are sent to concentration camps if found outside of their own rump protectorate. Slavs of all kind find their numbers slowly whittled down.
The Nazis most likely get nuclear weapons and ICBMs right alongside the US/UK, but they aren't internationalists like the Soviets. They'll be content to continue fortifying their European dominion and establishing a German Nazi utopia. So there will be less stand-offs and other incidents that could lead to MAD. But the Nazis are also substantially crazier, so when there is a stand-off, it could very likely spiral out of control, where the Soviets might have thought more rationally.
The Nazis most likely get nuclear weapons and ICBMs right alongside the US/UK, but they aren't internationalists like the Soviets. They'll be content to continue fortifying their European dominion and establishing a German Nazi utopia. So there will be less stand-offs and other incidents that could lead to MAD. But the Nazis are also substantially crazier, so when there is a stand-off, it could very likely spiral out of control, where the Soviets might have thought more rationally.
Stephen
Banned
After an armistice is sighned with Gemany, politics in Britain may begin to lean towards fascism also; So the Jews might not find any refuge there.
After they realise the chalenges involved in the Ost Plan the Nazis may offer free passage for all slavs wishing to flee to rump Rusia across the Urals. While diverting all those who are circumcised to the camps.
After they realise the chalenges involved in the Ost Plan the Nazis may offer free passage for all slavs wishing to flee to rump Rusia across the Urals. While diverting all those who are circumcised to the camps.
Maybe. Remember the USA seriously considered using nukes to prevent the USSR from building them, only to be thwarted by the Rosenbergs. If you get a situation where the USA has nukes, but the victorious Nazis don't, it could be very interesting...
Simon
LittleSpeer
Monthly Donor
ahh yes, we had no right to declare war on the central powers with them sinking every ship and trying to get Mexico to invade us(thats not what the telegram was about but its still part of it). We also had no right to declare war on the Nazi's for declaring war on us. It would also have been wonderful to pull all are troops out at the end of world war 2 and have a COMMIE EUROPE.
Maybe. Remember the USA seriously considered using nukes to prevent the USSR from building them, only to be thwarted by the Rosenbergs. If you get a situation where the USA has nukes, but the victorious Nazis don't, it could be very interesting...
Simon
oh, well if the Nazis don't have nukes, then there's no way in hell they'd even contemplate trying to violate the Monroe Doctrine...
Solomaxwell6
Banned
Most likely some type of cold war like the one that happened OTL. Also Europe would go through more genocide and more oppression. The Nazi's set up more camps in Eastern Europe and Africa. More or less they continue on the track their on.
I agree, but it wouldn't be as long as historically. A lot of Nazi doctrine was not conducive to progress. Killing all the Gypsies, Jews, Slavs, etc is not very good in the long term. You're basically creating a brain drain as people flee to the West. This did happen to some extent in the Soviet Union (labor camps, etc), but not to the same extent as under Nazi Germany. There would also be many more people and a much larger geographic area to watch under Germany's European Empire making it a bit more prohibitive to create the same sort of amazing international intelligence agency as the KGB. Foreign nations aren't going to be as eager to rebel in favor of fascism as they were historically for Communism, so we aren't going to see a fascist version of the Cuban Missile Crisis or a Fascist International spread across the globe. In the end, we have a nation with most of the disadvantages of the Soviet Union, but worse, and with somewhat lesser benefits. So, say, it lasts until the late 60s to 70s until Germany's empire begins to unravel.
Eh. Basically all of America's wars and squabbles with European powers either resulted from us getting attacked first in one form or another, or were a Western affair.
After the surrender in 1945 Field Marshall Wilhelm Keitel said that Germany should have taken Gibralter and North Africa, instead of invading the USSR. This would have enabled them to keep the British out of the Med, strangling them. He said that Hitler could then have offered the British access to the Med, in exchange for making peace with Germany and joining them in a war against Stalin. But could this have happened? Probably not, unless he had Spanish co-operation. Franco was either too greedy, asking for too much in exchange for joining the war, or had no intention of doing so under any circumstances, but rather than refuse Hitler outright (not a smart thing to do), imposed impossible conditions that he knew could never be met (he wanted all of French Morocco, for one thing, which Hitler couldn't agree to because he had to keep Vichy on board). Spain was exhausted from the Civil War but would still have resisted a German invasion, probably by using their terrain to the greatest advantage and appealing for British and Portuguese help. So attacking Spain to get to Gibralter would have been a bad idea. Of course, Hitler was crazy as we know, and didn't always follow the advice of his generals.
The only way this could have worked is if Franco agreed to the plan. Early in the war, when Germany looked likely to win, he might have, but not later.
The only way this could have worked is if Franco agreed to the plan. Early in the war, when Germany looked likely to win, he might have, but not later.
I think you are being a bit one sided. Of course the US will not tolerate German troops in Mexico or Canada. But the way you project things it seems that the Reich can by no means be as big of a bother to them as the Soviet Union!?
Maybe its true the USN will always stay bigger then the Reichs navy, I dont know, but it is pretty closed minded if you say a united Europe can't build a navy to be reckoned with!?
Anyway back to the original topic, your homework assignment.
If you looked for stuff already you probably already found it, but just in case you didnt I would like to post it anyway.
I think maps like this are always an eye catcher for homework assignments.
EDIT I just noted the link posted earlier, sorry)
Hey,just imagine a fascist Fidel Castro,and Cuba allied with Germany and Italy!
Hey,just imagine a fascist Fidel Castro,and Cuba allied with Germany and Italy!
If Cuba allies with one of those in similar to OTL circumstances, maybe Mexico will too and they'd be a Carribean Theatre. Sounds cool.
If you're interested there's a very good TL by a guy called Longvin. It is quite long and divided in 2 parts (before mussolini's death and after).
The PoD is what if Mussolini was much shrewder and more intelligent, as well as less Pro-German.
Link here: http://z11.invisionfree.com/LongVinsWritingDen/index.php?showforum=5
OOC: Why do people revive these ancient threads? This one isnt that bad, maybe 6 months old, but I've seen people revive 5 year old ones too.
Jim
Actually, the Germans didn't sink every American merchant ship in WWI. That is a definite, and ignorant, generalization. It was also later proven that the Lusitania was carrying war materiel so the Germans were justified.
As to the Nazis, I won't say that battling them was immoral, but we were looking for that battle. Likely we wouldn't have even had to fight it had we stayed out of the first World War in the first place and let all sides fight to exhaustion.
As to the comment about a commie Europe, most of Europe is just one step up from communism (socialism), and besides for all the Soviet wank BS I see, there is no way the Soviets would have held onto Europe for more than half a century at best. Their poor economic planning, cultural regression, and incompetent leadership would have seen to that. It is always easier to win a war than to hold onto the spoils.
Besides, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of American policy.
Speak in terms of moderation. The more radical nazi elements took hold later in the war. Yes Germany took over much but it was standard German military thinking in the early war.
Include things like how Hitler had no issue cutting out sections of the party if it allowed him to remain in power and stablized his regime. SA went down in flames while Rhom was encouraging militia and radical society change. Himmler for all the nazi wank out there had crazy ideas and underlings with just as crazy ideas. If you want an interesting spin try for a Nazi Secret Speech. Speer or a General stands before the government and denounces what the SS did in the war. "Hitler, he was a great man, but the things done in his name are shameful." Really easy to spin the holocaust as a rogue faction, if it allows the bulk of the government to get a free pass.
Include things like how Hitler had no issue cutting out sections of the party if it allowed him to remain in power and stablized his regime. SA went down in flames while Rhom was encouraging militia and radical society change. Himmler for all the nazi wank out there had crazy ideas and underlings with just as crazy ideas. If you want an interesting spin try for a Nazi Secret Speech. Speer or a General stands before the government and denounces what the SS did in the war. "Hitler, he was a great man, but the things done in his name are shameful." Really easy to spin the holocaust as a rogue faction, if it allows the bulk of the government to get a free pass.
some real plans The SS had for Europe
Heinrich Himmler
wandet Netherlands, Flander and Luxemburg to "gemanisiert"
(The official language and Cultur will be German)
Flander is extendet to Calais (was a historically part of Flanders)
also had Himmler the idea for new Burgundy staate in occupied France
a SS-Ordensstaate OUTSIDE the Thrid reich !
Himmler in speech on 5 march 1943
the map show how the Burgundy staate had look like
colorcode
Yellow: France after War
Green: annexed area by Italy
Violet: Burgundy SS-Ordensstaat
Turquoise: annexed area by Thrid Reich
pink: annexed area to Flandern
Heinrich Himmler
wandet Netherlands, Flander and Luxemburg to "gemanisiert"
(The official language and Cultur will be German)
Flander is extendet to Calais (was a historically part of Flanders)
also had Himmler the idea for new Burgundy staate in occupied France
a SS-Ordensstaate OUTSIDE the Thrid reich !
Himmler in speech on 5 march 1943
the map show how the Burgundy staate had look like
colorcode
Yellow: France after War
Green: annexed area by Italy
Violet: Burgundy SS-Ordensstaat
Turquoise: annexed area by Thrid Reich
pink: annexed area to Flandern