Hitler killed in Normandy

[Deleted member 1487]

Reading James Holland's new book on Normandy there was an anecdote about a meeting between the commanders in France and Hitler in mid-June 1944 wherein Hitler accepted Rommel's offer to tour the front to see how bad things were going, a shock to everyone, only for Hitler to back out of the tour later, presumably because of how dangerous things were to travel around given Allied air supremacy.

But what if he had maintained some delusion of invincibility and went anyway, only to get killed by a strafing aircraft while traveling around France? Let's say this happens on June 23rd. What happens next?

 

[SsgtC]

Depends on who seizes power. IIRC, Goering was still Hitler's designated successor. But Himmler was likely to try and supplant him before Hitler's body was even cold. The Army was in position to play kingmaker if that happens and would probably support Goering. Though even that is likely to be more of a front than anything. Hitler dying in mid 44 might lengthen the war by up to six months, or it could cause everything to come crashing down even faster. There's a ton of variables involved here

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Depends on who seizes power. IIRC, Goering was still Hitler's designated successor. But Himmler was likely to try and supplant him before Hitler's body was even cold. The Army was in position to play kingmaker if that happens and would probably support Goering. Though even that is likely to be more of a front than anything. Hitler dying in mid 44 might lengthen the war by up to six months, or it could cause everything to come crashing down even faster. There's a ton of variables involved here

Goering was politically marginalized by this point and was quite weak even with in 'his' organizations because of Hitler's disfavor and at that point Himmler was probably the 2nd most powerful guy in the nation. I'm not sure the army would tolerate either Himmler or Goering at that point and the July plotters may well find they finally had all the support they needed to try and take over. Thing is would they risk the civil war to do so? That's why I'm curious about the situation, because arguably there was 3 factions that could be battling for control without a clear winner going into it.

 

[David Floyd]

The fact that nobody in the Wehrmachr swore on oath to either Himmler or Goering may be significant. I can't imagine that senior Heer officers were eager to see either a chicken farmer or a drug addict running the war...

 

[PorkNuggets]

By the last week of June 1944 much of the ground work for the July 20 plot was already in place. It'd take some luck but if the plotters manage to get word of Hitler's death before it becomes public knowledge I'd expect them to make a play.

 

[Alex1guy]

What would the Allied reaction be to this? Would they have wanted to kill Hitler in this fashion? How would the German Media (Goebbels) react? What about Western and Soviet Press?

 

[SsgtC]

What would the Allied reaction be to this? Would they have wanted to kill Hitler in this fashion? How would the German Media (Goebbels) react? What about Western and Soviet Press?

I doubt it would be a targeted assassination. More along the lines of a fighter pilot looking for a convenient target to empty his guns on and finding a convoy of trucks and staff vehicles.

 

[Catspoke]

Probably the best case for lengthening the war is Hitler is badly wounded, can't really run things day to day, but this is kept a state secret. Somebody like Goebbels is doing the politics, but Guderian or somebody is running the military.

With a General or a Junta of Generals in charge, Germany does a pull back to the Seine after the Allied breakout on July 30th and avoids the Falaise pocket fiasco, also avoids the worst of the Bagration encirclement, avoids the 6th army being lost in Rommania.

If Hitler is dead and there is any sort of chaos, countries like Finland and Romania are making peace now, Even Croatia is going to make political deals if they can. Mussolini might fly to Spain and try to disappear. The Warsaw uprising might occur without any particular German responses. I can't see the war lasting until 1945. Any German army leader just can't be as ruthless in holding everything together, they are going to be looking to be not hung post war. Even someone like Himmler based on OTL might be trying to get a political deal to save his own skin after the war.

 

[Alex1guy]

I doubt it would be a targeted assassination. More along the lines of a fighter pilot looking for a convenient target to empty his guns on and finding a convoy of trucks and staff vehicles.

Oh yeah it would definitely be an accident (Germany not going to say that ofc) but did the Allies have any plans incase Hitler died? Did they want him alive? Were they worried that crazier people may get in etc?

 

[Foxx]

By the last week of June 1944 much of the ground work for the July 20 plot was already in place. It'd take some luck but if the plotters manage to get word of Hitler's death before it becomes public knowledge I'd expect them to make a play.

Agreed. It would be too good of an opportunity for it to go to waste.

 

[Foxx]

Oh yeah it would definitely be an accident (Germany not going to say that ofc) but did the Allies have any plans incase Hitler died? Did they want him alive? Were they worried that crazier people may get in etc?

AFAIK, they had no definitive plans about what to do in such a scenario.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Oh yeah it would definitely be an accident (Germany not going to say that ofc) but did the Allies have any plans incase Hitler died? Did they want him alive? Were they worried that crazier people may get in etc?

Well they did cancel the planned assassination operation for 1944 (Operation Foxley) they had going for fear of someone competent getting in power, they judged him staying alive as the best alternative for them.

 

[Alex1guy]

Well they did cancel the planned assassination operation for 1944 (Operation Foxley) they had going for fear of someone competent getting in power, they judged him staying alive as the best alternative for them.

Yeah I just had a look at Operation Foxley and it brought up an interesting point. If the Allies did accidentally kill Hitler, would that give birth to some sort of "stabbed in the back" esque myth where some in Germany have the attitude that "would have won if Hitler hadn't died"? Could this mentality actually develop? How would this affect the rest of the war I wonder.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

Yeah I just had a look at Operation Foxley and it brought up an interesting point. If the Allies did accidentally kill Hitler, would that give birth to some sort of "stabbed in the back" esque myth where some in Germany have the attitude that "would have won if Hitler hadn't died"? Could this mentality actually develop? How would this affect the rest of the war I wonder.

I'm sure there were some that would have thought that, but going by what the general impression of the war by the populace, there was the impression they were already losing badly; only the fanatics believed in the 'wunderwaffe' at that point. Even Rommel, who was notoriously taken with Hitler's confident persona was no longer believing his shtick by that point; if Rommel survives due to butterflies, not least of which not being implicated in some way in the assassination plot, then perhaps him going around during the war and pushing for peace, as he was trying to convince Hitler to do by the end of June, might convince the majority of people due to his media fueled reputation.

 

[andys]

What if Hitler was killed in a strafing attack whilst visiting the Atlantic Wall, say in late '43? Somehow the Resistance get's wind of the visit and manages to pass the details on in time for an RAF strike to occur. Let's pour some petrol on the fire and say that Rommel is escorting Hitler and he is also killed.

The Western Allies aren't ready to invade yet, unless there is so much confusion and possibly infighting amongst the Germans that going early with whatever is to hand seems enough to tip the balance in favour of a German surrender.

 

[mattep74]

I doubt it would be a targeted assassination. More along the lines of a fighter pilot looking for a convenient target to empty his guns on and finding a convoy of trucks and staff vehicles.

The attack on Yamamoto in 1943 comes to mind

Also, if Hitler Went near the front the entourage would be big, he would have tanks and atleast a Company as body guards. His car would have all the signs of a high ranking nazi. If he moves by rail i guess la resistance would like a word

 

[Deleted member 1487]

What if Hitler was killed in a strafing attack whilst visiting the Atlantic Wall, say in late '43? Somehow the Resistance get's wind of the visit and manages to pass the details on in time for an RAF strike to occur. Let's pour some petrol on the fire and say that Rommel is escorting Hitler and he is also killed.

The Western Allies aren't ready to invade yet, unless there is so much confusion and possibly infighting amongst the Germans that going early with whatever is to hand seems enough to tip the balance in favour of a German surrender.

I'm going to have to ask you to start a new thread about that then, as that would derail the subject of this one. It's a scenario worth looking into, but the discussion of that would be fairly different than the subject of this one.

 

[lionhead]

May i remind everyone that this will happen a month before the July 20 plot? The German resistance is definitely making a move if Hitler dies.

 

[pattersonautobody]

I think it is likely Goering assumes power pretty easily. I see Speer being influential, but not vying for the reins of power. Himmler gets arrested and executed. Goering becomes pretty much a puppet of the military at that point. Military is stupid and does not make peace until the end of the year, where they probably give an unconditional surrender. It's before Yalta, so Germany gets slightly better terms (i.e. Russia probably cannot pull shenanigans in Poland and stuff as the hand-over is the result of a peace.) German culture today is a little less self-loathing, a little more confident, a little less pro-West...sort of like a Poland OTL. In the western sphere but not viewing themselves as an extension of such.

 

[pjmidd]

May i remind everyone that this will happen a month before the July 20 plot? The German resistance is definitely making a move if Hitler dies.

That's dubious, people are just not in place and ready. Chances of them being able to do something meaningful, given their efforts OTL, are incredibly slim. There is also the problem that the leaders are in La La Land on what the Allied reaction will be. In Allied eyes they are as bad as Hitler ( none of them saw what happened in the East to the civilian population as anything to be sorry for, for instance ). The Allies will still laugh at the terms that are suggested and demand unconditional surrender. At this time Prussian's/German's/Nazi's were seen as the same thing ( many believed Hitler was the German military's front man ).

Germany probably collapses quicker due to disruption / loss of morale with Stalin redoubling the Red Armies attack to get as much territory as possible fearing the German's might get a separate peace( his trust of the western allies was about nil, paranoia was his middle name ) whilst the western allies will be casualty adverse seeing the end of the war in sight.