Bit of wishful thinking there, contrary to the PR, the Heer was up to its neck in the evil in the East. Post War, with the need to rehabilitate the German military for the Cold War, a lot got whitewashed. Many in the Heer thought the Jews/Slav's needed exterminating and the work camps, that killed probably as many as the Death camps, are vital for the War effort They certainly are not going to start feeding untermensch or giving them medical treatment so the deaths will continue in great numbers anyway.Honestly I think the important part would be the shake up, I can’t imagine that the army would allow Himmler to gain the same power as Hitler even if they accepted him as the next head of state, and Goering would pretty much just be a figure head, while a junta ran things behind the scene. The Holocaust would likely not be stopped, but I could see it being scaled down with a new regime re-ordering all aspects of the German government. Likely the people in the death camps already would be killed, but I could also see them stop using resources to send new people to the camps, instead I could see real labour camps being set up instead. I also expect that the evidence would be destroyed.
Bit of wishful thinking there, contrary to the PR, the Heer was up to its neck in the evil in the East. Post War, with the need to rehabilitate the German military for the Cold War, a lot got whitewashed. Many in the Heer thought the Jews/Slav's needed exterminating and the work camps, that killed probably as many as the Death camps, are vital for the War effort They certainly are not going to start feeding untermensch or giving them medical treatment so the deaths will continue in great numbers anyway.
I know what you want to happen but the Work camps , slave labor, no rations for non working untermensch don't change. They can't, lack of resources and affect on war production. These "rational" leaders are still, in the main, Nazi supporters and violently anti-Semite/anti-Slav. They are not going to let people out of the ghettos or give them more food/fuel. They also, which you miss, still think they can get a draw, delusional I know, but they will not be thinking in terms of defeat yet. Losing Hitler does not suddenly make all the Nazi's, which are a very large group, not the tiny group of Cold War PR, change their spots. Not sending people to camps will mean in the main they are just worked to death or starved in place. OK deaths will be down but not by a lot. When people are losing they take it out on scapegoats, they don't act rationally. See Japan in the pacific during this period.Sigh, the Holocaust was a waste of resources, which could have been spend better elsewhere, it was also a problem for the leaders of the new regime on a personally level, when they would lose the war. In such cases the rational thing to do would be to clean up and remove the evidence. That’s not falling for the clean wehrmacht, that’s understanding basic human behavior.
I think what's being suggested is that, if the military takes over, sending people to the camps will take a much lower priority than it had under Hitler. The military would much rather use scarce resources to support the war effort over exterminating Jews and Slavs. Their thinking would be that there would be plenty of time after the war to get around to that.I know what you want to happen but the Work camps , slave labor, no rations for non working untermensch don't change. They can't, lack of resources and affect on war production. These "rational" leaders are still, in the main, Nazi supporters and violently anti-Semite/anti-Slav. They are not going to let people out of the ghettos or give them more food/fuel. They also, which you miss, still think they can get a draw, delusional I know, but they will not be thinking in terms of defeat yet. Losing Hitler does not suddenly make all the Nazi's, which are a very large group, not the tiny group of Cold War PR, change their spots. Not sending people to camps will mean in the main they are just worked to death or starved in place. OK deaths will be down but not by a lot. When people are losing they take it out on scapegoats, they don't act rationally. See Japan in the pacific during this period.
What if the British do get word via Enigma, and send in an SAS trained team (like the Heydrich hit), dressed in German army uniforms/equipment? Make the operation look like a Heer plot, and let chaos reign!
Ric350
The prep work for that would be pretty heavy, hard to try and pull that off on the fly. Besides it is less than likely that they'd want to even try that due to fears that someone more competent might take over and even try and make a peace offer that would be hard to refuse.What if the British do get word via Enigma, and send in an SAS trained team (like the Heydrich hit), dressed in German army uniforms/equipment? Make the operation look like a Heer plot, and let chaos reign!
Ric350
« Wolfsschlucht 2 » (Wolf’s Ravine), W2 for short, has been built by the Todt Organization between 1942 and 1944. 22,000 workers were employed to build 450 bunkers, among them the one dedicated to Hitler himself. It was also the most important German communication centre of WWII with a 108m (325ft) long building sheltering 600 phone lines. Within a few minutes, Hitler could communicate with his armies anywhere in the world.
Hitler only came once, that was for the June 17, 1944 conference attended by Rommel and Von Rundstedt among many others. It was a turning point in history. Held shortly after the allied landing in Normandy, Rommel and Von Rundstedt tried desperately but in vain to convince Hitler that this was “The” landing, that there will be no other, and that subsequently it was of utmost importance to move the 15th Army from the North to Normandy.
Rommel was pushing for a retreat out of the range of the naval guns and to reorganize, but likely once they start pulling back they won't have the breathing room to reorganize without pulling back to the Seine and then starting a phased withdrawal to the German border, especially after the collapse of the front in Southern France.what sort of retrenchment would they try to make? (and what might be successfully carried out?)
for instance it was already suggested no Falaise Pocket, but a retreat across the Seine? any new leadership would have to think Romania is looking switch sides or exit quickly? and would want to position themselves to hold the oilfields or at least the Carpathian Mtns.?
Without Hitler around if the military takes over they'd probably stop it entirely because the plotters organizing against Hitler did, for all their faults, found the Holocaust completely abhorrent and was a substantial (though not primary) driver of their efforts against the Nazis:I think what's being suggested is that, if the military takes over, sending people to the camps will take a much lower priority than it had under Hitler. The military would much rather use scarce resources to support the war effort over exterminating Jews and Slavs. Their thinking would be that there would be plenty of time after the war to get around to that.
While the main goal of the plotters was to remove Hitler from power, they did so for various reasons. The majority of the group behind the 20 July plot were conservative nationalists—idealists, but not necessarily of a democratic stripe.[12][13] Martin Borschat portrays their motivations to a matter of aristocratic resentment, writing that the plot was mainly carried out by conservative elites who were initially integrated by the Nazi government but during the war lost their influence and were concerned about regaining it.[14] Even so, the persons involved explained their opposition to Hitler as a matter of principled opposition to Nazi policies and actions. Tresckow was appalled at SS murders of Russian prisoners.[15] Likewise, Stauffenberg had already decided that Hitler must be removed after learning of SS murders of prisoners of war and of Jews.[16] Goerdler, who was to have been Chancellor of the government installed after the coup, had publicly opposed anti-Jewish policies from the first.[17] And long after hopes of any negotiated peace had faded, Tresckow stated: "The assassination must be attempted, coûte que coûte [whatever the cost]. [Then,] even if it fails, we must take action in Berlin. . . . [W]hat matters now is that the German resistance movement must take the plunge before the eyes of the world and of history. Compared to that, nothing else matters."[18]
That's dubious, people are just not in place and ready. Chances of them being able to do something meaningful, given their efforts OTL, are incredibly slim. There is also the problem that the leaders are in La La Land on what the Allied reaction will be. In Allied eyes they are as bad as Hitler ( none of them saw what happened in the East to the civilian population as anything to be sorry for, for instance ). The Allies will still laugh at the terms that are suggested and demand unconditional surrender. At this time Prussian's/German's/Nazi's were seen as the same thing ( many believed Hitler was the German military's front man ).
Germany probably collapses quicker due to disruption / loss of morale with Stalin redoubling the Red Armies attack to get as much territory as possible fearing the German's might get a separate peace( his trust of the western allies was about nil, paranoia was his middle name ) whilst the western allies will be casualty adverse seeing the end of the war in sight.
the resulting chaos involving a dead Hitler might allow them to trigger Valkyrie, which was adjusted by the resistance to prevent a takeover from the SS. Goebbels, Goring and Himmler will be arrested and/or hopefully assassinated. That way the coup is underway.
There is the key difference in that Hitler would be dead, which IOTL scuppered the coup attempt in Berlin, as the officers that still felt bound to their loyalty oath and that enough junior level officers and soldiers still supported Hitler over a putschists that it would be impossible to pull off once Hitler announced he was still alive and people were trying to depose him, abandoned the plot/didn't side with them once it happened. There were plenty of people who wouldn't want the SS and Himmler or Goering in charge if Hitler died of non-coup related causes, so an organized army faction would be their default loyalty in the event of unclear succession.If the plotters couldn't do that when they actually went ahead with their operation there is no way they're gonna be able to do it on the fly
If the plotters couldn't do that when they actually went ahead with their operation there is no way they're gonna be able to do it on the fly
But that's expecting. Sane leadership to realize this..Sigh, the Holocaust was a waste of resources, which could have been spend better elsewhere, it was also a problem for the leaders of the new regime on a personally level, when they would lose the war. In such cases the rational thing to do would be to clean up and remove the evidence. That’s not falling for the clean wehrmacht, that’s understanding basic human behavior.
if you know anything about the July 20 plot then you'd know it failed because it was based on the pretext that Hitler was dead. Next to that the head of the reserve army who was the only one to be able to activate Valkyrie, Fromm, dropped his support for the cause after the failed attempt on July 15th, which didn't happen yet. If people like him hear Hitler is truly dead and the plotters contact him he might just support it fully and the ball starts rolling. and a seriosu ball it is.
I also know the July 20 plot failed because it was a poorly planned shitshow led by delusional Generals who thought they could somehow negotiate with the allies which would have had little chance of success even if Hitler was dead and it's successful execution and seizing control of all of Germany hinged on everything going right. I highly highly doubt the plotters would be able to successfully arrest Goering and Himmler given how they'll be very flatfooted by Hitlers death which means a German civil war and in all honesty it's a war I do not see the plotters winning
The issue with the Engima thing is that it's a military code, not a high level strategic one, so likely there would be very little showing up on Engima, because Hitler's MO was surprise and with little warning to make sure that his enemies couldn't plan ahead to assassinate him. The Lorenz machine would probably have news about it...but then Hitler was in France in June 1944 and the Allies didn't try and bomb his bunker, which was surprisingly close to the front: