He 112 adopted by Luftwaffe?
- Thread starter tomo pauk
- Start date
I can answer why I mentioned it.
OTL the 109 was a short ranged fighter, so the 110 was used as a long range escort. If the 112 has sufficiently better range, it can fulfil the long range escort role most of the time.
Long range escort was not the main job of the 110, which is why I was asking if the 112 could cover the heavy fighter role as well. If so, the 110 might never get designed or accepted.
While I agree that the 187 would have been a better replacement for the 110, I think that if you manage to get it adopted you are unlikely to get any of the 109 competitors produced as well, because you would then have 3 fighters in production right from the beginning and that might be a bit much for the Luftwaffe.
The sovjets mostly went with the wide variety of different fighters at once because they were increadibly desperate and needed as many new aircraft as possible right now. The Luftwaffe has a bit more time and can afford to only go with what they think is the best design.
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Fair point. Scrap the 109 then? Between the 112 and 187, it's kind of in a Master of None situation.
Might still be cheap enough to produce its worth keeping in production if there’s more engines than fw 187/he 112 airframes
I think there are a few good reasons why the 109 was chosen over the 112 and OTL has proven pretty conclusively that the Bf 109 was a very good and very adaptable airframe. It was also very well suited for large scale industrial production, which is a point we should not overlook in this discussion. The He 112 has a few advantages but im still not convinced that it would prove as usefull and longlived ast the 109.
Between the 109, 110, 112 and 187 it would be likely best to go with only two: Either 109/112 or 109/187.
Agree the Bf109 proved itself to be an excellent airframe, and it is difficult to know if the He112 would have the same flexibility/longevity.
wrt the last point, I think the OP's position was 109/112 combination. I think the downside is you get two (very) similar aircraft - not necessarily a dealbreaker but perhaps sub-optimal. The 109/187 combination gives you two different options, and a better combination. In my view, if Heinkel are going to produce a single-engine fighter, the He100 is a much better option to come in a few years later to replace the Bf109, but that is off topic (Sorry).
marathag
Banned
or....
Not perfect of course, but similar could have been done in place of the 110 in 1939/
Later if a two seat night fighter is needed, open up the other cockpit and add an F-82G radar pod in the center
The problem of replacing the Bf 110 with the He 112 is that the 110 wasn't only a long range escort fighter.
Heavy fighter, fighter-bomber, night-fighter, frontline bomber, attack aircraft, recce aircraft, naval bomber, tank destroyer, long range escort... those roles the Bf 110 was envisioned with would not be able to be fulfilled by the He 112, even if the 112 would have better performance in a few specialized roles than the 110.
Heavy fighter, fighter-bomber, night-fighter, frontline bomber, attack aircraft, recce aircraft, naval bomber, tank destroyer, long range escort... those roles the Bf 110 was envisioned with would not be able to be fulfilled by the He 112, even if the 112 would have better performance in a few specialized roles than the 110.
Bf 110 was not fulfilling all of these roles just by itself.
1-engined fighter will do the bomber killing if outfitted with cannons, meaning any German 1-engined fighter will do it. Fighter-bomber, attack A/C - use the bing-wing He 112 for that, and/or the Fw 190 when available as per OTL. Tank destroyer - just deployed in small numbers, so no great loss. LR escort - again good until the Allies dispute that, and it was available just in small numbers, making an 1-engined A/C better choice. LR recce - adopt the Do 17 R1 or R2 (sleek fuselage + DB 601). Night fighter - Ju 88, Do 17/215.
I am aware but the RLM would certainly keep the 110 as they believe it to be great at everything while the He 112 would not fulfill their requirements to their liking, that is until they realize the Bf 110 is good at everything master of none.
Though I want to point some things out.
The Bf 110's armament as a bomber hunter is superior with 2 x 30 mm MK 108 and 2/4 x 20 mm MG 151 carrying more ammo per gun than any German single seat fighter could carry in total.
I sincerely doubt that the He 112 could pack a heavier armament than the FW 190/Ta 152 which had a much powerful engine than the DB 601.
The bomb load of the 110 is undoubtedly superior to anything the He 112 could carry (as high as 1.8 t) and I again doubt with a weaker engine and older airframe that the 112 could carry a heavier payload than the FW 190 attack version (1000 kg)
My thinking as well, the landing gear could be refigured for better ground handling but other than that she'd be good to go.
Per OTL they were certainly believed that Bf 110 is great in everything, hence why they procured it.
Fw 190A carried 2x MK 108 and 2x MG 151/20 once the MK 108 was available and depending on the version, on just one engine and with 70 km/h speed advantage, as well as with RoC advantage. Bf 110 in day-fighter role carried max of 4 cannons IIRC.
He 112 does not need to pack a heavier weapon load than the Fw 190 IMO.
Fw 190 maxed out at 1800 kg.
Bf 110 was also a pre-war airframe, taking off 1st in May 1936. We'd certainly want the He 112 to be powered with DB 601A as a starting engine in this scenario, and work upwards from there.
The early day fighter version carried 4 x MG 17 and 2 x Mg FF/M later on replacing the FF/Ms with Mk 151/20s. The 30 mm cannons really only come into play in 43, so long after the battles of norway and britain are over and other potential cannon carrier aircraft are available. The only versions of the 110 that carried a heavier armament were a handfull of dedicated tankhunters ( I think less than 120 of those were built) and late model nightfighters, some of which either carried additional 20 mm cannons under the fuselage or replaced some (or all) of the Mg 17s with either additional 20 or 30 mm cannons.
So there are basically no day-fighter versions of the 110 that carried a truly heavy cannon armament and the 112 already proved IOTL that it could carry at the very least
2 20mm cannons and 2 MGs.
I see. My bad about the 110 then, I mixed up some stuff about the different models and their introduction date.
So, perhaps the He 112 would be more important than what I initially thought in regards to the 110, but I still believe the 110 will be kept into production, though turned into more specialized variants (night fighter, torpedo bomber, ground attacker)
So, perhaps the He 112 would be more important than what I initially thought in regards to the 110, but I still believe the 110 will be kept into production, though turned into more specialized variants (night fighter, torpedo bomber, ground attacker)
I think a lot depends on when the 112 is developed. If the 110 is available first then the 112 should displace it where as good or better (because 1 engine and smaller crew uses less resources). Then the 110 competes against other twins as night fighter, recon, heavy ground attack etc.
If the 112 is available first, it's likely the Do17 and Ju88 will fulfil the night fighter, recon and possibly ground attack roles, while the 112 fills in for the OTL 110 as best it can.
Comparison between the 112 V1 (1st prototype) and the 112B. Note the far smaller wing on the 112B.
(I can't claim for 100% accuracy of the V1 drawing, but it serves the purpose).
The slightly reduced wing size on some further prototypes can be seen here in comparison with the V1:
There is several roles where the bigger wing can be useful (I'd avoid the really big wing of the V1 of 12.5m span, though, and rather go with the 11.5m span).
As a fighter-bomber it should be able to carry greater weight of ordnance, easier to install greater guns' firepower, a big engine makes sense (BMW 801, perhaps even the DB 603 provided the fuselage is reinforced), could also carry more fuel in the wing.
(I can't claim for 100% accuracy of the V1 drawing, but it serves the purpose).
The slightly reduced wing size on some further prototypes can be seen here in comparison with the V1:
There is several roles where the bigger wing can be useful (I'd avoid the really big wing of the V1 of 12.5m span, though, and rather go with the 11.5m span).
As a fighter-bomber it should be able to carry greater weight of ordnance, easier to install greater guns' firepower, a big engine makes sense (BMW 801, perhaps even the DB 603 provided the fuselage is reinforced), could also carry more fuel in the wing.