He 112 adopted by Luftwaffe?

[tomo pauk]

... together with Bf 109, that is. Perhaps the Ju 88 is an actual Schnellbomber, so the need for LR escorts is not longer there, eaning the Bf 110 gets cancelled by late 1937. LW is willing to have another iron in the fire in the fighter role aside the Bf 109 by early 1938.
He 112 was flown in many variations, with wings being of 12.5m, 11.5m and, for the 112B, 9.1m span, obviously the wing areas differing widely. Wing was not that a thick design, even on the 112B (good for lift, bad for streamlining); fuselage was also redesigned slightly before 1939. We will not consider the open-topped early 112s for ww2
Engines were changed, too, both small and big V12s (experiment-only), as well with a radial in the Hungarian spin-off.
Obviously, with Bf 110 out of picture, the He 112 can finally be powered with a proper engine for 1939 and on.

 

[Nell_Lucifer]

You would probably need a redesign to simplify the number of parts used and make it more maintenance friendly than OTL.

Wasn't the He 112 more maneuverable than the 109?

 

[tomo pauk]

Wasn't the He 112 more maneuverable than the 109?

That might depend on the versions we compare. If we compare the 'big-wing' 112, like the A series, these should be better in turning maneuver then the Bf 109s of the same era.
If the big wing is retained, such the He 112 should be a better fighter-bomber than the Bf 109 due to the lower wing loading. Past 1940, trim down the Ju 87 production, and have the He 112 to be a CAS aircraft? These He 112 might also be good platforms for the BMW 801, too.
Small-wing 112s can go with Jumo 211 and/or HS 12Y, for even a lower dependence on the DB 601?

 

[Garrison]

... together with Bf 109, that is. Perhaps the Ju 88 is an actual Schnellbomber, so the need for LR escorts is not longer there, eaning the Bf 110 gets cancelled by late 1937. LW is willing to have another iron in the fire in the fighter role aside the Bf 109 by early 1938.
He 112 was flown in many variations, with wings being of 12.5m, 11.5m and, for the 112B, 9.1m span, obviously the wing areas differing widely. Wing was not that a thick design, even on the 112B (good for lift, bad for streamlining); fuselage was also redesigned slightly before 1939. We will not consider the open-topped early 112s for ww2
Engines were changed, too, both small and big V12s (experiment-only), as well with a radial in the Hungarian spin-off.
Obviously, with Bf 110 out of picture, the He 112 can finally be powered with a proper engine for 1939 and on.

There is no way for the Ju-88 to be a true schnellbomber so long as it is expected to act as a tactical bomber and carry out CAS. Basically the Mosquito was only able to do that for certain applications and invariably operating formations of bombers without escort is an invitation to disaster.

 

[tomo pauk]

There is no way for the Ju-88 to be a true schnellbomber so long as it is expected to act as a tactical bomber and carry out CAS.

Ju 88 was expected to be a long-range bomber. That meant carrying thousands of liters of fuel already by A-1 version.
CAS and tactical bombing was what it was also capable, even if the Hs 123 and Ju 87 were the weapons of choice by LW there before the war started.

But anyway, the thread is about the He 112 from 1938 on, people can think of any PODs they see fit.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Did the He112 have potential to carry heavy cannon armament to act as a bomber destroyer (and in principle as a fighter destroyer)? In this role, agility is not critical and it only has to be nearly as good as the OTL 110 to make the ITTL 110 redundant and never developed [1]. This would free up engine manufacturing capacity - hopefully for use in the He112.

As a related question, what's the development potential of the He112 compared with the 109?

[1] which also should get rid of the poor 210

 

[tomo pauk]

Did the He112 have potential to carry heavy cannon armament to act as a bomber destroyer (and in principle as a fighter destroyer)? In this role, agility is not critical and it only has to be nearly as good as the OTL 110 to make the ITTL 110 redundant and never developed [1]. This would free up engine manufacturing capacity - hopefully for use in the He112.

I'm 100% for the DB-601 powered He 112 being produced instead of the Bf 110 (a tad more fuel will need to be carried now with a more powerful engine). As for heavy cannon armament - the big-wing He 112 would've been much better platform for that than the small-wing He 112B, or the Bf 109.

As a related question, what's the development potential of the He112 compared with the 109?

It might be a better long-range fighter, since it started with more fuel than the Jumo-powered Bf 109s. Also a better fighter-bomber, again especially if the big-wing version is adopted for greater load-carrying capacity. Adopted for carrying a torpedo maybe, not unlike the G.55S., or carrying the Motobomba? Perhaps it replaces Ju 87 in CAS role, or/and as a tank-buster with two 30mm cannons?
The not-flimsy layout of the U/C should be worth something IMO.

[1] which also should get rid of the poor 210

Another boon for the LW.

 

[Leander]

I think a very important factor for the 112s prospects in Luftwaffe service would be the adaptability of the airframe. The 109 proved to have left a lot of room for development left (even if the very late war models were really stretching it) and im not sure how the 112 would fare on that front. The basic construction seems resonably modern (all metall, stressed skin, flush riveting) and they already proved during development that the wings could be replaced further on if necessary.

Overall I think its nearly always a good idea too replace the Bf 110 with a different design, especially early war when it was needed as a day fighter, a role were it suffered pretty badly in. You might later on run into some problems when nightfighters are required, but the various do 17 variants and developments seem capable enough.
From what I can gather the He 112 has a longer range than the 109 but I dont think its inherently sufficent for use in a long range escort role. I unfortunately dont know enough about the plane to speculate if that could be rectified by expanding internal fuel storage or if the germans would be more willing to develop drop tanks in this case, because otherwise the LW would totally lack a long range fighter in the absence of the Bf 110.

Carrying capacity for the 112 also seems to be higher than for the 109 which might indeed make more fully developed versions pretty capable fighter bombers as others have speculated, also considering that it already started out with a heavier cannon armament than the other trial entries.

Adopting and commiting to producing a second fighter or fighter bomber this early might also have some pretty large effects on overall Luftwaffe development. Do you think this might hinder or prevent the adoptionf of the Fw 190 seeing as the LW would already have to fighters in use by that time?

 

[tomo pauk]

Overall I think its nearly always a good idea too replace the Bf 110 with a different design, especially early war when it was needed as a day fighter, a role were it suffered pretty badly in. You might later on run into some problems when nightfighters are required, but the various do 17 variants and developments seem capable enough.

Going with an 1-engined type (be it a Bf 109, He 112 or 100) instead of the 110 offers a possibility of making 2 of these per each 1 Bf 110 not manufactured. For a war that was ruthless to both men and machines, with 'day' fighters production required 1st in hundereds and then in thousands, this adds up very quickly.
Ju 88 and Do 17/215 should cover the needs for night fighters for 1941/42 and on, plus a dedicated night fighter (something of the layout of He 219 or Ta 152 or Mosquito, preferably sized between Ta 154 and He 219 IMO so there is no need for unicorn engines to power it).

From what I can gather the He 112 has a longer range than the 109 but I dont think its inherently sufficent for use in a long range escort role. I unfortunately dont know enough about the plane to speculate if that could be rectified by expanding internal fuel storage or if the germans would be more willing to develop drop tanks in this case, because otherwise the LW would totally lack a long range fighter in the absence of the Bf 110.

He 112A started with two 110 L wing tanks. The 112B gained also the fuselage tank of 115 L that was located under the pilot's seat, and the wing tanks were reduced to 101 L each (due to self-sealing - my speculation). With the heavier and thirstier Db 601A in the nose, the fuel tank needs to grow, perhaps now to 300-350L, internal fuel now totaling to 500-550L. The 109E carried 400, the 110C/D/E carried ~ 620 per engine.
(He 112B had no internal bomb bay behind the pilot like the 112A had)
The drop tank is always an option, perhaps now more desirable from the get go since the long-range offensive fighter is not present due to no Bf 110.

Adopting and commiting to producing a second fighter or fighter bomber this early might also have some pretty large effects on overall Luftwaffe development. Do you think this might hinder or prevent the adoptionf of the Fw 190 seeing as the LW would already have to fighters in use by that time?

Fw 190 represented a way for Germany to have yet another source of powerful engines playing the role. BMW was promising 1500 HP for the 139, by time DB 601A was under 1200 HP (granted, a direct comparison of weight and drag between V12 and radials is very tricky - even the best radials can't compare well with well-executed V12s wrt. drag and weight).
Note that LW was also with two fighter types in 1939 per OTL.

 

[Horton229]

My question (hope this is not a derail) is whether there is still a need for a 2-engine fighter (aircraft) of this sort of size.

Going with an 1-engined type (be it a Bf 109, He 112 or 100) instead of the 110 offers a possibility of making 2 of these per each 1 Bf 110 not manufactured. For a war that was ruthless to both men and machines, with 'day' fighters production required 1st in hundereds and then in thousands, this adds up very quickly.

It does and it also saves other materials as the Bf110 is a significantly larger airframe.
It does mean you need two proper pilots. I know the Bf110 had a crew of three, but how many of those were fully qualified pilots vs. gunners/navigator etc.

Fw 190 represented a way for Germany to have yet another source of powerful engines playing the role. BMW was promising 1500 HP for the 139, by time DB 601A was under 1200 HP (granted, a direct comparison of weight and drag between V12 and radials is very tricky - even the best radials can't compare well with well-executed V12s wrt. drag and weight).
Note that LW was also with two fighter types in 1939 per OTL.

Is this two 1-engine fighters in 1939? Or are you including the Bf110?

 

[tomo pauk]

My question (hope this is not a derail) is whether there is still a need for a 2-engine fighter (aircraft) of this sort of size.

What size do you have in mind?

It does mean you need two proper pilots. I know the Bf110 had a crew of three, but how many of those were fully qualified pilots vs. gunners/navigator etc.

Yes, it will need more proper pilots.

Is this two 1-engine fighters in 1939? Or are you including the Bf110?

I'm including the Bf 110.

 

[Leander]

My question (hope this is not a derail) is whether there is still a need for a 2-engine fighter (aircraft) of this sort of size.

The Bf 110 was initially developed mostly as a long range escort fighter and was essentially pretty much incapable of fulfilling that role from the beginning of the battle of britain. It was somewhat adequate against very early Hurricanes and the mishmash of obsolecent designs that made up the bulk of polish and french airforces, but nothing much else. Based on this I would argue there is absolutely no need for the Luftwaffe to develop and field such a plane in this role (as the nightfighter role can be carried out by other types) if they manage to get a single engine design of sufficent range into service.

Based on the calculations of possible internal fuel loads @tomo pauk did above the He 112 seems to be suited for this role, which would alleviate the need for the Bf 110 basically completly. If the germans had manged to develop external fuel tanks early enough one could even argue that the Bf 109 could have fulfilled both escort and interception duties well enough for the germans to get by with only a single fighter design. In that case a second design only becomes relevant when fighter bombers are needed (a role for which the 109 is not all that well suited) or you need other sources of engines as pointed out earlier.

Note that LW was also with two fighter types in 1939 per OTL.

The 109 and 110 are much more dissimiliar to each other than the 109 and 112 though. The 190 would then essentially be developed as a third aircraft of exactly the same class. The engine argument is still very good though.

 

[Horton229]

What size do you have in mind?

Bf110 size - to fulfil the envisioned role of that aircraft (alluded to in @Leander 's post above). Of course, a single engine long range (escort) fighter is much more valuable. If the He112 can be turned into this, all well and good.

The 109 and 110 are much more dissimiliar to each other than the 109 and 112 though. The 190 would then essentially be developed as a third aircraft of exactly the same class. The engine argument is still very good though.

This was meant to be my point above when I mentioned a need for a twin-engine, but I must have deleted the line re: two aircraft with largely the same role. Given the He112 and Bf109 were part of the same competition, there is no incremental gain (which might be the case if say the He100 were adopted). But again, conscious of not derailing.

 

[tomo pauk]

This was meant to be my point above when I mentioned a need for a twin-engine, but I must have deleted the line re: two aircraft with largely the same role. Given the He112 and Bf109 were part of the same competition, there is no incremental gain (which might be the case if say the He100 were adopted). But again, conscious of not derailing.

Thank you
RLM might've looked at, perhaps, RAF, and note two similar designs are adopted by them. Sorta covering their bases in case the preferred design has some flaw that can't be discovered in short order. Or the 2nd best design having more of a stretch when it comes to major engine upgrade.
Not that far-fetched - Soviets were replacing the biplane and monoplane Polikarpov's fighters' designs with 3 monoplane types going in series production.

 

[Driftless]

One early campaign where the Bf-110s longer range came in very useful was during the invasion of Norway. I believe the 109 was at the limit of its operational range, just to get to the southernmost tip of Norway. The 110 was able to provide important air cover for the attack of the fallschirmjagers on the airports near Oslo and Stavanger. The Norwegians weren't prepared for the attack, and in any case, their only real fighter (ready for war anyway) was the Gladiator, and those were few in number

Would the He.112 be able fill that assault support role as well/better than the 110?

 

[tomo pauk]

Would the He.112 be able fill that assault support role as well/better than the 110?

It will, provided that it carries half of what Bf 110 carried (~1250L /two_engines=625). That will probably mean carrying a drop tank.

 

[Post]

It will, provided that it carries half of what Bf 110 carried (~1250L /two_engines=625). That will probably mean carrying a drop tank.

Why would they fit the He-112 with a droptank when they didn't fit it on the Me-109.

 

[tomo pauk]

Why would they fit the He-112 with a droptank when they didn't fit it on the Me-109.

In order to cover Southern Norway, now that Bf 110 is not around.

 

[CaptainCalvert]

Apart from Norway, the main driver for a long range fighter before 1941 was the Battle of Britain, where a bit more range would have been useful. There were I think a few raids on Northern England or Scotland where the 110 was used as an escort rather than as a bomber, andthe 112 might lack range there (possibly not with a drop tank). So the 112 range may well have been good enough from the start for almost everything the 110 did OTL.
I suppose the question then becomes whether the escorts are simply omitted for Norway (which with hindsight probably makes no difference) and for northern Britain (which might well lead to a turkey shoot) or do they knock out a drop tank or other extra fuel trick and field downgraded fighters (which again probably makes no difference in Norway but might or might not help in northern Britain).
Incidentally, was the OTL late introduction of droptanks because they hadn't seen the need for them or because of technical issues with the 109 or the tanks?

 

[Migrant_Coconut]

Greenlight the Fw 187 instead of the 110? Should be enough for anything outside of the 112’s range.