Have the Sunbeam Alpine/Tiger Series be as successful as MG and Triumph roadsters

DSC5781-820x547.jpg

Both MG and Triumph were very successful in the roadster market especially in the USA but the Sunbeam division of Rootes UK seemed to be less so with sales just under 80,000 with MG & Triumph selling 800,000 plus units since 1950 respectively.

So have the Sunbeam Alpine/Tiger Series be as successful as it's MG and Triumph rivals especially in the US.

Would selling the V8 powered Tiger much earlier help?

Much obliged!
 
Maybe have Shelby American do the Tiger instead of Jensen, maybe Shelby give the Tiger a different shine than Jensen did and it gives more people a chance to own a Shelby.
 
Jaguar buys Daimler sooner and sells the toolings of the V8's to Rootes.
No Daimler sp250 or Majestic Major.
The small 2.5 l its used in the Sunbeam Tiger and the 4.5 l its used to power the Humber Imperial.
 
If William Lyons chooses to sell the tollings for the V8's to Rootes because what he really wants was the Daimler factory to expand its business, I can see Rootes putting the engines to good use.
Jaguar developed a 5 l V8 from the 4.5 l, so a 3 l developed from the 2.5 l seems doable and a good base for an American market strategy that could be very profitable.
Sunbeam Tiger V8, 2.5 and 3.0, cabriolet and coupe
1280px-1963_Sunbeam_Alpine_V8_4.3_Front.jpg

@1965-Sunbeam-Tiger-Mk-I-Coupe-by-Harrington-3-e1490610963367.jpg

Humber Hawk V8 3.0 l, saloon and estate
Humber_Hawk_Series_IV_front.jpg

1280px-1967_Humber_Hawk_Series_IVA_2.3_Front_(1).jpg

Humber Snipe V8 3.0 l
1280px-Sunbeam_Venezia_at_Schaffen-Diest_(2017)_02.jpg

Ogle presents a GT prototype, Rootes buys the rights to the design and the Sunbeam Scimitar is produced in coupe, cabriolet and shooting break form , using the 4.5 l V8.
Reliant_Scimitar_GT_2.6_SE4_(1966)_-_15542814451.jpg

293 Reliant Scimitar SE4B Convertible (1966-70).jpeg

1975_RELIANT_SCIMITAR_GTE_AUTO,licence_00-YD-51,_pic1.JPG

Humber Imperial V8 5.0 l, saloon and estate
1280px-Humber_Super_Snipe_(1967)_(28337918961).jpg

1280px-Humber_Super_Snipe_estate_first_registered_May_1965_2965cc.jpeg

It's possible that a range of vehicles using two brands (Humber and Sunbeam) , V8 engines and Borg Warner automatic transmissions, could be successful in the US and provide Rootes with a steady income to balance the finances of the group and maybe prevent the demands of the british government that forced Rootes to produce the Imp in Scotland.
 
Last edited:
If William Lyons chooses to sell the tollings for the V8's to Rootes because what he really wants was the Daimler factory to expand its business, I can see Rootes putting the engines to good use.
Jaguar developed a 5 l V8 from the 4.5 l, so a 3 l developed from the 2.5 l seems doable and a good base for an American market strategy that could be very profitable.
Sunbeam Tiger V8, 2.5 and 3.0, cabriolet and coupe
View attachment 697851
View attachment 697852
Humber Hawk V8 3.0 l, saloon and estate
View attachment 697856
View attachment 697857
Humber Imperial V8 5.0 l, saloon and estate
View attachment 697858
View attachment 697859
Its possible that Rootes could pick up an Ogle prototype and develop the Sunbeam Scimitar coupe and shooting break with the 4.5 V8 , made of steel by Jensen like the Tiger.
View attachment 697862
View attachment 697863
It's a possible that a range of vehicles using two brands (Humber and Sunbeam) , V8 engines and Borg Warner automatic transmissions, could be successful and provide Rootes with a steady income to balance the finances of the group and maybe prevent the demands of the british government that forced Rootes to produce the Imp in Scotland.

I'm liking the 'coupe' and the 'Ogle' prototypes 😍 😍 😍 😍 😍
 
I have thought of one interesting possibility:

Suppose the BMW/Rootes merger proposed in the early 1960s went through, and the merged company uses the then-current BMW V8 engine?

That would at least have avoided the troubles of the Sunbeam Tiger, which could fit a Ford but no Chrysler V8 engine and had to be discontinued after Chrystler took over Rootes. If that BMW V8 could have been adapted to an automatic transmission – which it never was before ceasing production in 1965 – it could have added about 15 percent more power to the big Humbers too.
 

Would selling the V8 powered Tiger much earlier help?
As with most Automotive things British, it gets vastly improved with an American V8.
but here we do something a little different
So rather than going with the Ford 260 V8, they go for the Aluminum 215 from Oldsmobile, that wasn't exactly like the Buick, built a bit beefier
So Rover still gets the Buick, but they would be following what Rootes had already done.

So the Tiger gets a four barrel 215 at 185HP, or even the turbo version if wanting to live on the bleeding edge.
with either engine, it's lighter and 20 more HP than the 260 had, up to 60 while the Turbo engine kept running.
When desired, it's not had to get it to 300 cubic inches when the HP wars really take off
 
That would at least have avoided the troubles of the Sunbeam Tiger, which could fit a Ford but no Chrysler V8 engine and had to be discontinued after Chrystler took over Rootes
Well, Chrysler could have used their OHV version of the old Ford Baby Flathead that they gained with SIMCA and being produced in Brazil in the '60s
1637812093964.jpeg

That was smaller than their LA 273

Make the Tiger a real 'World Car' that way

EDIT Engine in the Metal
october2010040-jpg.3141305
 
Last edited:
The Daimler 2.5 L V8 provides 140 HP so a 3.0 l can probably provide 175 HP and that's better than the BMW V8 that produced 120 HP in 2.5 L and 160 HP in 3.2 L.
The Daimler 4.5 L provides 220 HP so a 5.0 L is good for 275 HP and Jaguar prototypes reached 300 HP.
The BMW engine was all aluminum so it's lighter than the Daimler and that's important.
Rootes would benefit from a merger and I have read about several that were proposed.
Honestly, to me, the better scenario would be a merger with Borgward group and the same way that Triumph produced cars styled by Michelotti, Hillman and Sunbeam could have used the skill of Pietro Frua that designed several prototypes for Borgward that were later used by Glas cars.
1280px-Glas_1700_(1967),_Dutch_licence_registration_AL-90-04_pic1.jpeg

1280px-Glas_1700GT_(1967),_Dutch_licence_registration_AE-92-83_pic1.jpeg

1280px-1966_Glas_1300_GT_Cabriolet,_front_left_side,_Greenwich_2018.jpg

Maybe the Frua designs for the Maserati Quattroporte and Maserati Mexico become instead the next Humber Imperial saloon and coupe
Maserati_BW_2016-04-30_13-50-08.jpg

145.jpg
 
Last edited:
As with most Automotive things British, it gets vastly improved with an American V8.
but here we do something a little different
So rather than going with the Ford 260 V8, they go for the Aluminum 215 from Oldsmobile, that wasn't exactly like the Buick, built a bit beefier
So Rover still gets the Buick, but they would be following what Rootes had already done.

So the Tiger gets a four barrel 215 at 185HP, or even the turbo version if wanting to live on the bleeding edge.
with either engine, it's lighter and 20 more HP than the 260 had, up to 60 while the Turbo engine kept running.
When desired, it's not had to get it to 300 cubic inches when the HP wars really take off

Was the Old V8 as narrow as the Ford Windsor? The 221-260-289-302 had a very low deck height making it very narrow and therefore able to fit where the Chev and Chrysler small blocks couldn't. I don't think I've ever seen an Olds V8, is it wide like the Chev and Chrysler or narrow like the Ford Windsor, because if it's wide it won't fit the sunbeam without major (read expensive) surgery.
 
Was the Old V8 as narrow as the Ford Windsor? The 221-260-289-302 had a very low deck height making it very narrow and therefore able to fit where the Chev and Chrysler small blocks couldn't. I don't think I've ever seen an Olds V8, is it wide like the Chev and Chrysler or narrow like the Ford Windsor, because if it's wide it won't fit the sunbeam without major (read expensive) surgery.

V8 EngineWidthLengthHeightWeight
Buick/Olds 215262827320
SB Olds262827.5560
Ford Windsor272927.5460
Ford Flathead243026450
SB Chev26.52827575
Mopar LA29.52930550

Now there are some differences from manifold and accessory designs, so all these are approximate
 
V8 EngineWidthLengthHeightWeight
Buick/Olds 215262827320
SB Olds262827.5560
Ford Windsor272927.5460
Ford Flathead243026450
SB Chev26.52827575
Mopar LA29.52930550

Now there are some differences from manifold and accessory designs, so all these are approximate

The SB Chev is narrower than the Ford Windsor? That doesn't sound right, the Windsor is tiny, my brother had a 302 in an XB Falcon and it looked smaller than the 6 cylinder.
 
The SB Chev is narrower than the Ford Windsor? That doesn't sound right, the Windsor is tiny, my brother had a 302 in an XB Falcon and it looked smaller than the 6 cylinder.
as mentioned, the accessories and manifolds make a big difference for actual fitment
EDIT, the Fords are narrower at the bottom of the block,
1637879460034.png

SB Chevy
A Windsor long block, that's under 20" wide at the exhaust ports

Now the Ford Baby Flathead, 136cu.in
3-2-2-jpg.4512631
 
Last edited:
Maybe have Shelby American do the Tiger instead of Jensen, maybe Shelby give the Tiger a different shine than Jensen did and it gives more people a chance to own a Shelby.
Wouldn't that need Shelby himself not to have such close ties with Ford? Especially given the Cobra is roughly contemporaneous...

IDK of anybody at Chrysler doing what Shelby was, but IMO Chrysler (or Plymouth/Dodge, if you want to badge-engineer it) is the only really viable choice: GM's got Corvette, & isn't going to undermine it by tuning on an import. (Not unless you get management changes & an understanding the *Tiger, with input from Buick or Olds, is going after the T-bird & 300, & not the 'vette or 'stang.)

If I had my way, though, I'd turn Delorean loose on it...

V8 EngineWidthLengthHeightWeight
Buick/Olds 215262827320
SB Olds262827.5560
Ford Windsor272927.5460
Ford Flathead243026450
SB Chev26.52827575
Mopar LA29.52930550
The width numbers I've seen put the SBC at 22", same as the 302 Ford, & the flatty at 26"... I got the sense those were for the bare block, so headers would vary it.
Engine
Displacement
Alength
Blength
Cheight
Dheight
Ewidth
DIST
SUMP
STARTER
OIL
FILTER
WEIGHT
AMC
250/287/327​
x​
27.75​
24.00​
x​
24.12​
rear​
rear​
right​
left rear​
601​
AMC
304/360/401​
28.75​
29.25​
21.25​
29.50​
21.50​
front​
rear​
right​
right front​
540/600​
Buick/Olds
215​
x​
28.00​
x​
27.00​
26.00​
front​
rear​
x​
right front​
315​
Buick
350​
29.00​
30.50​
21.50​
28.50​
23.00​
front​
rear​
right​
right front​
450​
Buick
322/425​
x​
33.50​
x​
29.00​
28.00​
rear​
rear​
left​
right rear​
685​
Buick
400/455​
29.00​
30.00​
22.00​
30.00​
23.00​
front​
center​
right​
right front​
600/640​
Cadillac
331/390 60-62​
x​
x​
x​
x​
x​
rear​
rear​
left​
right rear​
699/720​
Cadillac
331/390 63-up​
x​
x​
x​
x​
x​
rear​
rear​
left​
left front​
699/720​
Cadillac
425/472/500​
30.00​
30.50​
28.50​
32.00​
28.50​
front​
rear​
right​
left front​
625​
Chevy
262/400 Short WP​
26.50​
27.00​
20.50​
27.00​
22.00​
rear​
rear​
right​
left rear​
575​
Chevy
262/400 Long WP​
27.88​
28.38​
20.50​
27.00​
22.00​
rear​
rear​
right​
left rear​
575​
Chevy
348/409​
x​
34.50​
x​
32.00​
28.50​
rear​
rear​
right​
left rear​
685​
Chevy
396/454 Short WP​
30.50​
30.50​
23.50​
33.00​
27.00​
rear​
rear​
right​
left rear​
685​
Chevy
396/454 Long WP​
32.00​
32.00​
23.50​
33.00​
27.00​
rear​
rear​
right​
left rear​
685​
Ford
221/302​
27.00​
29.00​
22.00​
27.00​
22.00​
front​
front​
right​
left front​
440/460​
Ford
332/428FE​
30.00​
32.00​
28.00​
32.00​
27.00​
front​
front​
right​
left front​
650​
Ford
427 SOHC​
32.00​
34.00​
30.00​
34.00​
32.00​
front​
front​
right​
left front​
680​
Ford
Flathead​
30.00​
30.00​
22.00​
x​
26.00​
front​
front​
left​
left rear​
569​
Mopar
273/360​
29.50​
29.50​
23.50​
31.00​
25.00​
rear​
front​
left​
right rear​
525/560​
Mopar
350/440​
29.00​
30.00​
24.00​
30.50​
29.50​
front​
center​
left​
left front​
620/670​
Mopar
331/392 Hemi​
32.00​
31.00​
24.00​
31.00​
29.00​
rear​
center​
left​
right rear​
729/745​
Mopar
Late Hemi​
32.00​
32.00​
24.00​
32.00​
29.00​
front​
center​
left​
left front​
765​
Olds
303/394​
x​
32.00​
x​
29.00​
30.00​
rear​
rear​
right​
right rear​
700​
Olds
350​
28.25​
28.25​
20.25​
27.50​
26.00​
rear​
rear​
left​
right rear​
560​
Olds
455​
29.00​
31.00​
24.00​
31.00​
26.50​
rear​
rear​
left​
right rear​
605​
Pontiac
350/400​
28.25​
29.00​
20.00​
31.00​
27.00​
rear​
rear​
left​
right rear​
650​
Pontiac
455​
29.50​
32.00​
27.00​
33.00​
27.00​
rear​
rear​
left​
right rear​
650​

A - Length from rear of intake manifold to water pump pulley
B - Length from rear mounting surface to water pump pulley
C - Height from bottom of sump to highest point of intake manifold
D - Height from bottom of sump to top of carburetor
E - Width outside of valve cover to outside of valve cover
It frankly surprises me the 304/401 AMC is so narrow...
 
Last edited:
Top