Suppose that after the war Austrian succession the the Habsburgs/Habsburg-lorraine fail to regain the imperial crown, say the wittlesbachs manage to hold onto it what are the effects?
How do the Wittlesbachs handle the HRE?
Do the Habsburg favour a different title in search of more prestige? E.g. kings of hungary/Bohemia
How does this effect the wars to come? Like the 7 years war?
What effect does this have on German dualism?
For simplicity's sake we are going to assume Austrian territorial losses are as OTL they simply fail to regain the imperial title.
 
Suppose that after the war Austrian succession the the Habsburgs/Habsburg-lorraine fail to regain the imperial crown, say the wittlesbachs manage to hold onto it what are the effects?
How do the Wittlesbachs handle the HRE?
Do the Habsburg favour a different title in search of more prestige? E.g. kings of hungary/Bohemia
How does this effect the wars to come? Like the 7 years war?
What effect does this have on German dualism?
For simplicity's sake we are going to assume Austrian territorial losses are as OTL they simply fail to regain the imperial title.
If I'm not mistaken* durring the War of Austrian Succession the military of Austria started calling itself the "Austrian Army" (although it was officially the "Royal Bohemian and Hungarian Army") for the first time, to differentiate itself from the Bavarians who had taken up their normal title of "Imperial Army". It even adopted a new battle standard (as the Bavarians had also taken up use of the Imperial Eagle) which featured the Madonna. So Perhaps there'd be a United Kingdom of Hungary and Bohemia which is colloquially known as "Austria".

edit: *just double checked my copy of "For God And Kaiser", it would seem I'm right.
 
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If I'm not mistaken durring the War of Austrian Succession the military of Austria started calling itself the "Austrian Army" (although it was officially the "Royal Bohemian and Hungarian Army") for the first time, to differentiate itself from the Bavarians who had taken up their normal title of "Imperial Army". It even adopted a new battle standard (as the Bavarians had also taken up use of the Imperial Eagle) which featured the Madonna. So Perhaps there'd be a United Kingdom of Hungary and Bohemia which is colloquially known as "Austria".
Seems quite plausible to me, I wonder how this effects the Habsburgs political moves, will they be more concerned with the imperial title or Silesia? As I see those as they're primary objectives.
This could make a French habsburg alliance difficult as I would expect the French to back the Bavarian emperor.
 
Seems quite plausible to me, I wonder how this effects the Habsburgs political moves, will they be more concerned with the imperial title or Silesia? As I see those as they're primary objectives.
This could make a French habsburg alliance difficult as I would expect the French to back the Bavarian emperor.
I guess it would depend on how seriously they take their new titles. If it's just a place holder for the Imperial title then Bavaria and France are the likely enemy, they might even break bread with Fredrick over the matter. If they are serious about the whole Kingdom of Bohemia and Hungary, then they can't have Prussia occupying a part of the Bohemian crown.
 
I guess it would depend on how seriously they take their new titles. If it's just a place holder for the Imperial title then Bavaria and France are the likely enemy, they might even break bread with Fredrick over the matter. If they are serious about the whole Kingdom of Bohemia and Hungary, then they can't have Prussia occupying a part of the Bohemian crown.
I think Fredrick would be open to it but I think Maria would avoid it if she could, she hated him. I'm sure Fritz would love to have Silesia secure though, I'm guessing so he could focus on the Wettins, he proved interested in both saxony and Poland.
Honestly Fritz without the austrians keeping him in check could cause all kinds of havoc
 
I dont think you can actually form a "United Kingdom of Bohemia and Hungary" until the HRE is dissolved. As in it would just be a personal union and not a legal union.

However could Austria (including Tyrol, Styria, Carinthia, etc.) be added to the Bohemian crown in the same way that Croatia was part of the Hungarian Crown (or Silesia part of the Bohemian Crown)? Maybe "Austria" will signify nothing more than a region of Bohemia?
 
I dont think you can actually form a "United Kingdom of Bohemia and Hungary" until the HRE is dissolved. As in it would just be a personal union and not a legal union.

However could Austria (including Tyrol, Styria, Carinthia, etc.) be added to the Bohemian crown in the same way that Croatia was part of the Hungarian Crown (or Silesia part of the Bohemian Crown)? Maybe "Austria" will signify nothing more than a region of Bohemia?
Interesting idea no idea how likely it would be though, it could however prove to be a means for the Habsburgs to cement their grip on the Bohemian electoral vote.
 
Interesting idea no idea how likely it would be though, it could however prove to be a means for the Habsburgs to cement their grip on the Bohemian electoral vote.

Except, Bohemia, unlike Hungary initially (sided) with house of Wittelsbach, in this case the Bavarian branch. Whereas Hungary was willing to defend its' queen. Sure the Habsburgs will want to regain Bohemia and the electoral vote, however they would probably favour Hungary over Bohemia.
 
Except, Bohemia, unlike Hungary initially (sided) with house of Wittelsbach, in this case the Bavarian branch. Whereas Hungary was willing to defend its' queen. Sure the Habsburgs will want to regain Bohemia and the electoral vote, however they would probably favour Hungary over Bohemia.
Wouldn't that be more reason to tighten their grip on Bohemia not less?
 
Wouldn't that be more reason to tighten their grip on Bohemia not less?

Tighten yes, but it wouldn't rewarded either. I can't see Vienna being abandoned for Prague, Bohemia will still in part be run from Vienna. Now Buda (it later merged with Pest) might become more important (well at least it has a better chance than Prague).
 
I think Fredrick would be open to it but I think Maria would avoid it if she could, she hated him. I'm sure Fritz would love to have Silesia secure though, I'm guessing so he could focus on the Wettins, he proved interested in both saxony and Poland.
Honestly Fritz without the austrians keeping him in check could cause all kinds of havoc
Certainly that's the case OTL, but with the Wittelsbachs on the Imperial Throne Fritz is just one successful violator of the sanction amongst many. "Get me my throne and we'll turn a blind eye to whatever you do to Saxony" might be something a sufficiently ticked Maria would agree to.
 
Tighten yes, but it wouldn't rewarded either. I can't see Vienna being abandoned for Prague, Bohemia will still in part be run from Vienna. Now Buda (it later merged with Pest) might become more important (well at least it has a better chance than Prague).
I dont believe anyone suggested a change of capital or rewarding the boheminans, merely integrating Austria proper into the Bohemian crown lands, if anything it would be a bit of a slight as Bohemia would be run outide of the actual Bohemian heartland.
Certainly that's the case OTL, but with the Wittelsbachs on the Imperial Throne Fritz is just one successful violator of the sanction amongst many. "Get me my throne and we'll turn a blind eye to whatever you do to Saxony" might be something a sufficiently ticked Maria would agree to.
It's certainly possible and I'm curious as to what kind of trouble Fredrick might get himself into without having to bleed Prussia white holding onto Silesia.
I wonder what the shelf life is for a Wittelsbach led HRE...
It might even be longer than OTL, I wouldn' be surprised if the wittlesbachs are thought of as the French's puppet emperor which could spare them the otl HRE's fate
 
It's certainly possible and I'm curious as to what kind of trouble Fredrick might get himself into without having to bleed Prussia white holding onto Silesia.
I imagine a War with the PLC and Russia over the annexation of Royal Prussia at the minimum.

It might even be longer than OTL, I wouldn' be surprised if the wittlesbachs are thought of as the French's puppet emperor which could spare them the otl HRE's fate
I'm thinking the same thing.
 
I imagine a War with the PLC and Russia over the annexation of Royal Prussia at the minimum.


I'm thinking the same thing.
I imagine the Prussians would want to find an ally for that one but I wouldn't be surprised if Frederick pulled something similar to the third Silesia war, over running Saxony and pressing their army into his service and then using it to invade the PLC, which would be one hell of a middle finger to house Wettin.

The former probably, being HRE gave them legitimacy in meddling on German affairs.
Yes I lean that way aswell, the imperial title will probably be top priority.
 
I imagine the Prussians would want to find an ally for that one
Assuming there is some sort of pragmatic detente with *Austria, maybe Maria could be convinced (after many tears for her co-religious) that Gallicia would be good compensation for Silesia.

but I wouldn't be surprised if Frederick pulled something similar to the third Silesia war, over running Saxony and pressing their army into his service and then using it to invade the PLC, which would be one hell of a middle finger to house Wettin.
Now that's just cruel.
 
Given how hard Maria Theresa worked to regain Silesia after its loss, I can't imagine she'd simply write off her family's imperial crown. She's going to be going at it until she's in the grave, and since the OP supposes no further territorial losses she may yet have the power to do it.

Regardless of what happens, Charles Albert won't be emperor for long. He was only in his 40s when elected, but he was in awful health. He had crippling gout, kidney stones, and before his death complained of constant indigestion and shortness of breath. An autopsy after his death showed lesions on most of his internal organs, including his lungs, heart, and liver. There's no way this guy makes it to 50. So we're necessarily looking at the reign of Emperor Maximilian III, Charles Albert's son, who was a decent guy but rather weak and vacillating when it came to politics. Particularly since the OP's conditions don't grant Bavaria any additional land, a French-dominated imperial court seems inevitable under Max III; perpetually bankrupt Bavaria doesn't have the cash to win an imperial election nor the troops to fend off Austria on its own, so Max only wins and keeps his crown if France is backing him to the hilt. In 1741-42, France's argument (conveyed by Belle-Isle) to the German electors was that it was better for Germany to elect a real German like Charles Albert over that French princeling Francis Stephen, but this is going to be a tougher sell after it becomes evident that Charles Albert's "reign" was basically the Louis XV Puppet Show.

If Max III manages to get it, IMO Maria Theresa's obsession over lost Silesia is going to be nothing compared to her anger at being robbed of the imperial crown; but then again the Austrians can't take back an elected crown like they can reconquer a province, and thus in the short term I expect Silesia is still going to be a bone of contention. A French-backed Bavarian imperial court, however, makes a Franco-Austrian alliance pretty much impossible, so the "diplomatic revolution" is probably averted. This makes a new offensive against Prussia much harder for Austria, since Britain still presumably wants to cozy up to Prussia but Austria doesn't have the option to defect to France as they did IOTL. No doubt Austria, Saxony, and Russia would still be interested in an anti-Prussia coalition, but there's no way Britain supports Prussia against those allies as long as Austria remains the key bulwark against the French-dominated HRE.

So here's some scenarios off the top of my head:

1. Boring Europe. Austria fears to attack Prussia without British support and buries the hatchet with Spain as IOTL. Europe remains in an uneasy peace until Max III dies, but he could easily avoid his OTL smallpox death ITTL and outlive Maria Theresa, who is older than him. France and Britain, however, still have their foreign disputes, so we likely see a colonial war unfold in America and India without a large European component (aside, perhaps, from some invasion scares and the British screwing around with amphibious operations).
2. The Prussia Stomp. Austria, Saxony, Russia, and maybe Sweden or something gang up on Prussia. Britain sits this one out, but so does France, because a) Frederick is a faithless bastard and b) Britain warns the French that they'll join in on Austria's side if France intervenes. Either Frederick pulls a miracle out of his pants even greater than his OTL miracle (since now he doesn't even have British subsidies to count on), or he gets crushed, which quite frankly is what the man deserves. Alternatively, France joins anyway and Britain shortly thereafter, and it's pretty much "War of the Austrian Succession Part II" except this time the Russians actually do something.
3. Britain's Fantasy League. Maria Theresa hates that Frederick guy but she hates the Bavarians having the imperial crown even more, and thus the British achieve their dearest dream of patching up things between Prussia and Austria (at least for now) and stitching together an anti-French alliance of Austria, Britain, Prussia, and maybe Saxony. Either the Austrians force the election of their guy after the death of Max III and the French accept it, or they don't accept it and war ensues between France along with the Bavarian-led HRE (so basically just France then) against the great anti-French alliance. Notwithstanding a Spanish-Austrian peace in Italy, Spain may feel obliged to join in if France starts getting its ass handed to it too hard. The French can hold their own but I suspect the likely result here is Austria getting the empire back. On the other hand, Frederick might betray Austria if France starts losing too hard, since he would naturally fear that a victorious Austria would turn on him next, and because "Dolchstoß" is Frederick's middle name.
4. The Comedy Option. I don't know the source exactly, but in Reed Browning's book on the WoAS he mentioned that after the death of Charles Albert one of d'Argenson's stranger ideas was that since the French had no good candidate to run against the Austrians maybe they could compromise and make nobody emperor, and the HRE would become some kind of federal feudal republic. Okay, this is never going to happen, but it would certainly be funny, wouldn't it?
 
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Assuming there is some sort of pragmatic detente with *Austria, maybe Maria could be convinced (after many tears for her co-religious) that Gallicia would be good compensation for Silesia.


Now that's just cruel.
Perhaps Maria was convinced to take part of the first partition, even a relatively token Austrian involvement would be disastrous for the PLC if Dresden, Krakow and then Warsaw were to all fall in relatively short order the war could be over before the Russians really get their feet wet or at least I imagine that's what would be hoped for, interestingly Poland could well survive as a Russian protectorate under house Wettin even if reduced although I imagine the Russian will eventually want Poland's east Slavic lands.
 
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A Bavarian victory in the WotAS (which I've considered) would almost certainly mean a loss of substantial Austrian territory. At the least Bavaria will take Bohemia and Tirol, and France the Low Countries; Prussia walks away with Silesia. IIRC Moravia would have gone to Saxony, and Bavaria also was interested in Upper Austria.

Under these circumstances "Austria" is basically Hungary+Carinthia (and Austria Proper), and France is terrifying the British. There will almost certainly be another war backed by Britain, with Austria and (in all likelihood, as Frederick II doesn't really want a French dominated Germany any more than an Austrian dominated one) Prussia against France, Bavaria, and (possibly) Russia. How that goes is anybody's guess, but I'd bet on the anti-French coalition.
 
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