Greeks in Anatolia
- Thread starter Strategos' Risk
- Start date
I don't see any conquests of the whole thing as being tenable over the long period, or even as long as two decades without major luck and a willingness to kick revolts in the face.
Constantinople and the couple of other cities near there, and that coastal reagion, is possible.
EDIT: Parts? I misread the first time as all of Anatolia.
Anyway, now that I edited this anyway, I might as well go into more detail on my second sentence of the original. If the Greeks can get away with it, there will be incredibly poor relations with Turkey (obviously), involving either population exchange to a greater extent than in reality, or an unpopular discriminatory policy towards Turks, assuming the 'Byzantine' ideal which is reasonable to assume. It may happen in the second scenario that Greece loosens up close to the present but either way it will be quite controversial. Think about Turkey/Armenians and Kurds. This will be at least that bad for public relations, probably worse.
Constantinople and the couple of other cities near there, and that coastal reagion, is possible.
EDIT: Parts? I misread the first time as all of Anatolia.
Anyway, now that I edited this anyway, I might as well go into more detail on my second sentence of the original. If the Greeks can get away with it, there will be incredibly poor relations with Turkey (obviously), involving either population exchange to a greater extent than in reality, or an unpopular discriminatory policy towards Turks, assuming the 'Byzantine' ideal which is reasonable to assume. It may happen in the second scenario that Greece loosens up close to the present but either way it will be quite controversial. Think about Turkey/Armenians and Kurds. This will be at least that bad for public relations, probably worse.
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In the 1920s, I think Turkey was viewed as a defeated opponent in the Balkans but looked upon somewhat approvingly by the former Allied powers as a somewhat successful republic emerging from the remains of the Ottoman Empire. The Turks would certainly not want to lose much of Thrace, since it was essentially a buffer zone around their capital, so if it came to war I think it's possible that the Allies wouldn't allow Greece to annex much of Thrace- they would certainly want the Turks to keep Constantinople. But if there was a genuine desire in Greece to reastablish some sort of Byzantine throwback state, then possession of Constantinople would be crucial and you could see a serious rivalry devolop in the region. Not sure what would come of it, or if the desire to create such a Byzantine throwback state even existed seriously in Greece, but it could be interesting...
Keenir
Banned
if they conquered western Turkey like they did in OTL, there wouldn't be a Muslim population left to rule over.
so they'd have a lot of farmlands, but a lot of land would go to seed because the Greek population isn't high enough to spread over the area.
in addition, the Greeks would be pariahs to pretty much the entire world, thanks to their wiping out the west Anatolian Turks and Jews. (so maybe, desperate, the Greeks side with Hitler because he's the only one offering a hand to them?)
If they win the Graeco-Turkish war, they might get the demilitarised zone plus their earlier gains (and keep northern Epirus/southern Albania quietly), that means Nicea, Constantinople and all of Thrace.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greekhistory.GIF
The christians of Anatolia greeted the Greeks as liberators, and there were quite a few of them, even after the genocide on the Armenians 1915-1918. The white Russians passed by Constantinople after being thrown out of southern Russia and the Ukraine - if the Greeks got land to offer, I am sure some of those fellow orthodox christians could stay. The white russians could probably provide the Black Sea navy (including the battleship Imperator Alexandr) as payment for land. There's also plenty of Armenians and Greeks in the rest of Anatolia to resettle. The Pontic Greeks, nowadays mostly assimilated and speaking Turkish, being forced to do so by Atatürk, for example, could add to the Greek population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greekhistory.GIF
The christians of Anatolia greeted the Greeks as liberators, and there were quite a few of them, even after the genocide on the Armenians 1915-1918. The white Russians passed by Constantinople after being thrown out of southern Russia and the Ukraine - if the Greeks got land to offer, I am sure some of those fellow orthodox christians could stay. The white russians could probably provide the Black Sea navy (including the battleship Imperator Alexandr) as payment for land. There's also plenty of Armenians and Greeks in the rest of Anatolia to resettle. The Pontic Greeks, nowadays mostly assimilated and speaking Turkish, being forced to do so by Atatürk, for example, could add to the Greek population.
White Russians settling in a Greater Greece seems like an AH nugget that ought to be pursued in the future.
I did start working on such a time-line in the past. White Russian representatives in the Greek parliament (they had thiier own parties) did Catoesque finals of all thier speeches adding something like "I also think that communism must be destroyed" and booed whenever a socialist or communist member of the parliament spoke. 
With such a high anti-communist movement within Greece, one could expect Greece to join the Axis in World War II.
With such a devastated Turkey and such a powerful Greece, maybe then we see Greece invading Turkey during WWII and trying to reinstate Byzantium.
Huge butterflies here on powet-world-war-II situation.
With such a devastated Turkey and such a powerful Greece, maybe then we see Greece invading Turkey during WWII and trying to reinstate Byzantium.
Huge butterflies here on powet-world-war-II situation.
Perhaps, perhaps not. Depends on Italy, Turkey and Bulgaria, I think. Getting this small Empire would be dependent on British and French support - Greece was post-war a warm ally of the Little Entente, the French construction - an alliance between Romania, Yugoslavia and Greece to contain any Austrian, Hungarian or Bulgarian revanchist ideas. Britain and France were very anti-communist too.
The Megali Idea included Plovdid (Phillipopolis), Cyprys, the Dodecanese, Trabzon, and in some instances even Crimea!
The British gave the Greeks the Ionian islands 1864, I could see them giving Cyprus away for free basing rights. Peddling off some ships that needed to be scrapped to Greece (perhaps the dreadnoughts HMS Erin and HMS Agincourt, which ironically were siezed Ottoman ships) - the British get a strong and loyal ally capable of dominating the Aegean and perhaps all of the Northeastern Med. Combine this with the 120 000 exiles from Ukraine and Crimea with all of what remained of the Imperial Russian Black Sea Fleet, including the dreadnought Imperator Alexandr, and you have a pretty strong Greece.
However, the Greeks wanted Megali Hellas, not a new Roman Empire (the Byzantines always considered themselves Rhomanoi, Roman), so I don't see them going after more of Turkey. They might want to crush the Turkish state, since it is hard to defend the Anatolian coasts if someone else holds the highlands (as the Byzantines discovered), but annex? Nah.
The White Russians were none too fond of the Germans, and like German monarchists would probably despise the little corporal in Berlin.
Here's a link listing the ships Wrangel took to Constantinople late 1920.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrangel's_fleet
The Megali Idea included Plovdid (Phillipopolis), Cyprys, the Dodecanese, Trabzon, and in some instances even Crimea!
The British gave the Greeks the Ionian islands 1864, I could see them giving Cyprus away for free basing rights. Peddling off some ships that needed to be scrapped to Greece (perhaps the dreadnoughts HMS Erin and HMS Agincourt, which ironically were siezed Ottoman ships) - the British get a strong and loyal ally capable of dominating the Aegean and perhaps all of the Northeastern Med. Combine this with the 120 000 exiles from Ukraine and Crimea with all of what remained of the Imperial Russian Black Sea Fleet, including the dreadnought Imperator Alexandr, and you have a pretty strong Greece.
However, the Greeks wanted Megali Hellas, not a new Roman Empire (the Byzantines always considered themselves Rhomanoi, Roman), so I don't see them going after more of Turkey. They might want to crush the Turkish state, since it is hard to defend the Anatolian coasts if someone else holds the highlands (as the Byzantines discovered), but annex? Nah.
The White Russians were none too fond of the Germans, and like German monarchists would probably despise the little corporal in Berlin.
Here's a link listing the ships Wrangel took to Constantinople late 1920.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wrangel's_fleet
The OP quote is a comment from a blog post, so you don't necessarily need to take it wholesale. Greece might simply trying to expand into western Anatolia, not forming a neo-Byzantine Empire (which may be an ASB concept by the 20th century).
yourworstnightmare
Banned
Greece wanted Greek subjects, not Turks or any other nationality. Had Greece been able to hold parts of Anatolia all non- Greeks would be chased away.
Jaded_Railman
Banned
It bears mentioning that 'Greek' and 'Turk' in post-Ottoman Anatolia was basically just the difference between 'Christian' and 'Muslim'. The Turks who had invaded and settled Anatolia after Manzikert had long assimilated into the general population. The ethnicity of someone in the area mattered less than what language you spoke at home and whether you worshiped the cross or the crescent.
Keenir
Banned
look at the Greek invasion of 1920.
even the British - who were die-hard Greek enthusiasts - condemned the Greek actions.
There wasn't any genocide in Ionia carried by Greeks in 1919-22. The actions the Europeans contemned were incidents of slain of Turks by greek troops provoced by prior slains of Greek civilians and soldiers by Turk irregulars. These actions are not justified, but they couldn't have been prevented, especially after the pogroms against the local Greeks during the Balkan Wars and WW I.
Venizelos had asigned Fotiades as High Commitioner in Smyrna and this man was very careful about the behaviour of Greece towards the local Turks. He was even accused of beeing pro-Turkish!
In any case the Greeks would form an overwhelming majority in the region, since all Greek of Anatolia (i.e. form the region of Antalya, Cilicia, Cappadocia, Pontus etc) would flow into the Greek-dominated areas. Note that in 1922-3, during the exchange of populations, even after many died during the war and the procedure of the exchange, 1,500,000 ethnic Greeks flew to Greece.
If Greece were able to maintain the yellow areas after the Graeco-Turkish war, it is almost sure that there would be another Graeco-Turkish war, probably in the mid-1930's. I can't see Greece loosing this war either, except if Italy joined Turkey. In that case the result is under question.
Venizelos had asigned Fotiades as High Commitioner in Smyrna and this man was very careful about the behaviour of Greece towards the local Turks. He was even accused of beeing pro-Turkish!
In any case the Greeks would form an overwhelming majority in the region, since all Greek of Anatolia (i.e. form the region of Antalya, Cilicia, Cappadocia, Pontus etc) would flow into the Greek-dominated areas. Note that in 1922-3, during the exchange of populations, even after many died during the war and the procedure of the exchange, 1,500,000 ethnic Greeks flew to Greece.
If Greece were able to maintain the yellow areas after the Graeco-Turkish war, it is almost sure that there would be another Graeco-Turkish war, probably in the mid-1930's. I can't see Greece loosing this war either, except if Italy joined Turkey. In that case the result is under question.
I'd agree with others who've stated that if Greece wins the Greco-Turkish war there's likely to be a big effect on Wolrd War II; while the Greek invasion was condemned at the time I'd suspect that control of the straits and the passage of 15 years is likely to have given Greece a chance of repairing some of the diplomatic damage the invasion and conquest inflicted. I could see Greece having eventually repaired relations with Britain and France in order to join the Allies, but as others have said Greece could also end up allied to the Axis, especially if their government takes a hard turn to right in order to hold the Ionian coast.
Whichever side Greece ends up on, the Turks are extremely likely to take the opposite one in order to make a try at regaining their losses.
Whichever side Greece ends up on, the Turks are extremely likely to take the opposite one in order to make a try at regaining their losses.
Abdul Hadi Pasha
Banned
Because the population of the area in question is overwhelmingly Muslim, so the only way for it to become part of a Greek national state is to obliterate the Muslim population. And if Greece's actual behavior in OTL is any indication, it's hard to come to any other conclusion that there would be a genocide. Even after they were defeated and it was clear the Megali Idea was dead, they killed everyone in their path of retreat, burned every building, and even went so far as to chop down every tree. The city of Bursa was only saved from being levelled by the British, who suddenly developed a conscience and intervened there.
Besides that, all of what is now Greece used to have a substantial Muslim population - in the northern half, the Muslims actually outnumbered the Greeks. They were all exterminated or evicted.
Anyway, Greece is too weak to acomplish this without major support from the Powers. Even with substantial British assistance, they got their asses kicked.