Greater Carolingian Empire: What if Germany and France remained united?

Greetings!

This little gedankenexperiment will revolve around the question how the world today would look like if the Carolingian dynasty managed to keep the Frankish Empire together. The most interesting part about French and German history is how despite them evolving out of the same empire, the states couldn’t have developed more differently. Germany as a federal state, France as a central state; Germany as a ground force, France as a sea force; Germany as an elective monarchy, France as a hereditary monarchy. So in order to tackle this question we have to ask what the key factors were for these changes to have happened. And examining history, it seems as if the main difference was that Germany viewed itself as an Empire way before the French. The moment the aristocrats elected the first Emperor it was obvious that they saw themselves bound together instead of living on a land privately owned by the King of the respective territory. In France, I’d argue, this development took way more time and first was completed during the late 15th and early 16th century. In contrast to Germany, France wasn’t just federal but rather culturally divided between West and East and didn’t view itself as a unity. It was first when the Parisian Crown conquered these territories that French developed into a central state – something that never was necessary in Germany because all the houses accepted their status as a subject to the emperor. However, federalism in Germany developed rampantly and, at some point, the emperor only had theoretical rather than functional power. So, with all that in mind, let’s see how we can tweak history and what impact that would have on the world.

Political Development:

This alternate history scenario starts at the Battle of Fontenoy (841). It’s of utmost importance for Charles the Bold and Louis the German to survive and for emperor Lothair to win. If Charles and Louis should die, history only would repeat itself with Lothair’s three sons. At the Treaty of Verdun, Louis and Charles are forced to subject to Lothair and accept his hegemony as an emperor. In return, he allows Charles and Louis to continue ruling as a king, though their sphere of influence will be restricted to Neustria (Charles) and Austrasia (Louis). By keeping the titles as a king, both brothers keep their honor intact while Lothair establishes his supremacy. He allows Louis to install his sons as kings of Bavaria and Suebia, Pepin II is crowned king of Aquitaine and Lothairs own sons are granted kingdoms in Frisia (Lothair II), Langobardia (Louis II), and Provence (Charles I). Other duchies and counties such as Saxony, Septimania/Gothia, Cascony, Thuringia, the West March (Spanish March), and Spoleto are under the direct influence of Lothair. He appoints new leaders or allows their sons to precede, though they must always subject to him. At this point, the only real difference in power between the kings and the dukes and counts was that Lothair didn’t disempower them when he felt the need to. But he made sure to establish himself as the leader of all the kings. This is the period in which the Empire slowly shifted from viewing the king as their supreme leader to the emperor. By keeping their titles as King of Francia the regions of Neustria and Austrasia slowly become synonymous with Francia and thus will latter be known as West Francia and East Francia.

After Lothair’s death 855, his son Louis II succeeded him and while he started out fine, he slowly lost control due to his uncles plotting behind his back. Louis the German established an alliance with the Bulgarians and Moravians outside of his border, while Charles the Bold gave land to powerful nobles to gain allies. Louis II spend lots of time in Italy and thus, his uncles appointed dukes and counts themselves. Louis II lost control over the empire, but after his childless death 875 the nobles felt as if they needed a successor to rule the Empire. Louis the German expected the nobles to appoint him since he had the larger army and overall was considered a better leader. However, the nobles postponed the decision and called in a vote. All kings automatically ran for election. These elections were held in private (though some historians might find some original voting documents buried in a monastery) and the nobles presented the decision as uniformly. Charles the Bold was voted for Emperor due to him having made more allies in the Empire than Louis the German. The later didn’t accept the results, armed himself, but died before he could launch an attack. Charles dies a year after. He’s succeeded by Louis the German’s sons Louis III (877-882) and Charles III (882-888). Charles III is the last emperor to unite several landmasses under one banner (he controlled Bavaria, Suebia, East Francia, and West Francia). In order to gain the support of a majority of the nobles, Arnulf of Carinthia promises to keep the territorial identity of all duchies and counties intact and only appoint new leaders. This helps him win the election. However, after Charles III death several people have claimed the title of a king within the empire. In order to tackle the issue, Arnulf and the nobles come up with a plan to administratively share the power between all five kings: A West realm (around Aquitaine), a North realm (around West Francia), a Middle realm (around Lotharingia and Burgundy), an East realm (around East Francia, Suebia and Bavaria), and Italy. Every realm should have the same amount of duchies and counties. However, those were not separate kingdoms, only administrative divisions and all the nobles in any given realm could install their king independently. This gave the individual noble more power and made them accept the terms. Despite Charles IV not participating the plan takes place. The North and West realm are united shortly after. Arnulf of Carinthia dies 899, Louis IV is elected new emperor, until he’s blinded 906. Charles IV is voted new emperor and dies 929, the King of the Middle Realm Rudolf unites the Middle realm with the West realm. By the time of Otto the Great two equally sized realms exist (West and East) while Italy is slightly smaller. So far, this is similar to the OT. However, the Western and Eastern part of the empire have not broken apart. Otto the Great meets with Hugo and they strike a deal: Hugo accepts the supremacy of the emperor and also that the Eastern kings will be granted that title (since he controlled more of the nobles by this point). Otto in return grants Hugo autonomy. As long as the emperor does not oppose him, the Western king can rule as he pleases. Though both must meet occasionally and talk about the maters of the empire. The Eastern king thus becomes somewhat of a vice emperor. In order to signal that these aren’t independent empires they call themselves King of the People and not King of the Realm. Otto, who himself was of Saxon heritage, allows Hugo to solely hold the title King of the Franks while he himself holds the title King of the Teutons. The Italian king holds the title King of the Italians. Wording was very important to signal ruling hierarchy and thus was applied here.

What has changed?

So, we are now looking at a situation in which the Frankish Empire (now also called the Holy Roman Empire) is a federal empire which operates under the principle of subsidiarity. First comes the Emperor, then the three kings, then the duchies and counties, and then the countless smaller counties within the duchies and counties. The emperor is elected by the nobles, he himself installs the nobles. The other two kings are more of a representative of all the nobles and people in any given area. One, to gain their acceptance and second, to communicate problems directly to the emperor.

Cultural development

These changes will, in the long run, prevent regional identities from vanishing. Similar to the Roman Empire, the people will keep their regional traditions and languages while also developing a Christian-Roman identity. They will see themselves as citizens of the renovatio imperii, of the one and only last empire of the world. They will feel bound through their faith and a collective sharing of philosophical traditions. Charles the Great will be worshiped as the Father of the Empire. The influence of the Roman-Catholic Church will create similar traditions throughout the empire most people share. Later, the people will rediscover Cicero and the idea of them being the fathers and mothers of Republic traditions and mindsets will unite them even further. A shared language will emerge, though it will take some time. Languages will develop along regional traditions. It will first be when printing emerges that language will be an issue and similar to how High German evolved around Martin Luther, probably a bible translation would be a starting point for a joint language. It’s difficult to say though what language that would be. Most likely a hybrid language such as English would be created. The Frankish nobles in OT France would continue speaking their Frankish dialogue for some time since they are still connected to the Emperor. Though it is possible that French will also be spoken in the German speaking regions, similar to how Prussian king Frederick the Great only used French at his court. I think both scenarios are more likely than German becoming the dominant language in the West. However, I’m almost certain the kings will prefer a regional language for their realm which will be taught alongside the Imperial language at school. A Spanish language in Spain, a French language in France, a German language in Germany, a Slavic language in the East and an Italian language in Italy. Not too much different than what happened in the OT, just that a Slavic language will emerge. By 2018, every citizen will be raised in three languages (Imperial language, Realm language, regional language), similar to OT Switzerland.

The large amount of people and fertile lands within the Imperial boarder will allow the Emperor to command a large army. Undoubtedly, the Holy Roman Army will be the strongest army within Europe, by far. The Emperor will not just have his standing army but also the local armies of the dukes he can call upon if needed. The Empire will not be able to use that for their advantage though. They will conquer territories in the East but the army cannot help in integrating and assimilating the people of said land. Since the Emperor mostly identifies himself through war victories, the Empire will be in constant war on its boarders. Who doesn’t join the army will either be farmer or employed by the local dukes and counts. So the army will be the only successful way for the Emperor to communicate directly to his subjects. This will have a serious drawback though: the Empire will be extremely week to sea and having a large costal boarder will make it an open invitation for foreign invaders to plunder the villages. The army will use lots of its time fighting of foreign invaders, which is great for the Emperor since he can communicate to the people that he is willing to protect them but bad for the economy of the Empire which stagnates. Due to the war centric nature of the Empire and federalism having a negative impact on it, the economy develops even less than in the OT. The local nobles mostly just collect the fee of the Imperial subjects and live a relaxed life. Hardly any competition exists between the territories and thus, advancement is almost nonexistent. This goes on even longer than in the OT since the Reformation hardly has an impact on the Empire and thus the many Catholic and Protestant universities and the reigniting education never happens. Also, since the Fall of Constantinople is postponed by the Holy Roman Soldiers helping out, the Renaissance does not occur during the 15th century.

It is first during the late 16th and early 17th century that the Imperial subjects come into contact to the Chinese. Their culture sparks fascination throughout the Empire. Of course, they do not disband Christianity but start conducting science as a way to explore the wonder of Gods creations. They conduct astronomy, arithmetic, physics, art, and history. They rediscover their Roman-Hellenistic traditions. Universities are founded throughout the land, Latin is taught, Cicero and Plato return in the collective mindset and with them their idea of a Republican state. It’s a similar situation to how the Romans were a strong military force but built their entire culture around the Hellenistic lifestyle. The Empire now develops rapidly, creating roads and becoming more mobile in order to visit the places they read about. More young people visit schools and learn to read since the Catholic church offers schools for free. Tight relationships are held to the Chinese Empire. The Emperor addresses the Qing Emperor with Brother and considers him as equal – something even the Byzantine Emperor was not granted. The Empire tries to mirror the Chinese education as closely as possible. This is the Renaissance of the Empire.

It was first then that federalism was a true bless to the Empire. The contest between all the duchies and counties led to many new technical advantages due to the vast amount of resources and materials within the Imperial border. Due to the large domestic market, resources could be transported easily and everyone could profit from the new innovations. More and more roads were built to transport the materials and the finished products. By the beginning of the 20th Century the Empire has developed into a Superpower and until this day it is the most militarily advanced and has the greatest economy of the World. Since all regions developed similarly there is now disparity between East and West. In recent years though, the Economy grew lesser and lesser. Experts see the large amount of state-run companies as the main reason. The Holy Roman Empire had always rejected the Anglo-Saxon idea of a completely liberal market and tried to regulate as much as possible. The United States equivalent and China are closing the gap though which is why privatizing programs have been started. Left-winged parties regularly hold demonstrations against this development.

1848 the Empire will have its first national parliament. 1912 the duchies and counties will withdraw their right to vote the Emperor and allow the people to vote him in a four-year-schedule. Coronations in Rome by the Pope are always a giant TV-spectacle.

Religious development

Religion will be an important factor in the development of the Empire and in the identity of the Imperial Citizens. Catholicism won’t just be considered a religion, it will encapsulate a certain lifestyle, a commitment to a certain set of values, and a pledge to the inheritance of philosophical traditions. Even in 2018 of the AT, 97% of the citizens still consider themselves Catholic Christians. Even if they might reject the idea of a God and don’t visit mass anymore, they identify themselves with the philosophical background and the set of values it provides. 1,6% of Muslims live in the Empire, mostly in the East, and 0,9% Jews. 0,4% consider themselves Atheists which is looked upon with disgrace in the Empire. Often those people are insulted as Anarchists, Antidemocrats, and Bolshevists.

Most Popes throughout history accepted the voted Emperor and crowned him, although they insisted that prior to the coronation they are only elected as a candidate for emperor. It’s not as if they would have been too picky in the OT anyway and if, the Emperors mostly installed a Pope in their favor. Since the 8th Century the Empire and the Pope administrated the Patriarchate of Picenia (the region around Ravenna) joint, the Pope installed the Archbishop as leader while the Emperor protected it and thus could consider it part of his Empire. Though it took until the 19th Century before Rome reunited with the Empire. The Pope remains the lifelong elected leader of the Patriarchate Latium, thus him being the only ruler in the Empire who cannot be removed from office. Though he had to consent to let all people of the Patriarchate vote for him.

The Reformation still happened though it was way less impactful. Basically, the amount of Protestants were too small and the Catholic hegemony too strong for a Schism to occur. At the Council of Trent (1545-1563) the Protestants got enough concessions to return to the Catholic Church: local language was allowed during liturgy of the Word, but not during Communion. Females were allowed as deacons again. Sola gratia and Solus Christus was canonized while the importance of the Bible was emphasized without abandoning tradition completely. Sola Fide was not canonized but the importance of doing penance by oneself was highlighted. This, in the long run, kept modern ideas within the Catholic Church. Basically, being the state religion of the Holy Roman Empire at this point, the Church naturally developed with the zeitgeist of the Empire. This caused the Catholic Church to evolve alongside the Imperial Renaissance after encountering China and thus, prevented it from turning archaic or out of touch with the believers. 1993 they eventually allowed women to be anointed. The Scandinavian Empire in the North took the ideas of Calvin further though and founded their own Protestant Church 1573, highlighting the differences by abandoning vestments, anointing women and cutting their ties to the Pope who was considered an ally of the rivaled Empire.

The East–West Schism was disbanded in the early 20th Century. The Eastern-Orthodox Church was either in the hands of the anti-religious Bolshevists or the Muslim Ottomans. The Patriarch of Constantinople sought the help of the Pope and after a long Council (1921-1938) the Schism was lifted and Constantinople and the Mount Athos became holy places of Catholic Christianity as well.

During the development of the Empire, eleven other Roman-Catholic Patriarchs were installed, matching the number of Apostles. Prior to being installed they had to be consecrated by the Pope to be in the Apostolic succession. Those 12 Patriarchs are in: Barcelona, Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Colonia, Tours, Bethlehem, Heiligelinde, Milan, Venice, Königsberg, and the Mount Athos. The Twelve have an important role as a voice of moral and ethics and are respected within the Empire. After WW2 they hold occasional meetings to issue a judgement regarding political decisions or social questions, the CEM (Council of Ethics and Moral). Despite only the Pope having secular power and him being the head of the Patriarchs, their voices matter equally. Politicians are often criticized for ignoring their advice. 2005, for example, the Twelve condemned the Iraq War and proposed a peaceful solution. Since 1993 women are allowed the become a Matriarch, though until now only one of the twelve is a woman which is often criticized in media and talk shows as the Council of Elderly Men.

Territorial development

The Empire will mostly grow towards the East, though slowly. The Carolingians mostly weren’t interested in confronting large powers but rather conquering unorganized tribes. It always took some time cultivating and assimilating them into their society, though. After Charles the Great it took around 50 years for the Saxons to assimilate, Henry I then sought to move the boarder slightly more to the East. I believe the Holy Roman Emperors would maintain this practice, especially since most of them will be kings of the Eastern realm. Since the local dukes and counts took care of organizational matters and administrative duties, the Emperors had to earn respect by either successfully defending the Empire or being victorious in battle. They would lead the Imperial army. Every duke had their own private army, which the emperor could call upon in time of needs. The kings had to form their army by recruiting soldiers of the dukes. In a new constitution signed in the 17th century, it was declared forbidden for an Imperial soldier to fight against another Imperial soldier.

In the long run, the Empire will expand towards the East, most likely into the territory controlled by the Teutonic Order in OT and assimilate them. Poland will not be conquered since by the time the Holy Romans reach the area it will already be organized and have a king accepted by the Pope. Similar to Bohemia and Moravia though, they will, at some point, subject to the Emperor, most likely because of Russia. The unorganized Slavic tribes might assimilate into German culture and language. The former Teutonic Order regions will most likely be German up to OT Estonia. The regions around OT Poland, Bellarus, Bohemia, Moravia, Croatia, and Silesia will keep their Slavic identity though and in the 19th Century will be granted an own realm in the Eastern part of the Empire, either under Bohemian or Polish supremacy (though Prague will be the capital).

The Balkans will only partially be conquered. During the 11th Century, the Byzantines will defeat the Bulgarian Empire. It is then that they will launch a coordinated attack to take over Croatia: the Holy Roman Empire will take the inner part, whereas the Byzantines will take the part around Dalmatia. This will preserve the Dalmatian culture and language to survive. The Croats will take a similar role within the Empire as Bohemia did, having their own duke with the title King in Croatia. Denmark will eventually be conquered. Though it will take almost 150 years, until the Empire can take full control over the territories. The terrain is hard to navigate through for land soldiers and the sea supremacy of the Danes will cause the Empire lots of trouble. Hence, why they will never conquer Great Britain or Scandinavia. Next to the Holy Roman Empire, the Scandinavian Empire will develop as a strong rival and be the equivalent of what the Persians were to the Romans: two super Empires who are just in constant war with each other. The Thirty Years' War won’t be as much an inner German conflict as a conflict of the superpowers who can’t defeat each other because the Holy Roman Empire is way stronger by land whereas the Scandinavian Empire is way stronger by sea.

The Reconquista will still happen, but not at a faster pace. As aforementioned, the Empire wasn’t interested in long lasting conflicts against other strong empires. In fact, they would first act after the Muslim’s attack the Gascony around 920. Emperor Charles IV would push the Muslim forces back and the nobles of the Christian territories would subject to him (except Asturias which joins later by marriage). He would then become obsessed with the idea of conquering territory in the West and would try to push the Muslims back to the Lake Ebro to create a natural boarder. But he would terribly underestimate the Muslims, lose 20.000 men and will only be able to secure the boarders because of Henry’s reinforcements. It will then take some time until the West March (Spanish March) develops into Aragon. The respected leader will be named the forth king of the Empire, King of the Iberians. Thus, he will feel the need to expand into the entire Iberian Peninsula whereas the Emperors didn’t see any need to. After the Reconquista is completed, Muslims and Jews will have it slightly better. The Jews will be allowed to remain there since the Empire already has Jewish protection laws (against a few, of course) and the converted Muslims aren’t treated inferior to the old Catholics. Only those who remain Muslims must leave the Empire towards Morocco. The regional identities in OT Spain will remain and the King of the Iberians won’t oppress those identities. Thus, the Basque and Catalonian independence campaigns will be a lot smaller and only carried on by extremist groups.

North Africa will not be affected by the changes. The rest of Africa will most likely have less Christians and more Muslims since the Europeans don’t have the same incentive to expand beyond their boarders as in the OT. Being mostly independent in terms of resources and not having the same fear from Muslim invasions, Christianity will hardly be represented in Africa, excluding the around 12% of old Coptic Christians in Egypt.

Britain is never conquered. There is no scenario in which the Emperor would set of to Britain. He would have to continuously travel to Britain to remain control and I don’t see that happening. However, the Normans might still conquer it, but the Norman Empire won’t exist due to the Emperor remaining control over the Normandy.

The Crusades remain mostly the same. Instead of sending a bunch of farmers and landless lords though, the Emperors will send proper soldiers which will help the Byzantines in reconquering Jerusalem for their own Empire, though it will never last long. Some Emperors will fight on the forefront in hopping to gain glory.

Colonization is changed drastically. The Empire never has the same strive to find new places oversea to expand to. Hence, the first people to canonically find America are the Scandinavians, who colonize it via the Greenland route. Some duchies and counts to colonize parts of the world, since colonizing them means that they can expand their sphere of influence outside of the Empire without interfering with the Emperor. New Aquitaine, New Aragon, New Britany, and New Portugal are founded in South America. For the most part though, the Brits and Scandinavians are involved: Britain colonizes Canada, whereas the Scandinavian settlers found the AFS (Amerikas förenta state), a super state including Mexico and parts of the Caribbean. The only territories that officially belong to the Holy Roman Empire are some scattered Caribbean islands (which they can use for vacation, I guess).

World War 1

The rest of the Balkans will still be under Ottoman control. The Empire will only save Byzantium when Constantinople is almost fallen 1453. They will then treat the Byzantines as their vasal state. They simply will not care enough to save the Byzantines so that Constantinople will eventually fall, just slightly later. A period will come, though, in which the people will identify themselves with the Hellenistic-Roman traditions and start lamenting the loss of Athens and Constantinople. The Emperor will be pressured to act since he, by now, is elected by the people. World War One will be a battle between the Holy Roman and the Scandinavian Empire (plus all their colonies) against the Russian, Britain and Ottoman sphere of influence.

The Empire will push towards the Black Sea once they are attacked by the Ottomans and in a long-lasting battle will be victorious during World War One. The Ottoman Empire will be dissolved. The Holy Roman Empire takes the Balkan Westcoast, OT Greek, the Western Part of Constantinople and the Hagia Sophia (which is all the people really cared about). The Bosporus will henceforth be the natural boarder between the Holy Roman Empire and the Turkish Empire. The Slavic tribes will be reorganized as the Yugoslavian Republic (including Bulgaria) and Romania will become independent (though both soon will become a Soviet puppet). The Scandinavian Empire will take Finland from Russia. Britain will lose some colonies to the Scandinavians.

World War 2

After winning the First World War, the Empire will flourish. However, having such close boarders to the Ottomans and Bolshevists does spark conflict. Christian Extremists burn down a Mosque in the Western half of Constantinople during the Muslim praying hours. In retaliation, Muslim Extremists kill a Christian priest and send his dead body across the Bosporus on Christmas. Many Christians flee to the Empire to avoid Bolshevist persecution. The rhetoric becomes more and more hateful. A crazy, but charismatic general who is dissatisfied with the war agreement, let’s call him Adolf I, rises to power by using a strong anti-Bolshevist rhetoric. He reaches the heart of the people by telling them of the supposed atrocities Bolshevists and Muslims have done to their Christian neighbors and that the persecution must stop. He is also antisemitic though and once elected he starts restructuring the state by installing his party friends as dukes and counts. He then slowly persecutes the Jews, and then prosecutes them, officially for working with Bolshevists. Adolf I enters the war by attacking and ‘liberating’ Saint Petersburg. The Bolshevists and the Turkish Empire, who are allied, retaliate. Scandinavia enters on the Empire’s behalf because Russia also threatens to annex Finland. During the war the rhetoric of Adolf I slowly shifts, and he starts using Jews, Muslims, and Bolshevists synonymously as the evil force they have to battle. Whether or not it is true or not, the people stopped questioning him and moved along. Concentration Camps are installed under the nose of the people. It is then that the Britain and the AFS enter the War on behalf of the Russian and Turkish Empire. At some point more and more people become aware of the atrocities Adolf I is committing. He is assassinated and everyone he appointed is depowered. The Empire enters negotiations for a weißer Friede, a peace treaty in which no party involved has any claims to the others. The allies accept, especially since all four, the Soviet Union, the Holy Roman Empire, Great Britain, and the AFS have nuclear weapons. The Holocaust isn’t as bad as in the OT but still has 500.000 Jewish victims and countless who had to flee. The Cold War still happens, with the AFS, the Holy Roman Empire, the Scandinavian Empire and Great Britain on the one and the Soviet Union, a Communist China, and the Turkish Empire on the other side (Romania and Yugoslavia are turned into vasal states of the Soviet Union). Since the Soviet Union has ended and the religious persecutions have stopped though, the relationships between the Empire and Russia have drastically improved.

The Church uses its authority to condemn what has happened (of course neglecting their own anti-Judaism). They become vocal about how Jews should be considered brothers, that they share the Old Testament, and that Jesus himself was a Jew. At universities, the persecution Jews had to live through within the Imperial boarders is reviewed. After a few years have passed, the guilt living within the culture grows continuously. For years, war was the only answer the Holy Romans knew to solve a problem. Thus, activism seems appropriate for lots of citizens. A Zionist party is founded by remaining Jews and soon many people support them out of guilt. They claim Israel and after the Christian-Conservative Party loses lots of their votes to the Zionist party, they agree to conquer Israel. They enter by ship and claim the territory of OT Israel as an exclave of the Empire. It is officially declared a Jewish territory. Christians can live there, though. All Muslims are forcefully expelled because somehow the public opinion will find it acceptable to discriminate Muslims in order to not discriminate Jews. The Emperor orders the construction of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount, not just to do penance for the Holocaust but also, as renovatio imperii, for the destruction committed by the Romans. From this day on, the Empire is hated in the Islamic world. Some see the Emperor of that time as a hero while others see him as a disaster. From this day on, Muslim extremists and terrorists target the Empire. Military actions have crushed the IS, but hatred for the humiliation continues.

Currently (2018 in this alternate timeline) Yugoslavia will partially be under Holy Roman Occupation after the massacres in Serbia. National-Conservatives and Christian-Conservatives will be continuously pushing towards an annexation, one to cultivate them, the other to christianize them. Whereas the left-winged parties will push the government to quit the occupation. The Empire is trying to find its peace with Muslims and Islam. One of the main topics is, how they should be treated, whether or not the Empire should feel guilty towards them, how terror can stop. The decision shaped the Zeitgeist and the Empire is now faced with a problem they cannot solve militarily.


Now I'm interested in your ideas. Did I miss anything or are any of my ideas implausible or inconsistent? If so feel free to tell me, this is a developing head canon and I'm always open to suggestions.
 
Beautifully done. But . . .

Its a little too convergent on OTL values for my suspension of disbelief.
 
Last edited:
Its a little too convergent on OTL values for my suspension of disbelief.
But also too divergent with people, nobles, kings, and the Emperor all seeming to have goals that aren't at cross purposes but in step and mutually beneficial. This is something that doesn't happen even today.
 
Beautifully done. But . . .

Its a little too convergent on OTL values for my suspension of disbelief.

Thank you so much for your input. I totally understand why you feel the way you feel. My though process was: "How much would this tweak actually change history?" And for the most part, I didn't see too many changes in terms of world history to happen, realistically. Since Britain remains independent, we still have the British Empire. Russia isn't effected because Constantinople still eventually falls, hence Orthodox Christianity will still shift towards the Russian Empire and their history will mostly be independent of the Holy Roman Empire. Muslims would still feel oppressed by the West due to Britain still conducting imperialism in Muslim territories, just that the main antagonist to them will be the Christian Empire. Though by reviewing it, I think I did factor in too little how a Turkish Empire might prevent Muslim extremist to raise in the same manner as in the OT. So that part I'll actually try to improve on, thank you!

But also too divergent with people, nobles, kings, and the Emperor all seeming to have goals that aren't at cross purposes but in step and mutually beneficial. This is something that doesn't happen even today.
Thank you so much, I value your thoughts a lot. I agree that reviewing my AT, things seem way too convenient at times. Though I want to add that I cut out most of the conflict and basically presented the compromises which had been struck in the long run, just to not make this scenario too long. But still, those are valuable thoughts and I'll keep them in mind when I return to work in this project.
 
I concur with @mrmandias, especially as your PoD and its immediate consequences aren't badly tought at all : in all honesty, I only spotted some secondary details such as giving Louis former Austrasia, or formalizing too much marches which tended to be more vaguely defined (for instance, the distinction between Toulouse/Gothia/Spain). The maintain of Carolingia as a dynastic system is plausible, especially as how you seem to manage kingship successions.

I'd say that, from the Xth onwards, you could trust yourself more to change things further, because the butterfly net is really damaging to something with a lot of potential IMO, and some developments would probably not appear as IOTL in the context of a Carolingian dynastic system (for exemple, the elective consideration in west Francia, or even the situation in England as the house of Wessex being IOTL considered as semi-Carolingian already and intervening in the mainland as such). How Carolingians would manage, from a relatively weak state structure but living on, to manage the crisis of the late IXth century (regionalism, aristocratic shattering, Viking/Sarcacenic/Hungarians, climatic changes, trade decline, etc.) would have a lot of consequences even if I tend to agree with you that some changes that happened IOTL would be impossible to ignore (especially the regional political shattering due to the rise of an increasingly independent aristocracy) to go a bit too wild.
 
Greetings!

This little gedankenexperiment will revolve around the question how the world today would look like if the Carolingian dynasty managed to keep the Frankish Empire together. The most interesting part about French and German history is how despite them evolving out of the same empire, the states couldn’t have developed more differently. Germany as a federal state, France as a central state; Germany as a ground force, France as a sea force; Germany as an elective monarchy, France as a hereditary monarchy. So in order to tackle this question we have to ask what the key factors were for these changes to have happened. And examining history, it seems as if the main difference was that Germany viewed itself as an Empire way before the French. The moment the aristocrats elected the first Emperor it was obvious that they saw themselves bound together instead of living on a land privately owned by the King of the respective territory. In France, I’d argue, this development took way more time and first was completed during the late 15th and early 16th century. In contrast to Germany, France wasn’t just federal but rather culturally divided between West and East and didn’t view itself as a unity. It was first when the Parisian Crown conquered these territories that French developed into a central state – something that never was necessary in Germany because all the houses accepted their status as a subject to the emperor. However, federalism in Germany developed rampantly and, at some point, the emperor only had theoretical rather than functional power. So, with all that in mind, let’s see how we can tweak history and what impact that would have on the world.

Political Development:

This alternate history scenario starts at the Battle of Fontenoy (841). It’s of utmost importance for Charles the Bold and Louis the German to survive and for emperor Lothair to win. If Charles and Louis should die, history only would repeat itself with Lothair’s three sons. At the Treaty of Verdun, Louis and Charles are forced to subject to Lothair and accept his hegemony as an emperor. In return, he allows Charles and Louis to continue ruling as a king, though their sphere of influence will be restricted to Neustria (Charles) and Austrasia (Louis). By keeping the titles as a king, both brothers keep their honor intact while Lothair establishes his supremacy. He allows Louis to install his sons as kings of Bavaria and Suebia, Pepin II is crowned king of Aquitaine and Lothairs own sons are granted kingdoms in Frisia (Lothair II), Langobardia (Louis II), and Provence (Charles I). Other duchies and counties such as Saxony, Septimania/Gothia, Cascony, Thuringia, the West March (Spanish March), and Spoleto are under the direct influence of Lothair. He appoints new leaders or allows their sons to precede, though they must always subject to him. At this point, the only real difference in power between the kings and the dukes and counts was that Lothair didn’t disempower them when he felt the need to. But he made sure to establish himself as the leader of all the kings. This is the period in which the Empire slowly shifted from viewing the king as their supreme leader to the emperor. By keeping their titles as King of Francia the regions of Neustria and Austrasia slowly become synonymous with Francia and thus will latter be known as West Francia and East Francia.

After Lothair’s death 855, his son Louis II succeeded him and while he started out fine, he slowly lost control due to his uncles plotting behind his back. Louis the German established an alliance with the Bulgarians and Moravians outside of his border, while Charles the Bold gave land to powerful nobles to gain allies. Louis II spend lots of time in Italy and thus, his uncles appointed dukes and counts themselves. Louis II lost control over the empire, but after his childless death 875 the nobles felt as if they needed a successor to rule the Empire. Louis the German expected the nobles to appoint him since he had the larger army and overall was considered a better leader. However, the nobles postponed the decision and called in a vote. All kings automatically ran for election. These elections were held in private (though some historians might find some original voting documents buried in a monastery) and the nobles presented the decision as uniformly. Charles the Bold was voted for Emperor due to him having made more allies in the Empire than Louis the German. The later didn’t accept the results, armed himself, but died before he could launch an attack. Charles dies a year after. He’s succeeded by Louis the German’s sons Louis III (877-882) and Charles III (882-888). Charles III is the last emperor to unite several landmasses under one banner (he controlled Bavaria, Suebia, East Francia, and West Francia). In order to gain the support of a majority of the nobles, Arnulf of Carinthia promises to keep the territorial identity of all duchies and counties intact and only appoint new leaders. This helps him win the election. However, after Charles III death several people have claimed the title of a king within the empire. In order to tackle the issue, Arnulf and the nobles come up with a plan to administratively share the power between all five kings: A West realm (around Aquitaine), a North realm (around West Francia), a Middle realm (around Lotharingia and Burgundy), an East realm (around East Francia, Suebia and Bavaria), and Italy. Every realm should have the same amount of duchies and counties. However, those were not separate kingdoms, only administrative divisions and all the nobles in any given realm could install their king independently. This gave the individual noble more power and made them accept the terms. Despite Charles IV not participating the plan takes place. The North and West realm are united shortly after. Arnulf of Carinthia dies 899, Louis IV is elected new emperor, until he’s blinded 906. Charles IV is voted new emperor and dies 929, the King of the Middle Realm Rudolf unites the Middle realm with the West realm. By the time of Otto the Great two equally sized realms exist (West and East) while Italy is slightly smaller. So far, this is similar to the OT. However, the Western and Eastern part of the empire have not broken apart. Otto the Great meets with Hugo and they strike a deal: Hugo accepts the supremacy of the emperor and also that the Eastern kings will be granted that title (since he controlled more of the nobles by this point). Otto in return grants Hugo autonomy. As long as the emperor does not oppose him, the Western king can rule as he pleases. Though both must meet occasionally and talk about the maters of the empire. The Eastern king thus becomes somewhat of a vice emperor. In order to signal that these aren’t independent empires they call themselves King of the People and not King of the Realm. Otto, who himself was of Saxon heritage, allows Hugo to solely hold the title King of the Franks while he himself holds the title King of the Teutons. The Italian king holds the title King of the Italians. Wording was very important to signal ruling hierarchy and thus was applied here.

What has changed?

So, we are now looking at a situation in which the Frankish Empire (now also called the Holy Roman Empire) is a federal empire which operates under the principle of subsidiarity. First comes the Emperor, then the three kings, then the duchies and counties, and then the countless smaller counties within the duchies and counties. The emperor is elected by the nobles, he himself installs the nobles. The other two kings are more of a representative of all the nobles and people in any given area. One, to gain their acceptance and second, to communicate problems directly to the emperor.

Cultural development

These changes will, in the long run, prevent regional identities from vanishing. Similar to the Roman Empire, the people will keep their regional traditions and languages while also developing a Christian-Roman identity. They will see themselves as citizens of the renovatio imperii, of the one and only last empire of the world. They will feel bound through their faith and a collective sharing of philosophical traditions. Charles the Great will be worshiped as the Father of the Empire. The influence of the Roman-Catholic Church will create similar traditions throughout the empire most people share. Later, the people will rediscover Cicero and the idea of them being the fathers and mothers of Republic traditions and mindsets will unite them even further. A shared language will emerge, though it will take some time. Languages will develop along regional traditions. It will first be when printing emerges that language will be an issue and similar to how High German evolved around Martin Luther, probably a bible translation would be a starting point for a joint language. It’s difficult to say though what language that would be. Most likely a hybrid language such as English would be created. The Frankish nobles in OT France would continue speaking their Frankish dialogue for some time since they are still connected to the Emperor. Though it is possible that French will also be spoken in the German speaking regions, similar to how Prussian king Frederick the Great only used French at his court. I think both scenarios are more likely than German becoming the dominant language in the West. However, I’m almost certain the kings will prefer a regional language for their realm which will be taught alongside the Imperial language at school. A Spanish language in Spain, a French language in France, a German language in Germany, a Slavic language in the East and an Italian language in Italy. Not too much different than what happened in the OT, just that a Slavic language will emerge. By 2018, every citizen will be raised in three languages (Imperial language, Realm language, regional language), similar to OT Switzerland.

The large amount of people and fertile lands within the Imperial boarder will allow the Emperor to command a large army. Undoubtedly, the Holy Roman Army will be the strongest army within Europe, by far. The Emperor will not just have his standing army but also the local armies of the dukes he can call upon if needed. The Empire will not be able to use that for their advantage though. They will conquer territories in the East but the army cannot help in integrating and assimilating the people of said land. Since the Emperor mostly identifies himself through war victories, the Empire will be in constant war on its boarders. Who doesn’t join the army will either be farmer or employed by the local dukes and counts. So the army will be the only successful way for the Emperor to communicate directly to his subjects. This will have a serious drawback though: the Empire will be extremely week to sea and having a large costal boarder will make it an open invitation for foreign invaders to plunder the villages. The army will use lots of its time fighting of foreign invaders, which is great for the Emperor since he can communicate to the people that he is willing to protect them but bad for the economy of the Empire which stagnates. Due to the war centric nature of the Empire and federalism having a negative impact on it, the economy develops even less than in the OT. The local nobles mostly just collect the fee of the Imperial subjects and live a relaxed life. Hardly any competition exists between the territories and thus, advancement is almost nonexistent. This goes on even longer than in the OT since the Reformation hardly has an impact on the Empire and thus the many Catholic and Protestant universities and the reigniting education never happens. Also, since the Fall of Constantinople is postponed by the Holy Roman Soldiers helping out, the Renaissance does not occur during the 15th century.

It is first during the late 16th and early 17th century that the Imperial subjects come into contact to the Chinese. Their culture sparks fascination throughout the Empire. Of course, they do not disband Christianity but start conducting science as a way to explore the wonder of Gods creations. They conduct astronomy, arithmetic, physics, art, and history. They rediscover their Roman-Hellenistic traditions. Universities are founded throughout the land, Latin is taught, Cicero and Plato return in the collective mindset and with them their idea of a Republican state. It’s a similar situation to how the Romans were a strong military force but built their entire culture around the Hellenistic lifestyle. The Empire now develops rapidly, creating roads and becoming more mobile in order to visit the places they read about. More young people visit schools and learn to read since the Catholic church offers schools for free. Tight relationships are held to the Chinese Empire. The Emperor addresses the Qing Emperor with Brother and considers him as equal – something even the Byzantine Emperor was not granted. The Empire tries to mirror the Chinese education as closely as possible. This is the Renaissance of the Empire.

It was first then that federalism was a true bless to the Empire. The contest between all the duchies and counties led to many new technical advantages due to the vast amount of resources and materials within the Imperial border. Due to the large domestic market, resources could be transported easily and everyone could profit from the new innovations. More and more roads were built to transport the materials and the finished products. By the beginning of the 20th Century the Empire has developed into a Superpower and until this day it is the most militarily advanced and has the greatest economy of the World. Since all regions developed similarly there is now disparity between East and West. In recent years though, the Economy grew lesser and lesser. Experts see the large amount of state-run companies as the main reason. The Holy Roman Empire had always rejected the Anglo-Saxon idea of a completely liberal market and tried to regulate as much as possible. The United States equivalent and China are closing the gap though which is why privatizing programs have been started. Left-winged parties regularly hold demonstrations against this development.

1848 the Empire will have its first national parliament. 1912 the duchies and counties will withdraw their right to vote the Emperor and allow the people to vote him in a four-year-schedule. Coronations in Rome by the Pope are always a giant TV-spectacle.

Religious development

Religion will be an important factor in the development of the Empire and in the identity of the Imperial Citizens. Catholicism won’t just be considered a religion, it will encapsulate a certain lifestyle, a commitment to a certain set of values, and a pledge to the inheritance of philosophical traditions. Even in 2018 of the AT, 97% of the citizens still consider themselves Catholic Christians. Even if they might reject the idea of a God and don’t visit mass anymore, they identify themselves with the philosophical background and the set of values it provides. 1,6% of Muslims live in the Empire, mostly in the East, and 0,9% Jews. 0,4% consider themselves Atheists which is looked upon with disgrace in the Empire. Often those people are insulted as Anarchists, Antidemocrats, and Bolshevists.

Most Popes throughout history accepted the voted Emperor and crowned him, although they insisted that prior to the coronation they are only elected as a candidate for emperor. It’s not as if they would have been too picky in the OT anyway and if, the Emperors mostly installed a Pope in their favor. Since the 8th Century the Empire and the Pope administrated the Patriarchate of Picenia (the region around Ravenna) joint, the Pope installed the Archbishop as leader while the Emperor protected it and thus could consider it part of his Empire. Though it took until the 19th Century before Rome reunited with the Empire. The Pope remains the lifelong elected leader of the Patriarchate Latium, thus him being the only ruler in the Empire who cannot be removed from office. Though he had to consent to let all people of the Patriarchate vote for him.

The Reformation still happened though it was way less impactful. Basically, the amount of Protestants were too small and the Catholic hegemony too strong for a Schism to occur. At the Council of Trent (1545-1563) the Protestants got enough concessions to return to the Catholic Church: local language was allowed during liturgy of the Word, but not during Communion. Females were allowed as deacons again. Sola gratia and Solus Christus was canonized while the importance of the Bible was emphasized without abandoning tradition completely. Sola Fide was not canonized but the importance of doing penance by oneself was highlighted. This, in the long run, kept modern ideas within the Catholic Church. Basically, being the state religion of the Holy Roman Empire at this point, the Church naturally developed with the zeitgeist of the Empire. This caused the Catholic Church to evolve alongside the Imperial Renaissance after encountering China and thus, prevented it from turning archaic or out of touch with the believers. 1993 they eventually allowed women to be anointed. The Scandinavian Empire in the North took the ideas of Calvin further though and founded their own Protestant Church 1573, highlighting the differences by abandoning vestments, anointing women and cutting their ties to the Pope who was considered an ally of the rivaled Empire.

The East–West Schism was disbanded in the early 20th Century. The Eastern-Orthodox Church was either in the hands of the anti-religious Bolshevists or the Muslim Ottomans. The Patriarch of Constantinople sought the help of the Pope and after a long Council (1921-1938) the Schism was lifted and Constantinople and the Mount Athos became holy places of Catholic Christianity as well.

During the development of the Empire, eleven other Roman-Catholic Patriarchs were installed, matching the number of Apostles. Prior to being installed they had to be consecrated by the Pope to be in the Apostolic succession. Those 12 Patriarchs are in: Barcelona, Rome, Constantinople, Jerusalem, Colonia, Tours, Bethlehem, Heiligelinde, Milan, Venice, Königsberg, and the Mount Athos. The Twelve have an important role as a voice of moral and ethics and are respected within the Empire. After WW2 they hold occasional meetings to issue a judgement regarding political decisions or social questions, the CEM (Council of Ethics and Moral). Despite only the Pope having secular power and him being the head of the Patriarchs, their voices matter equally. Politicians are often criticized for ignoring their advice. 2005, for example, the Twelve condemned the Iraq War and proposed a peaceful solution. Since 1993 women are allowed the become a Matriarch, though until now only one of the twelve is a woman which is often criticized in media and talk shows as the Council of Elderly Men.

Territorial development

The Empire will mostly grow towards the East, though slowly. The Carolingians mostly weren’t interested in confronting large powers but rather conquering unorganized tribes. It always took some time cultivating and assimilating them into their society, though. After Charles the Great it took around 50 years for the Saxons to assimilate, Henry I then sought to move the boarder slightly more to the East. I believe the Holy Roman Emperors would maintain this practice, especially since most of them will be kings of the Eastern realm. Since the local dukes and counts took care of organizational matters and administrative duties, the Emperors had to earn respect by either successfully defending the Empire or being victorious in battle. They would lead the Imperial army. Every duke had their own private army, which the emperor could call upon in time of needs. The kings had to form their army by recruiting soldiers of the dukes. In a new constitution signed in the 17th century, it was declared forbidden for an Imperial soldier to fight against another Imperial soldier.

In the long run, the Empire will expand towards the East, most likely into the territory controlled by the Teutonic Order in OT and assimilate them. Poland will not be conquered since by the time the Holy Romans reach the area it will already be organized and have a king accepted by the Pope. Similar to Bohemia and Moravia though, they will, at some point, subject to the Emperor, most likely because of Russia. The unorganized Slavic tribes might assimilate into German culture and language. The former Teutonic Order regions will most likely be German up to OT Estonia. The regions around OT Poland, Bellarus, Bohemia, Moravia, Croatia, and Silesia will keep their Slavic identity though and in the 19th Century will be granted an own realm in the Eastern part of the Empire, either under Bohemian or Polish supremacy (though Prague will be the capital).

The Balkans will only partially be conquered. During the 11th Century, the Byzantines will defeat the Bulgarian Empire. It is then that they will launch a coordinated attack to take over Croatia: the Holy Roman Empire will take the inner part, whereas the Byzantines will take the part around Dalmatia. This will preserve the Dalmatian culture and language to survive. The Croats will take a similar role within the Empire as Bohemia did, having their own duke with the title King in Croatia. Denmark will eventually be conquered. Though it will take almost 150 years, until the Empire can take full control over the territories. The terrain is hard to navigate through for land soldiers and the sea supremacy of the Danes will cause the Empire lots of trouble. Hence, why they will never conquer Great Britain or Scandinavia. Next to the Holy Roman Empire, the Scandinavian Empire will develop as a strong rival and be the equivalent of what the Persians were to the Romans: two super Empires who are just in constant war with each other. The Thirty Years' War won’t be as much an inner German conflict as a conflict of the superpowers who can’t defeat each other because the Holy Roman Empire is way stronger by land whereas the Scandinavian Empire is way stronger by sea.

The Reconquista will still happen, but not at a faster pace. As aforementioned, the Empire wasn’t interested in long lasting conflicts against other strong empires. In fact, they would first act after the Muslim’s attack the Gascony around 920. Emperor Charles IV would push the Muslim forces back and the nobles of the Christian territories would subject to him (except Asturias which joins later by marriage). He would then become obsessed with the idea of conquering territory in the West and would try to push the Muslims back to the Lake Ebro to create a natural boarder. But he would terribly underestimate the Muslims, lose 20.000 men and will only be able to secure the boarders because of Henry’s reinforcements. It will then take some time until the West March (Spanish March) develops into Aragon. The respected leader will be named the forth king of the Empire, King of the Iberians. Thus, he will feel the need to expand into the entire Iberian Peninsula whereas the Emperors didn’t see any need to. After the Reconquista is completed, Muslims and Jews will have it slightly better. The Jews will be allowed to remain there since the Empire already has Jewish protection laws (against a few, of course) and the converted Muslims aren’t treated inferior to the old Catholics. Only those who remain Muslims must leave the Empire towards Morocco. The regional identities in OT Spain will remain and the King of the Iberians won’t oppress those identities. Thus, the Basque and Catalonian independence campaigns will be a lot smaller and only carried on by extremist groups.

North Africa will not be affected by the changes. The rest of Africa will most likely have less Christians and more Muslims since the Europeans don’t have the same incentive to expand beyond their boarders as in the OT. Being mostly independent in terms of resources and not having the same fear from Muslim invasions, Christianity will hardly be represented in Africa, excluding the around 12% of old Coptic Christians in Egypt.

Britain is never conquered. There is no scenario in which the Emperor would set of to Britain. He would have to continuously travel to Britain to remain control and I don’t see that happening. However, the Normans might still conquer it, but the Norman Empire won’t exist due to the Emperor remaining control over the Normandy.

The Crusades remain mostly the same. Instead of sending a bunch of farmers and landless lords though, the Emperors will send proper soldiers which will help the Byzantines in reconquering Jerusalem for their own Empire, though it will never last long. Some Emperors will fight on the forefront in hopping to gain glory.

Colonization is changed drastically. The Empire never has the same strive to find new places oversea to expand to. Hence, the first people to canonically find America are the Scandinavians, who colonize it via the Greenland route. Some duchies and counts to colonize parts of the world, since colonizing them means that they can expand their sphere of influence outside of the Empire without interfering with the Emperor. New Aquitaine, New Aragon, New Britany, and New Portugal are founded in South America. For the most part though, the Brits and Scandinavians are involved: Britain colonizes Canada, whereas the Scandinavian settlers found the AFS (Amerikas förenta state), a super state including Mexico and parts of the Caribbean. The only territories that officially belong to the Holy Roman Empire are some scattered Caribbean islands (which they can use for vacation, I guess).

World War 1

The rest of the Balkans will still be under Ottoman control. The Empire will only save Byzantium when Constantinople is almost fallen 1453. They will then treat the Byzantines as their vasal state. They simply will not care enough to save the Byzantines so that Constantinople will eventually fall, just slightly later. A period will come, though, in which the people will identify themselves with the Hellenistic-Roman traditions and start lamenting the loss of Athens and Constantinople. The Emperor will be pressured to act since he, by now, is elected by the people. World War One will be a battle between the Holy Roman and the Scandinavian Empire (plus all their colonies) against the Russian, Britain and Ottoman sphere of influence.

The Empire will push towards the Black Sea once they are attacked by the Ottomans and in a long-lasting battle will be victorious during World War One. The Ottoman Empire will be dissolved. The Holy Roman Empire takes the Balkan Westcoast, OT Greek, the Western Part of Constantinople and the Hagia Sophia (which is all the people really cared about). The Bosporus will henceforth be the natural boarder between the Holy Roman Empire and the Turkish Empire. The Slavic tribes will be reorganized as the Yugoslavian Republic (including Bulgaria) and Romania will become independent (though both soon will become a Soviet puppet). The Scandinavian Empire will take Finland from Russia. Britain will lose some colonies to the Scandinavians.

World War 2

After winning the First World War, the Empire will flourish. However, having such close boarders to the Ottomans and Bolshevists does spark conflict. Christian Extremists burn down a Mosque in the Western half of Constantinople during the Muslim praying hours. In retaliation, Muslim Extremists kill a Christian priest and send his dead body across the Bosporus on Christmas. Many Christians flee to the Empire to avoid Bolshevist persecution. The rhetoric becomes more and more hateful. A crazy, but charismatic general who is dissatisfied with the war agreement, let’s call him Adolf I, rises to power by using a strong anti-Bolshevist rhetoric. He reaches the heart of the people by telling them of the supposed atrocities Bolshevists and Muslims have done to their Christian neighbors and that the persecution must stop. He is also antisemitic though and once elected he starts restructuring the state by installing his party friends as dukes and counts. He then slowly persecutes the Jews, and then prosecutes them, officially for working with Bolshevists. Adolf I enters the war by attacking and ‘liberating’ Saint Petersburg. The Bolshevists and the Turkish Empire, who are allied, retaliate. Scandinavia enters on the Empire’s behalf because Russia also threatens to annex Finland. During the war the rhetoric of Adolf I slowly shifts, and he starts using Jews, Muslims, and Bolshevists synonymously as the evil force they have to battle. Whether or not it is true or not, the people stopped questioning him and moved along. Concentration Camps are installed under the nose of the people. It is then that the Britain and the AFS enter the War on behalf of the Russian and Turkish Empire. At some point more and more people become aware of the atrocities Adolf I is committing. He is assassinated and everyone he appointed is depowered. The Empire enters negotiations for a weißer Friede, a peace treaty in which no party involved has any claims to the others. The allies accept, especially since all four, the Soviet Union, the Holy Roman Empire, Great Britain, and the AFS have nuclear weapons. The Holocaust isn’t as bad as in the OT but still has 500.000 Jewish victims and countless who had to flee. The Cold War still happens, with the AFS, the Holy Roman Empire, the Scandinavian Empire and Great Britain on the one and the Soviet Union, a Communist China, and the Turkish Empire on the other side (Romania and Yugoslavia are turned into vasal states of the Soviet Union). Since the Soviet Union has ended and the religious persecutions have stopped though, the relationships between the Empire and Russia have drastically improved.

The Church uses its authority to condemn what has happened (of course neglecting their own anti-Judaism). They become vocal about how Jews should be considered brothers, that they share the Old Testament, and that Jesus himself was a Jew. At universities, the persecution Jews had to live through within the Imperial boarders is reviewed. After a few years have passed, the guilt living within the culture grows continuously. For years, war was the only answer the Holy Romans knew to solve a problem. Thus, activism seems appropriate for lots of citizens. A Zionist party is founded by remaining Jews and soon many people support them out of guilt. They claim Israel and after the Christian-Conservative Party loses lots of their votes to the Zionist party, they agree to conquer Israel. They enter by ship and claim the territory of OT Israel as an exclave of the Empire. It is officially declared a Jewish territory. Christians can live there, though. All Muslims are forcefully expelled because somehow the public opinion will find it acceptable to discriminate Muslims in order to not discriminate Jews. The Emperor orders the construction of the Third Temple on the Temple Mount, not just to do penance for the Holocaust but also, as renovatio imperii, for the destruction committed by the Romans. From this day on, the Empire is hated in the Islamic world. Some see the Emperor of that time as a hero while others see him as a disaster. From this day on, Muslim extremists and terrorists target the Empire. Military actions have crushed the IS, but hatred for the humiliation continues.

Currently (2018 in this alternate timeline) Yugoslavia will partially be under Holy Roman Occupation after the massacres in Serbia. National-Conservatives and Christian-Conservatives will be continuously pushing towards an annexation, one to cultivate them, the other to christianize them. Whereas the left-winged parties will push the government to quit the occupation. The Empire is trying to find its peace with Muslims and Islam. One of the main topics is, how they should be treated, whether or not the Empire should feel guilty towards them, how terror can stop. The decision shaped the Zeitgeist and the Empire is now faced with a problem they cannot solve militarily.


Now I'm interested in your ideas. Did I miss anything or are any of my ideas implausible or inconsistent? If so feel free to tell me, this is a developing head canon and I'm always open to suggestions.
This was wonderfully written and thought out... although you may have exterminated the world’s entire butterfly population. I wonder if this ATL HRE would act similarly to OTL’s Chinese Empire, collecting taxes/tribute from surrounding areas like the British Isles and Eastern Europe.
 
I concur with @mrmandias, especially as your PoD and its immediate consequences aren't badly tought at all : in all honesty, I only spotted some secondary details such as giving Louis former Austrasia, or formalizing too much marches which tended to be more vaguely defined (for instance, the distinction between Toulouse/Gothia/Spain). The maintain of Carolingia as a dynastic system is plausible, especially as how you seem to manage kingship successions.

I'd say that, from the Xth onwards, you could trust yourself more to change things further, because the butterfly net is really damaging to something with a lot of potential IMO, and some developments would probably not appear as IOTL in the context of a Carolingian dynastic system (for exemple, the elective consideration in west Francia, or even the situation in England as the house of Wessex being IOTL considered as semi-Carolingian already and intervening in the mainland as such). How Carolingians would manage, from a relatively weak state structure but living on, to manage the crisis of the late IXth century (regionalism, aristocratic shattering, Viking/Sarcacenic/Hungarians, climatic changes, trade decline, etc.) would have a lot of consequences even if I tend to agree with you that some changes that happened IOTL would be impossible to ignore (especially the regional political shattering due to the rise of an increasingly independent aristocracy) to go a bit too wild.

Those are very valuable thought, thank you so much! I think your pretty spot on with your observation. I'm creating this timeline with a big goal in mind and have a rough idea of where I wild end up (which I emphasized here). However, in order to tweak this as good as possible I'm going through history year by year and try to imagine how my AT would carry on and what influence it would have on the surrounding. And currently, I've only reached the 940's in this tweaking process. So your assertion is correct. I'm thankful though that I'm not that far yet because your suggestions gave me many things to think about and consider during my walk through the 10th century!

This was wonderfully written and thought out... although you may have exterminated the world’s entire butterfly population. I wonder if this ATL HRE would act similarly to OTL’s Chinese Empire, collecting taxes/tribute from surrounding areas like the British Isles and Eastern Europe.

Thank you so much! Indeed, I have really ignored population growth and how this would effect the Empire. The 30 Year's War would be far less devastating for most of the battles will happen in the coastal areas around the Baltic and North Sea. Also, I ignored the Plague and how it would affect the Empire - possible even worse than in the OT since the disease would spread out throughout the entire Empire and with them being even less advanced than in OT, this could mean a 70-80% Death Rate in almost all of Western and most of Eastern Europe...I really have to reflect on that!

This is a very interesting question! I'd say that the Carolingians would indeed collect a tribute from the British Isles as long as the king's of Wessex are installed. Since I don't see them maintaining power for the long (either the Normans will attack them or, if they assimilate into the Empire to such an extent that they won't set of, the Danes/Norwegians at some point will most certainly conquer them). In the aftermath there will be a war similar to the Hundred Years' War in which the British Islands will fight the Empire to escape their sphere of influence. It will be less an actual war and more a series of tiny conflicts between both parties. In the end, the Empire will agree to revoke all his claims from Britain and this will actually be celebrated as their Day of Independence and will give them the self confidence they'll need to succeed as the British Empire. As for Eastern Europe, I think it depends which parts were looking at. The surrounding tribes which are not conquered yet but are somewhat organized will have to pay tribute to the Emperor. By those who were crowned by the Pope (e.g. Poland, Hungary and Venice, despite not having a king) this would be more difficult. Because in the mindset of the people the Pope was the suzerain of their respected kingdom. Now it's possible that during the investiture dispute the Emperor would be more powerful in the AT. Honestly though, if anything both, the Emperor and the Pope, will be more powerful in my AT. Since the electoral system has been established for some time the Pope will have an easier time removing the Emperor by convincing the nobles. I hence see the Catholic Church collecting some community tax, probably through the Emperor. But at least for the crowned kingdoms I don't think the Emperor could collect tributes without the support or at least the mandate of the Pope. Thank you for this interesting question, though.
 
The likeliest possibility OTL HRE but expanded with France. Chances of Civil War are high as the French and Germans are even in power. The French backed candidate vs German backed will be the main reason.

Odds are there are 500 states in Germany, France, Benelux, Switzerland, Austria, Italy, Czechia and Slovenia by 1400.
 
Once the Empire has split, it's hard to see how to keep it together.

I think a better PoD might be to have Charlemagne declare that an empire is a different thing entirely from a (Frankish) kingdom, and that the throne passes to one and only one heir. Now, you could have younger sons inheriting sub-kingdoms, and those might split further. That would actually strengthen the central state, if the subsidiary kingdoms fragment and lose relative power.

If THAT were the case, then Latin no doubt stays the language of the court and administration, and 'French' takes rather longer to be recognized as more than really, really bad Latin.

OTL, it was the Serment de Strassbourg that was the first 'official' acknowledgement of French, and that was, in good part, because the 'French' emperor wanted to distinguish his state from the others.
 
Last edited:
Once the Empire has split, it's hard to see how to keep it together.

I think a better PoD might be to have Charlemagne declare that an empire is a different thing entirely from a (Frankish) kingdom, and that the throne passes to one and only one heir. Now, you could have younger sons inheriting sub-kingdoms, and those might split further. That would actually strengthen the central state, if the subsidiary kingdoms fragment and lose relative power.

If THAT were the case, then Latin no doubt stays the language of the court and administration, and 'French' takes rather longer to be recognized as more than really, really bad Latin.

OTL, it was the Serment de Strassbourg that was the first 'official' acknowledgement of French, and that was, in good part, because the 'French' emperor wanted to distinguish his state from the others.

Thank you for your input! I believe the Serment de Strassbourg referd to Old French as a "lingua Romana" which can either mean "Roman language" or just "Roman dialect" so it's unclear if this was a real acknowledgment. Even in the 17th Century it, in parts of modern day France, was considered the language of the Parisian Crown rather than a universal language.

I see where you're coming from with Charles the Great but then I had to change his mindset, which I wanted to avoid. Despite being Emperor, he didn't feel differently about the line of succession and would have split his Empire if he would have more than one remaining son. Which is why I personally think a natural shift in the mindest of the people happening due to one brother just wanting superiority over the others (which was also the case in OT) is a more consistent and satisfying outcome.
 
Top