Go North, Young Man: The Great Canada

[Ming777]

Also wanted to kick this in - this Canada has been leaning heavily into American (Tomcat, Phantom II, Super Hornet, Aardvark) and European (Tornado, Typhoon) fighter and attack aircraft, and I had two questions on this front to kick in for opinions:

1) The RCAF's Tomcats are by the 2000s getting long in the tooth, and as I am anticipating Canada being part of the Eurofighter program that the RCAF would be an operator of the Typhoon. But I also want Canada to be an operator of the F-22 Raptor, and I would imagine that with the USAF's F-15 fleet facing the same problems as Canada's CF-14s, America's security commitments to Israel as part of the Ottawa Treaty and allies looking at new fighters themselves that Canada, Britain, Australia and Israel would be operators of the F-22, and that the Typhoon would be the RCAF's primary multi-role fighter while the Raptor was the air superiority weapon.

2) Canada and Britain would be part of the Eurofighter project, but would also seek (along with at least Israel and Australia) to make a replacement for the F-111, creating the stealthy strike aircraft of the future. A fairly large airframe, two seats, two engines, internal weapons bay, electronics, radar and avionics for flying deep strike missions. Massive range, meant for fast-and-low attack operations, meant to replace the Avro Vulcan and Handley-Page Victor bombers of the RAF and RCAF, everyone's F-111s and Israel's longer-ranged F-16s. Feasible?

I'm guessing this plane might be the F-111 replacement?

CF-190 Crossbow

 

[TheMann]

I'm guessing this plane might be the F-111 replacement?

Yes, that was my idea. The reason I wasn't so sure about it here was A) would the RAF, RAAF and IAF also get involved in a Canadian-led Commonwealth stealth strike aircraft proposal and B) it was something of a technical prove-we-can-do-this project in the Canadian Power universe, but here Canada's aerospace industry is one of the world's largest, so they don't really have to prove anything here.

This would be a very, very good replacement for the F-111s and the bombers, and be a particular geopolitical benefit for Australia (them and their neighbors haven't always gotten along, but my projected Typhoon/Rafale/Super Hornet-Raptor-Crossbow RAAF fighter/attack force would be as dangerous as any on Earth and would be a powerful deterrent to any potential rivals), but is big bucks to do. On the other hand, it would be a good way to work on improvements for the Commonwealth, and when equipped with Commonwealth avionics and RR-Orenda engines, would be completely independent of the Americans....

 

[Some Bloke]

Probably a bit bulky for a carrier, hence the continued reliance on American types for the Navy.

Do you suppose Commonwealth know how could fix the Lighting ITTL?

 

[TheMann]

Probably a bit bulky for a carrier, hence the continued reliance on American types for the Navy.

Here, the Tornado was designed from day one for both the Germans' desire for the ability to operate off of autobahns and other unprepared runways and the fact that Canada and the UK needed to be able to operate the Tornado off of aircraft carriers, and here the Tornado is the attack and strike plane for the RCN, with the Tomcat handling air superiority duties and the Super Hornet for multi-role operations. RN and RCN Tornados use the ADV variant airframe and substantially upgraded engines to improve its carrier capability. So, not entirely American, but its a nitpick point.

Do you suppose Commonwealth know how could fix the Lighting ITTL?

The F-35, you mean? I've thought about that, and was thinking that the F-35 would in this world use mostly-similar electronics to the F-22 for cost and development reasons.

If the Commonwealth does get involved, RR-Orenda would build the LiftFan system for it, and that the Commonwealth F-35s would use F-35C wings and landing gear, RR-Orenda engines (while American ones would use Pratt and Whitney as OTL) of somewhat more power and that the LiftFan system would have a bit more power, to allow better STOVL capabilities despite the larger wings. With British and Canuck carriers using larger airplanes in the Tomcat and Tornado, room for the bigger-wing F-35 is not a concern, and the larger wings give the F-35C variant better control at low speeds.

 

[M. A. Dickens]

My thoughts...

RCAF
- Raptors (air superiority)
- Typhoons (multirole)
- Crossbows (strike)

RCN
- Typhoons (multirole)
- Super Hornets (air superiority/strike)

Did not mention the Lightning II because fuck that bloated overbudget pile of wreck.

Marc A

 

[riggerrob]

[QUOTE= ......... carriers, and here the Tornado is the attack and strike plane for the RCN, with the Tomcat handling air superiority duties and the Super Hornet for multi-role operations. .......
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Not quite clear on the concept .......
The primary reason for buying multi-role Hormets is the reduce the numbers of different airframes on deck.
One common airframe means only one lot of spare parts, one pilot-training scheme, one set of mechanics, one type of catapult, one parking scheme, ...... When lightly-loaded, MR airplanes make pretty good interceptors and when all bombed-up, they have heavy wing-loadings for smoother flight nape of the earth.

 

[phx1138]

Social Credit

This was a good thing? And not the CCF?

Operations Husky, Overlord and Iceberg

Canadians at Okinawa? Not sure they'd be needed, or, indeed, welcome.

Avro Arrow

I presume this means no BOMARC?

the Rupert's Land territories controlled by the Hudson's Bay Company

Not sold to HMG, or *Ottawa, sooner, thanks to changes in attitude? (Recall, HBC was trying to dump the territory for a song or two at the time...)

American purchase of Alaska

And the subsequent BC border dispute... Does it go in Canada's favor, this time? (Yeah, I know, fat chance.) No Alaska Panhandle, if so (for those who don't know; I'm presuming TheMann does); also fewer disputes over salmon.

With a larger Canada, can I presume the Rideau Canal gets built sooner? Bigger? Can the OTL St Lawrence Seaway be built earlier as an all-Canadian project on an all-Canadian route?

Such was population growth that Alberta and Saskatchewan became Canada's eighth and ninth provinces in 1894.

Given the greater distribution into Central AB/SK, did you consider dividing into 4 (including Assiniboia & whatever the other option was)? (I know, a bit late for a retcon now...)

Canada buying three protected cruisers from the Royal Navy, with the cruisers first entering service as Canadian vessels in 1899

That suggests, by *WW2 (presuming it still happens more/less on OTL schedule), RCN will be significantly better trained & equipped, & so much better able to defend convoys. This, plus better Canadian industry, implies much lower losses & (thus, probably) a shorter war. (Locally-built *VLRs out of NF from the outset? {Nightmares for U-boats.} Repair/refit port in NF? Locally-built corvettes, or DDs, with locally-built centimetric radars & *Squid? {Personally, I think domestic BBs are a stretch, but DDs & subs, sure.})

On the issue of subs, postwar, what do you say about Canadian-built RCN (export?) *GUPPy boats? (IMO,) (Nukes may be a stretch...)

Native Brotherhood felt that if the Whites could suppress the power of Asian Canadians that they would be the next ones the bigots went after.

I find myself dubious. Irish & other immigrants to the U.S. were frequently the most racist, because they were bottom of the economic ladder (as Native Canadians would be), & so most threatened by blacks potentially taking jobs at lower wages, which Chinese immigrants were almost certain to...

he Canadian volunteers in South Africa proved more than a little effective...call for an all-Canadian Army, loyal to the Empire but created to serve Canada.

Is it too early for them to be running into trouble with the belief that militias could take the place of a permanent force? OTL, that persisted well into the 1920s...& did the quality of training of officers & men no good at all.

development of the first time-on-target system

Am I understanding this is equivalent of the OTL AUS system, allowing multiple battery fires & EZ switching between targets? (If so,)

used the latter on aircraft

Any manufacturing of same in Canada for the duration? Or, like the U.S., do local a/c arrive too late, due starting production too late?

thousands of Ross rifles being rebuilt as Huot-Ross automatic rifles.

Tho I do like the idea, I'm wondering why so many ("surplus") Ross rifles are available...

The Canadians also used the tanks as breakthrough weapons

Given to Canadian cav? (I don't recall which it was, but IIRC, there was at least one cav outfit sent over.) This does risk foolish over-extension, calling the value of armor into question...

I'm a bit dubious about the use of treaded tractors in Canada, myself; I'm picturing large steam tractors being the standard, perhaps footed wheels, but not treaded.

I'm also wondering what motivates the Brits/Allies to accelerate development of tanks.

Sopwith Pup and Nieuport 17 fighters armed with multiple Vickers machine guns in a ground-attack role

Am I wrong thinking there would've been dedicated "strafer" types in service by then, so no need to impress Pups & 17s? (Maybe I'm thinking of the Halberstadts.)

Japan's racial equality proposal - Borden .... backed the proposal... this was to prove a major problem for the world in the future.

Problem? I'm seeing this helping avoid problems leading to the Pacific War, not least Japan building a fleet she can't afford & denouncing the Washington Treaty. Would it mean she accepts the 60% ratio? IDK, but it might make her more amenable.

RCN primarily spent the war as convoy escorters.

Considering how few merchant convoys there were, that seems a bit trivial. Or do you mean for troopships in the Med & elsewhere? (Do they therefore replace IJN forces? Any butterflies there?)

In ref ag production for WW1, I'm wondering if this doesn't worsen the Dust Bowl-type effects in Canada (more production on marginal land); then again, doesn't increased immigration do that anyhow? (Indeed, wouldn't it have worsened the strain on farming the Palliser Triangle already?) And when drought hits the Prairies in the '30s, with even more people...

Canada's involvement in World War I was, when proportional to the country's population

I've heard it exceeded any other nations as a percentage of pop.

full rights as Canadian citizens in every single way and equality with whites under the law

Without sacrificing Indian rights? (That was the OTL trade. And even voting rights for Native women were denied until 1962 OTL, IIRC.)

loudly supported in the West

Not where I live, you can bet.

I do think it's an excellent idea TTL, tho. Bravo.

Count me subscribed.

 

[TheMann]

RCAF
- Raptors (air superiority)
- Typhoons (multirole)
- Crossbows (strike)

That's pretty much what I have in mind. I flirted with the idea of the RCAF operating the A-10 Thunderbolt II, but I figure that the development of the Canadair CA-200 Vampire in the late 1970s and early 1980s (and its proving to be spectacularly effective in the hands of the Royal Marines in the Falklands) would render buying A-10s a bit of a waste of money.

As of the 2000s, the RCAF's workhorses for attack duties are the Tornado and F-111, as the Typhoons are still being delivered in the 2000s (and the Tornado will serve with the Typhoon for a while) and I'm anticipating the Crossbow not seeing service until the early 2010s. The Crossbow will replace the F-111s as they arrive (and allow the Tornados to eventually be retired), and the Raptors will replace the Tomcats on a one-for-one basis in the 2000s. The Raptors will follow Canada's acquiring AWACS aircraft in the 1980s (E-3 Sentrys with IAE V2500-series engines) and then replacing them in the 2000s with variants of the Bombardier WA Series.

RCN
- Typhoons (multirole)
- Super Hornets (air superiority/strike)

The RCN's Tomcats were rebuilt in the 1990s as the carriers went in for overhauls, so they will be good to go there until probably the early 2020s. I'm thinking the Tomcat-Tornado-Super Hornet trio is the RCN's fleet until the Tornados and Tomcats hit such an age that replacing them both with the Typhoon is a good idea, and a stealthy option for air superiority is available. Which brings us to....

Did not mention the Lightning II because fuck that bloated overbudget pile of wreck.

In this world, I doubt the US would tolerate such a mess. What I had in mind for the F-35 of this world is that the program starts with the Navy and Marines in the 1990s, and Lockheed's proposal for it uses two engines at the request of the Navy, resulting in a similar-design-though-a-little-wider fuselage and twin engines, along with the F-35 using much more common electronics with the F-22 to reduce development costs, and Lockheed Martin (remember that here they rely on RR-Orenda for engines and Canadair for components) trusts RR-Orenda and Hawker Siddeley to develop the LiftFan system, while RR Orenda also develops its own engine for it (RR Orenda PS.20 'Kainai') for Commonwealth versions.

The F-35 here is run much, much better than OTL. Lockheed Martin here worked out all of the problems with the airframe in the testing phase (thus removing many of the quality problems from OTL) and the twin-engined variants (particularly those with the PS.20 Kainai engines) have rather-better thrust-to-weight ranges, allowing both better acceleration and top speeds, and using many of the F-22s electronic components reduces most of the problems with electronics the F-35 has IOTL had to deal with. With these changes, the F-35 is a much better aircraft than OTL.

 

[redrobin65]

Hey TheMann, did you read the senate report?

file:///C:/Users/Owner/Pictures/Saved%20Pictures/SECDDPRReport_FINAL_e.pdf

Also, can we find out how many people are in this CF, branch by branch?

 

[Lost Freeway]

Good to see the F-35 be less of a dog ITTL.

 

[TheMann]

Just for everyone's information, ITTL Canada's Air Forces and Navy post-World War II use these planes, up to 2017:

Fighter/Attack
- De Havilland Vampire (1946-1959)
- Canadair CL-13 Sabre (1950-1965)
- Avro Canada CF-100 Canuck (1952-1974)
- Avro Canada CF-105 Arrow (1960-1993)
- McDonnell Douglas / Canadair F-4 Spey Phantom (1964-1988)
- Blackburn Buccaneer S.3 (1965-1991)
- LTV A-7 Corsair II (1967-2002)
- Grumman F-14 Tomcat (1982-present) [1]
- Panavia Tornado (1982-present) [1,3]
- McDonnell Douglas / Canadair CF-18 Super Hornet (2000-present)
- Eurofighter Typhoon (2006-present) [2]
- Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor (2007-present)
- Canadair CF-190 Crossbow (2011-present)
- Lockheed Martin / Bombardier CA-130B Vigilante (2012-present)

Bomber/Strike
- Handley-Page Victor B.4 (1964-1993)
- General Dynamics / Canadair CF-111 Skywarrior (1977-2015)
- Rockwell B-1B Lancer (1989-present)

Patrol/Anti-Submarine Warfare/Search and Rescue
- Lockheed P-2 Neptune (1953-1966)
- Canadair CP-126 Argus (1961-1994) [4]
- Canadair CP-140 Aurora (1993-present) [1,5]
- Canadair CP-192 Seahawk (2012-present) [6]
- Grumman / Canadair CP-121 Tracker/Super Tracker (1962-1988) [7]
- Grumman CSR-110 Albatross (1960-1974)
- ShinMarya US-2 Searchlight (2004-present)

AWACS/Electronic Warfare/Reconnaissance
- Grumman E-1 Tracer (1962-1972)
- Avro Canada CF-105R Reconnaissance Arrow (1969-2003)
- Grumman E-2 Hawkeye (1969-present)
- Grumman EA-6 Prowler (1977-present) [1,2]
- Boeing E-3C Sentry (1984-present) [2]
- Panavia Tornado ECR (1989-present) [1,2]
- McDonnell Douglas EA-18F Nightwatch (2012-present)
- Bombardier CE-194 Vision (2014-present)
- Canadair CE-198 Overlord (2016-present)

Transport
- Canadair C-4 North Star (1947-1965)
- Bristol Type 170 Freighter (1951-1965)
- Fairchild C-119 Flying Boxcar (1952-1965)
- De Havilland Comet (1955-1975)
- Vickers VC-7 (1957-2005)
- Canadair CC-106 Yukon (1959-1975)
- De Havilland Canada DHC-4 Caribou (1961-1975)
- Armstrong Whitworth AW.660 Argosy (1962-1989)
- Lockheed C-130 Hercules (1963-present) [8]
- Short Belfast (1964-1997)
- Dassault Falcon 20 (1967-1989)
- De Havilland Canada DHC-5 Caribou (1967-present)
- Lockheed L-1011 TriStar (1974-2005)
- de Havilland Canada Dash-7 (1977-2002)
- Boeing 747-200 (1982-2006)
- Canadair Challenger 600 (1985-present) [2]
- Aerospatiale/BAC Concorde B (1986-present) [2]
- Beechcraft Model 2000 Starship (1991-present)
- Kawasaki / Bombardier C-2 (1992-present) [9]
- McDonnell Douglas C-17 Globemaster III (1993-present)
- Airbus CC-176 (A400M) Atlas (1998-present)
- De Havilland Canada Dash 8 (2000-present)
- Vickers VC-16 (2003-present)
- Bombardier WA325 (2008-present)
- Boeing 747-8 (2014-present)

Tiltwing
- Canadair VS-145 Poseidon (1980-present)
- Canadair CA-200 Vampire (1983-present)
- Bell-Boeing V-22 Osprey (1997-present)

Trainer
- Lockheed T-33 Shooting Star (1949-1958)
- North American AT-6D Texan (1952-1964)
- Canadair CT-41 Tutor (1959-1987)
- Beechcraft CT-134 Musketeer (1970-1992)
- Hawker Siddeley Hawk (1985-present)
- Beechcraft T-6 Texan (2000-present)
- Bombardier Learjet 31A ZR (2002-present)

UAV
- General Dynamics RQ-4B Global Hawk (2001-present)
- Dragonflyer X4 (2008-present)

Helicopter
- Bell 47 (1948-1959)
- Boeing-Vertol CH-46 (CH-113) Voyageur (1964-1996)
- Bell UH-1 Iroquois (1964-2002)
- Westland Sea King (1965-2003)
- Boeing CH-47 Chinook (1967-present)
- Bell 206 Jet Ranger (1968-1996)
- Bell UH-1N Twin Huey (1971-2005)
- Westland Gazelle (1977-2008)
- Eurocopter AS565 Panther (1987-present)
- AugustaWestland EH101 (CH-149 Comorant) (1995-present)
- Sikorsky CH-148 Cyclone (1997-present)
- NHI NH90 TTH (1998-present)
- Eurocopter EC130 (2002-present)
- Boeing/Sikorsky RAH-66 Comanche (2012-present)

[1] Currently active in RCN service, though are scheduled for eventual replacement
[2] Currently active in RCAF service, though are scheduled for eventual replacement
[3] Canadian Tornados and Typhoons were assembled by Canadair
[4] The Canadair Argus on this world was based on the Vickers VC-7 rather than Bristol Britannia
[5] The Canadair Aurora in this world is the Kawasaki P-1, license-built by Bombardier Aerospace
[6] The Seahawk is based on the Canadair CL-275 Metroliner II
[7] Canadian Trackers were converted to turboprops during overhaul and improvement programs in the mid-1970s, and were replaced by the VS-145
[8] Earlier-model Hercules aircraft were replaced by the Antheus/Airmaster/Globemaster trio in the 1990s, though sixteen Super Hercules would rejoin the RCAF's airlifter fleet in 2007
[9] The CC-175 Antheus is a license-built Kawasaki C-2

 

[Leafninja91]

So I remember reading that the bullpup rife Canada adopted in the 50's was going to be replaced in the 90's/2000's. any word on what the replacement will be?

 

[Some Bloke]

CA130B Vampire?

 

[phx1138]

One idea I've been investigating (prompted by an idea of Ming777) on the capital ship front was that Canada and Australia would after WWI each take over one of the Admiral-class battlecruisers that were sitting on the slips after they were suspended after Jutland, with HMCS Canada and HMAS Australia being built as improved developments of the HMS Hood, with them not being considered part of the British naval limitations on the condition that they be the only capital ships to serve those nations. This you-can-only-have-one is accepted by Canada and they buy get the single big battlecruiser, but this variant of the Admiral-class vessel gets the better armor that was in the original design and switched the positions of the shellrooms and magazines (that flaw was the one that doomed Hood). The battlecruiser is mostly complete by the time of the Treaty, and the obsolescent ships of the navies involved are scrapped as a result.

After the war, out of a combination of nationalism, a desire to support the Empire, protecting the nation's extensive coastlines and keeping the naval force strong for both its members and those who jobs depended on supporting them, sees the Canadian Navy as a smallish but potent force built in the 1920s. Two Surrey-class heavy cruisers cancelled by Britain are built for the RCN in the 1920s, and four lighter cruisers are built in the mid 1930s to a Canadian design which uses British guns and weapons systems but Canadian diesel engines and skirts a tad on the WNT weight limit, but mounts eighteen 6" guns and eight 5.25" guns, giving the ships reputations as shell hoses, along with 30.5-knot top speeds and comparable light cruiser armor. The first two of these are finished before war breaks out, the last two finish early in the war. Canada also builds a quarter of dedicated seaplane carriers (these look like modern dock landing ships, but with twin catapults and cranes from seaplane recovery) for use as convoy escorts, for which they prove useful. This is in addition to no less than fourteen Tribal-class destroyers (all Canadian-built) and tons of smaller vessels, and a trio of Gato-class submarines modified for British torpedoes and using Robinson diesel engines. Thus, the RCN enters WWII ready to do damage, and the tons of smaller vessels built during the war makes sure Canada, when combined with tons of radar-equipped patrol planes out of Newfoundland and the convoy system, makes life really hard on the Atlantic U-boats during the war. Canada also builds and deploys six more of its modified Gatos during the war, and the Canuck sub fleet spends most of the War in the Pacific.

That even reasonably close to plausible?

I'm dubious the BB is a good call for Canada, expensive to operate & manpower-intensive as it is. The "fleet" suffers a major problem: training. OTL, RCN was incapable even of operating DDs for lack of trained manpower; TTL, with an earlier start, that might be possible. Subs, too, maybe. Then you hit an issue of manpower & cost, & in the Depression, those BBs & CCs are major white elephants...& training men for them is bound to get cut back (or off), if RCN survives at all.

As for the Gato boats, I'm wondering why RCN doesn't buy Brit S- or T-boats, instead--or build them under licence (unless the Canadian branch of EB, which built those H-boats in WW1 OTL, won't go along). Beyond incompatibility, I have to wonder how U.S. DoWar allows export of the design, even to a friendly country...

If the RCN *Gatos are in play, in PTO, they'd be at hazard from friendly air all the time...unless they operate out of Oz, & in that event, they'd probably end up in Indian Ocean or somewhere, anyhow, given English's boats having the best patrol areas pretty well locked up. Do you feature Aleutian ops out of Vancouver or Prince Rupert? Can you say, "Waste of manpower, money, time, & effort, & complete lack of sense"? Send whoever approves this to prison for criminal stupidity.

The other side of that, marine patrol a/c with radar from NF? That's Dönitz's worst nightmare. ( )

CBC did not share the BBC's highbrow tendencies

LOL. CBC ran concert orchestral music to such low ratings, it was getting beaten by the test pattern. CBC's sole winner for decades was "HNIC". And CBC was so insistent on monopoly, it's positively dictatorial. Competition? Never, if CBC had its way.

 

[TheMann]

CA130B Vampire?

I renamed it the Vigilante, which seems more appropriate considering its missions in any case. Think of it as a Canadian AC-130, built on the -30 model (with its 15' longer fuselage) with a strengthened airframe, bigger engines (a 6600-horsepower variant of the Pratt and Whitney PW150), every electronic countermeasure possible and a pile of weapons - two Mauser BK-27 autocannons (shared with the Eurofighter Typhoon), two 57mm Bofors guns (used on many smaller fast-attack vessels), a 105mm Denel G7 howitzer (lightened substantially to reduce airframe load) and racks for Hellfire anti-tank missiles.

It's not as electronically sophisticated as its American rivals (but is still plenty capable in that regard), but when it hits, it hits hard. The longer, stronger airframe allows somewhat more of an ammo load, and the use of the 27mm and 57mm guns compared to their American counterparts is greater accuracy and less spread of shot for the 27mm and greater punch for the 57mm, while the big G7 howitzer fires at faster velocity and has greater accuracy than the M102 in the American AC-130.

 

[TheTundraFox]

Hey Mann,

Two things to add. If you haven't mentioned already, how are Canadian Cuban relations? Does it remain consistently cordial? As shown in recents spats with Trump, does Canada and the US have strong differences and threats when it comes to certain industries in trade?

 

[SactoMan101]

One thing I'd LOVE to see in this timeline is Bombardier working with Gulfstream (if they exist in this TL!) on a supersonic business jet. Powered by two variable-cycle engines that has very low noise levels at low speed but with true supersonic performance, the new business jet seats 20 passengers, cruises at a maximum of Mach 1.6 (which reduces the need for high-temperature structural parts and allows more composite components), and has a range up to 6,000 nautical miles (which means non-stop to Beijing from Vancouver or one-stop flight from Montreal to Beijing). And because of its somewhat unusual shape of the fuselage, when the plane is flying overhead at Mach 1.6 at 57,000 feet there is essentially no sonic boom--the first plane certified by ICAO to fly up to Mach 1.4 fly over land and Mach 1.6 over the oceans. Operational since (I say) 2014, the first 50 production planes built were all for NetJets, the fractional aircraft ownership company owned by Warren Buffett. And the 51st plane built was delivered to actor John Travolta at the Pima Air Museum on the grounds of Davis-Monthan AFB, where he had just flown in the last airworthy Vickers VC-7 that belonged to him (it was an ex-Qantas plane) to be donated to the museum on the same day.

 

[phx1138]

The response to the problems was made rather worse by the reaction of Canada's government views of the day

That is an enormous understatement.

Bennett, however, would be little short of a disaster as Prime Minister. Facing calls for expansive relief efforts, Bennett's government's attempt at Imperial Preference trade policies fell flat on its face, and they simply didn't have a plan B. Making things worse was the Bennett government's harsh stance on Communism

Worse still was the universal faith in a balanced budget to solve the problem.

The trial, however, turned into an public embarassment when Buck was allowed to testify

At least he got the chance. The On-to-Ottawa Trekkers murdered by RCMP in Regina didn't.

RCMP and the Trekkers ended up battling in the streets

You mean where RCMP fired into peaceful marchers, don't you? Belief the leadership is Communist doesn't equate with making the march a free-fire zone.

the Progressives, despite not running a candidate in every riding, came out with just eight seats shy of a majority government

Against the Bay Street propaganda machine? I'm very dubious. Look what happened to Sinclair in California... Now, if it were true, you could get a response to the Depression not dissimilar to the one I'd take myself. And looking at your relief projects, you've picked several of the ones I would have, too.

Thinking of which, did you consider the Kemano power project?

I'm also thinking this leads to earlier Old Age Pension & Medicare.

And btw, what happens to Woodsworth and Douglas?

St. Lawrence Seaway...built to big dimensions

That suggests an earlier-than-OTL appearance of the 1000' Lakes freighters, & so the *Edmund Fitzgerald wreck sooner, too. Does that lead to a Woody Guthrie song, or does it have to wait for Gordy, still?

British Columbia Place for Vancouver and the Exhibition Stadium for Seattle

No love for the Riders? TTL, Taylor Field'd be too small. (And the Riders would be more than a longshot for the Grey Cup.)

Thinking of which, does Saskatoon get an NHL expansion team? Or a PCL team, when one of them leaves SF or L.A.? (I'd imagine one in Vancouver or Calgary, first, but...)

It started in Toronto...

Bravissimo. A truly inspired solution. (I wish I'd thought of it.)

A thought: does this impact the Canadian film, radio, & TV industry the way it did Hollywood?

notable anti-Semites (Frederick Blair most famously) found themselves almost ostracized from Canadian society

And Adrien Arcand, I presume? Or is he jailed?

I'll leave you guys to guess at which territories I'm talking about

First guess: Turks & Caicos. (Too obvious?) Bermuda?

Assuming they're even born, will Bob Marley, Nicki Minaj, or Rihanna be Canadian here?

Presuming it's not settled by now...I'd bet against Marley. If he is, it also means Ian Fleming ends up living & writing in Canada.(Tho, TBH, not a fan of Bond.)

I'm thinking it's too late for Johnny Pacheco & Harry Belafonte, both bn in '30s...

Canadian Car and Foundry sub-contracts to build stainless steel components for Budd Conestoga.

Licenced DC-3 makes more sense...

Earlier development of Low Altitude Parachute Extraction Systems

That's a pretty big jump in technique...

P.M. King soon tires of writting letters of condolence to orphans and widows of downed bomber crews. P.M. King refuses to train anymore Canadian turret gunners.

In the first place, he preferred aircrew to even expected higher losses in infantry. And in the second, Canada wasn't only training gunners...

Canadian diesel engine expertise also means they have more powerful engines and thus better mobility early on, too. I also had the idea of the Canadians and Australians early on fitting the Churchill tank with 76mm and then 90mm guns

With greater Canadian production capacity, & presuming Dunkirk happens more/less as OTL, it seems possible 6pdr &/or 17pdr could be built here, allowing a *Ram Firefly with diesel.

Alan Turing - he comes back after his homosexuality causes him legal issues in 1947-48

He's liable to have trouble at Queens, too; homosexuality wouldn't be legal in Canada for about a decade, IIRC. (And I'll leave off a remark about Queens...)

Kalman Tihanyi developer of the first electronic television system

TTL, I presume, Philo Farnsworth was hit by a truck (driven by Leonard McCoy...).

Part 9 - The Post-War World

I like this a lot. Peace Island was a really nice touch. So was Hull getting told off. So was Canada making the Security Council. I'm hoping the Franco-Canadian relationship helps move France toward commonwealth, & avoids war in Vietnam & Algeria. The collapse of Britain leaves me wondering if Canadian companies don't end up owning major British companies like (frex) Rolls-Royce or something. And what happens to German companies? Are they parcelled out to WAllies as reparations (booty by any other name....)?

Is it safe to presume Gouzenko still defects & Angleton is still a paranoid nutjob? Does he come after Crerar (as a "pinko"...) like he did OTL against Pearson & Wilson? Did the Sovs manage to infiltrate RCMP Security Service, as OTL?

NHL certainly will be. ...Saskatchewan Lightning

Tell me they play in Saskatoon... (BTW, not really a hockey fan, even.)

 

[TheMann]

At least he got the chance. The On-to-Ottawa Trekkers murdered by RCMP in Regina didn't.

You mean where RCMP fired into peaceful marchers, don't you? Belief the leadership is Communist doesn't equate with making the march a free-fire zone.

The marchers and the RCMP were both guilty of violence, though the marchers didn't have many guns among them, though they did use vehicles, rocks, bricks, molotovs and the like as well. Doesnt make it right, but the mess did end up being a real problem for the RCMP more than the marchers.

Against the Bay Street propaganda machine? I'm very dubious. Look what happened to Sinclair in California... Now, if it were true, you could get a response to the Depression not dissimilar to the one I'd take myself. And looking at your relief projects, you've picked several of the ones I would have, too.

By the 1930s, Welfare Capitalism had existed for decades in Canada, and so the Bay Street machine didn't have complete control of the media. The Toronto Star, for example, supported both the Progressives and the Liberals when it came to policy, and the Daily Globe did as well on some fronts.

Thinking of which, did you consider the Kemano power project?

Built as part of the relief efforts, began producing power in 1939. The big difference here is that a provision of the Treaty of Orillia required the people moved out from the project to be properly compensated, and they were originally compensated in both land and stock in both Alcan and BC Power. Most of the Cheslatta did just that (more than anything out of a desire to be able to influence the decision makers), and the WWII contracts and post-war boom made Alcan a pile of money, which subsequently made the Cheslatta quite wealthy. This was a common theme with British Columbia native tribes, and it has ensured that several communities in British Columbia (particularly those west of Prince George) have quite wealthy inhabitants. Kemano II was completed in 1969, but only after extensive studies into the ecosystems of the region which were ground breaking for the time, and de rigeur for such projects in the Canadian Rockies since then.

I'm also thinking this leads to earlier Old Age Pension & Medicare.

Old Age Pension, yes. Medicare didn't come until after the war.

And btw, what happens to Woodsworth and Douglas?

Woodsworth was Thomas Crerar's deputy leader and the Minister of Social Services during his government until he died in 1942, in the process being the creator of the Old Age Pension and being a developer of the Medicare idea, though it didn't get passed until some time after his death. Woodsworth did push forth the careers of M.J. Coldwell and Tommy Douglas, who would be Crerar's successors as the leaders of the Progressive Party.

Tommy Douglas was the Premier of Saskatchewan from 1944 until he headed to Ottawa in 1959, and was leader of the Progressive Party from 1959 until he retired in 1975. He was one of those who pushed forwards many of Woodsworth's ideals and policy proposals, and was a policy creator with few rivals during his time as the leader of the Progressives. Modern Canadian Medicare, made law across the country in 1956, stems from his work in Saskatchewan more than any other, and Douglas is credited with being of the chief backers of both the Medicare idea, a major supporter of development efforts in the Caribbean (and that legacy remains to this day, as the Progressives still are a powerful force in many of the Caribbean provinces) as well as the many federal and provincial natural resources funds. Douglas' retirement from the Progressive Leadership was followed by an appointment to the Privy Council by Robert Stanfield in 1976, a position he held until he died in 1986.

That suggests an earlier-than-OTL appearance of the 1000' Lakes freighters, & so the *Edmund Fitzgerald wreck sooner, too. Does that lead to a Woody Guthrie song, or does it have to wait for Gordy, still?

Never thought about that too much. I'll let you have that one.

Bravissimo. A truly inspired solution. (I wish I'd thought of it.)

A thought: does this impact the Canadian film, radio, & TV industry the way it did Hollywood?

Yep, doubly so after the war. Between the greater French Canadian influence, the Men of Honour and the Treaty of Orillia and its bringing of Native Canadians as much as possible into Canadian society, much changes in Canada's media and entertainment industries.

And Adrien Arcand, I presume? Or is he jailed?

Arcand was outright hated by the Crerar-Mackenzie King government, and he was sent to jail for advocating for fascism shortly after the outbreak of war, and the knowledge of the crimes of the Nazis made him a pariah after the war. He never went back to jail after the war, though he was shot in the chest by a Holocaust survivor in 1953 in Montreal. He lived from that (and the Holocaust survivor went to prison for it), but sank out of public life afterwards.

Presuming it's not settled by now...I'd bet against Marley. If he is, it also means Ian Fleming ends up living & writing in Canada.(Tho, TBH, not a fan of Bond.)

Both of them are born in what are British territories, though Marley does become a Canadian citizen early in Jamaica's time. He lives rather longer here, too, because his cancer was treated much earlier than OTL. He lost a toe to the cancer that IOTL took his life in 1977, but his cancer was gone for a long time after that as a result. His cancer came back badly in the late 1980s, and despite years of fighting it, he died of the cancer in Kingston in September 2002. That said, Marley was easily Jamaica's greatest musician and one of the most famous faces of Canada's media in the 1970s and 1980s. He became a member of the Order of Canada in 1984, and got his star on the Canada's Walk of Fame in 1989, and a Hollywood Walk of Fame star in 1991. His music was immortalized by the Canadian Museum of Civilization in 2002, shortly before his death.

With greater Canadian production capacity, & presuming Dunkirk happens more/less as OTL, it seems possible 6pdr &/or 17pdr could be built here, allowing a *Ram Firefly with diesel.

Correct.

He's liable to have trouble at Queens, too; homosexuality wouldn't be legal in Canada for about a decade, IIRC. (And I'll leave off a remark about Queens...)

True, but he wasn't given grief about it at Queens simply because they knew what he was capable of and felt that his mental abilities more than made up for any sexual deviancy of his.

TTL, I presume, Philo Farnsworth was hit by a truck (driven by Leonard McCoy...).

Nope. Farnsworth's initial ideas were advanced by Tihanyi, as Farnsworth's designs didn't have the definition to be able to create good image definition. Tihanyi developed that. Philo has a far better fate in this world, too - among other things, he gets a commission as a two-star general in WWII for developing radar and imaging technology, and got a major chunk of RCA stock for his patents, as well as his own company. When his company was bought by ITT in 1950, he became a sizable shareholder there. He bailed out of both firms before they hit trouble in the 1970s, having made himself a billionaire in the process, earning the nickname 'the world's richest scientist'. He died of cancer in Salt Lake City in 1984.

I''m hoping the Franco-Canadian relationship helps move France toward commonwealth, & avoids war in Vietnam & Algeria.

Unfortunately no, Vietnam and Algeria still end up being God-awful messes.

The collapse of Britain leaves me wondering if Canadian companies don't end up owning major British companies like (frex) Rolls-Royce or something.

Read on. Canadian investors are substantially involved at the remnants of British Leyland (now divided into Triumph Automobiles, Rover Group and Leyland Heavy Industries), Rolls-Royce merged with Orenda, they own the former coal mining companies outright and are massively invested in a lot of big-name British stocks. Canada's natural resource funds ITTL have something like six trillion dollars in the bank between them, and that money has to go somewhere. They'd rather spend it in the Commonwealth, too.

And what happens to German companies? Are they parcelled out to WAllies as reparations (booty by any other name....)?

Not much of this, largely because the Allies passed on a lot of the offers. About the only Canadian-involved example was BMW, as Native Canadian businessman Paul-Sebastian Neikan, who financied BMW's return to motorcycle and car production in the 1950s, and was the partner of the Quandt brothers when they consolidated BMW's stock in the early 1960s. The Neikan family today still owns 24% of BMW, and the family has been the chief distributors of BMW cars in Canada since then.

Paul-Sebastian's son Robert and daughter Krishelle were both enthusiastic racing drivers and sporting drivers, which had a direct effect on BMW's sporty car history, including the reviving of the BMW roadsters after the 507 with the 1966 BMW 508 and the sporty design and tuning of the "BMW New Class" cars of the 1960s and 1970s which evolved into the famed BMW 2002, and then the BMW 3 series. The cars were never built in Canada, though BMWs are quite common cars among Canada's higher echelons, and Canada's racing scene has never, ever, been with BMW involvement. Krishelle is also considered to be Canada's first great female racing driver, competing in BMWs in sports car racing on both sides of the Atlantic between 1957 and 1988, and making occasional races from then until retiring for fair in 2002.

Tell me they play in Saskatoon... (BTW, not really a hockey fan, even.)

I wasn't sure whether to put in Saskatoon or Regina, but that can be arranged....

 

[TheMann]

Hey Mann,

Two things to add. If you haven't mentioned already, how are Canadian Cuban relations? Does it remain consistently cordial? As shown in recents spats with Trump, does Canada and the US have strong differences and threats when it comes to certain industries in trade?

I wouldn't call it exactly cordial, because Canada isn't a fan of communism either. They are not openly hostile as the United States is, but Cuba's communism doesn't seem entirely kosher to Canada, particularly with their alliance with Soviet Union and having Canada or America on pretty much all sides.

Trade differences are a fact of life for the United States and Canada, namely as Canada remains somewhat protectionist in some fields and actively and lavishly supports its industrial challengers, though since 1989 there has been a trade council between the two countries to negotiate and mediate disputes. The United States absolutely despises Canada's substantial protectionism towards its natural resources, but being that said natural resource wealth has built Canada's modern economy, Washington has absolutely no chance of moving Canada off of that point. Canadian goods are rather expensive in the United States in many cases due to Canada's high dollar, but the high quality of the goods substantially counteracts this, and the United States is able to sell in Canada to a sizable degree. Despite that, Canada's huge natural resource wealth and strong manufacturing and value added sectors mean that Canada runs a large trade surplus with the United States.

One thing I'd LOVE to see in this timeline is Bombardier working with Gulfstream (if they exist in this TL!) on a supersonic business jet. Powered by two variable-cycle engines that has very low noise levels at low speed but with true supersonic performance, the new business jet seats 20 passengers, cruises at a maximum of Mach 1.6 (which reduces the need for high-temperature structural parts and allows more composite components), and has a range up to 6,000 nautical miles (which means non-stop to Beijing from Vancouver or one-stop flight from Montreal to Beijing). And because of its somewhat unusual shape of the fuselage, when the plane is flying overhead at Mach 1.6 at 57,000 feet there is essentially no sonic boom--the first plane certified by ICAO to fly up to Mach 1.4 fly over land and Mach 1.6 over the oceans. Operational since (I say) 2014, the first 50 production planes built were all for NetJets, the fractional aircraft ownership company owned by Warren Buffett. And the 51st plane built was delivered to actor John Travolta at the Pima Air Museum on the grounds of Davis-Monthan AFB, where he had just flown in the last airworthy Vickers VC-7 that belonged to him (it was an ex-Qantas plane) to be donated to the museum on the same day.

Gulfstream does exist in this world, and the Gulfstream GS900 / Bombardier Global Express 900 twins (same airplane, differing only in location of final assembly and nameplates, use the same type rating) are capable aircraft, using a choice of either RR-Orenda, General Electric or Honda variable cycle engines, a choice of great interiors from both makers and all the usual accommodations. The GS900 / Global Express 900 will soon be rivaled by the other twin supersonic business jet project in the Dassault Falcon 2SSX / Embraer Vision 2 pair, which is a rather different design though just as effective as the Gulfstream/Bombardier twins.

About Travolta, however, his VC-7 is by no means the last one flying out there. There are a few others out there owned by enthusiasts and museums that remain in flying condition. The list of the first retail customers of the GS900/Global Express 900 twins is impressive in its own right. The one delivered to Travolta was built by Gulfstream, while the first Bombardier-built one was delivered two weeks after Travolta's to basketball legend (and Toronto Raptors part-owner) Kevin Garnett, who accepted his at Buttonwillow Airport north of Toronto.

Gulfstream's early deliveries included famed race team owner and businessman Roger Penske, NFL legend Peyton Manning, supermodel Cindy Crawford, famed scientist Dr. Paul Washington, football star Lionel Messi and actress Jennifer Lawrence, while Bombardier's deliveries included Formula One World Champion Lewis Hamilton, former racing legend and now Ferrari Chief Engineering Officer Gilles Villeneuve, Bollywood alpha star Aishwarya Rai Bachchan, Prince Albert II of Monaco and famed movie producer/director James Cameron. The list of those who needed or wanted the fast jets is a big, big list indeed....